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Thread: How to turn current "enforcers nightmare" into enfo lub

  1. #1

    How to turn current "enforcers nightmare" into enfo lub

    Disclaimer: While this is game suggestion, please leave it be in 17.1 since it's more 17.1 related than game suggestion.

    Well, I thought a bit about current situation with absorbs and what was possible way how FC want it to do... And I was struck with idea...

    So, FC decided to nerf low-hp setups and make incentive for all to go high HP.

    Let's look as it is on test:
    (assuming 10k hp target with rrfe+3% from bio perkline)
    1. You attacked with let's say 20k pvm damage aimed shot.
    2. damage got reduced by reflects (13.4k)
    3. damage absorbed by layers (cocoon, 10k absorbed, 3.4k here)
    4. damage reduced by 50% pvp reduction (1.7k)
    5. damage reduced by nano guard/shielding/mech protection (not tested)
    6. damage capped to 40% (still 1.7k)
    7. damage capped to 13k special limit (still 1.7k)
    8. 0 damage = 1 damage rule makes it 1 damage hit.

    And here goes enforcer dream:
    1. You attacked with let's say 20k pvm damage aimed shot.
    2. damage capped to 13k special limit (13k)
    3. damage reduced by 50% pvp reduction (6.5k)
    4. damage got reduced by reflects (4355)
    5. damage absorbed by layers (cocoon, 4355 absorbed, 5645 remains)
    6. damage reduced by nano guard/shielding/mech protection (not tested)
    7. damage capped to 40% (0)
    8. 0 damage = 1 damage rule makes it 1 damage hit.

    How it'll affect pvp:
    1. Ultra-low hp setups are still removed from game by this fix.
    2. Max damage possibly done per 1 special attack on not low-hp setup will be locked to min(6.5k*reflects (7.5k for FA),40%) instead of (40%*reflects).
    This will mean boost for builds over (6.5k/40%)=16250 hitpoints due to fact they'll be at higher hp percentage after being hit by capped attack. Actually - 16250+ HP will practically lock it to enforcers (and they can get real boost for it), soldiers, docs and keepers. Other professions have less hp now but this change will make high HP desirable instead of making it penalty.
    This will also nerf reflect reduction on low-hp builds. It will completely negate rrfe effect for capped ASes on 11k- builds. If now (on 17.0.5) max hit on 4k hp NT under RRFE is 1120hp it'll be 1600 after this change. But it'll only affect them on high-damage hits. I.e. hit that have pvp potential of more than 40% of your HP will make more damage than it does on 17.0.5. And besides specials, MA crits and very few perks - there is no way to deal such amounts of damage in 1 hit.
    It'll also negate current broken situation when you can AS opponent in mech for 1k-4k damage.
    Cocoon will remain valuable tool, it'll be 2 capped special absorb instead of "absorb 10k and lose 40% of hp in 1 hit" as it is today.

    For agents and soldiers crying about "Onoz, our specials damage will be nerfed" - Since most profession/breed setups don't let you do real 6.5k+ ASes in pvp I hardly see it as a nerf for specials. In fact - capped specials damage will be increased on most current setups on receiving end.
    For enforcers it'll be pure lub patch. At last being with more HP will give them boost instead of just ASes capping for more.

    In PvM this patch won't affect any mob attacks on players but will make it impossible to AS 99%reflect mobs for 1k+. Again - in PvM it's not that big deal since you can't AS 1 mob more than once.

    P.S.: If this change will be applied - I ask to also move blockers check after "hit or miss" check, so people won't be exploiting it by hitting engi with ql1 melee weapon with 4 specials to waste it on engi.

  2. #2
    100% the same i suggested here so *bump*
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  3. #3
    This would turn a senseless absorb nerf into something actually good. Bump for this idea and bump for spec absorb to not be affected when attacker misses.

  4. #4
    Whilst capping the total damage single attacks could to to around 6.5K damage would benefit enforcers the fact of the change goes further than just large specials against cocoon. Whilst those are the most dramatic examples of how this nerf hurts enforcers, the wider problem is that all our absorbs are now halved in size, and this proposal of yours would do nothing to improve damage mitigation in the periods cocoon is on recharge, or against classes who do a lot of damage through regular hits and medium-sized perks.

    It's a good idea, but it hardly solves our problems which really go deeper than just having a duff cocoon. Chaining layers was the prime form of enforcer damage mitigation, and now that has diminished in effectiveness quite alarmingly.

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    Gimp is a state of mind, nerfest is a state of being.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyai View Post
    It's a good idea, but it hardly solves our problems which really go deeper than just having a duff cocoon. Chaining layers was the prime form of enforcer damage mitigation, and now that has diminished in effectiveness quite alarmingly.
    didn't see that point for enforcers, could you explain it to me? for NTs while having low (not ultra low) hp i see the problem.
    enforcer 20k hp no reflect
    now:
    capped hit 8k
    layer -745
    >7255 dmg
    with suggestion
    AS capped to 6,5k
    layer -745
    >5755 dmg
    FA capped to 7,5k
    layer -745
    >6755

    and non-capped hits are not affected. only problem for not-extrem-low-nts-but-not-max-hp-nts (and also other professions having a buffed layer) meaning having more than 2k and less then 16k hp wont gain a big benefit from their toolset anymore. yes it is still worse than now, but better than that what funcom wants to make. my golden dream (while using the current game mechanics) would be leave it like now, cap AS/FA to 6,5/7,5k and remove the -HP items. but i doubt funcom would make this for me
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  6. #6
    Currently on test all hits under absorbs take full PvM damage, so effectively our top absorb only reduces 373 damage. The other problem is that stuff like pets will now cut through cocoon in 2-3hits, which for an engineers pets is about 3seconds. It also means that stuff like shade perks+regular damage etc will bust open cocoon like an egg

    So whilst cocoon is really in the spotlight alongside the huge hits, the fact that all classes wil be breaking cocoon in a couple of regular hits too is being overlooked, as well as our other regular absorbs which have taken a 50% drop in effectiveness while everyone else is doing 10-15% more damage.
    Last edited by Kyai; Jan 30th, 2007 at 14:38:16.

    Enjoying RK4

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    Gimp is a state of mind, nerfest is a state of being.

  7. #7
    which probably is why it is called "test" Kyai.
    we can hope for a better solution for Enfos.
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  8. #8
    hm if I get kuz right, he has 50% pvp check before absorb reduction - so spamming layers would work as before.
    Tradition isn't about digging in the ashes - it means passing on the fire.

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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by kuznechik View Post

    And here goes enforcer dream:
    1. You attacked with let's say 20k pvm damage aimed shot.
    2. damage capped to 13k special limit (13k)
    3. damage reduced by 50% pvp reduction (6.5k)
    4. damage got reduced by reflects (4355)
    5. damage absorbed by layers (cocoon, 4355 absorbed, 5645 remains)
    6. damage reduced by nano guard/shielding/mech protection (not tested)
    7. damage capped to 40% (0)
    8. 0 damage = 1 damage rule makes it 1 damage hit.
    While I understand the need to help enfos overcome the major loss of cocoon, this would also make AS even more overpowered than it already is, at least at lower levels. Atm reflects help to reduce ASs to 28% of max hp, but if 40% cap is going to be applied after reflects (like it is on test now from what I heard), agents (and some other profs as well) are going to be hitting ppl with medium hp for 40% all the time It's not like AS needs a boost imho...

    So, I'd rather have reflects to be applied AFTER the 40% cap, as it is atm.

  10. #10
    the reflect is just the seconday issue for us enf's - so I'd take it even if the reflect reduction was moved to the bottom.
    well - as long as 13k cap and 50% pvp-reduction stay on top of absorb I'd be satisfied... even 50% before 13k would be ok; I understand that adv's need to be nerfed :P
    Tradition isn't about digging in the ashes - it means passing on the fire.

    Polarbaer with his crappy stuff

  11. #11
    well i dont know if it is possible to code...but the reason for reflect befor layers is, that the layer should be "guarded" by the reflect. if it is possible to calculate that reflect affect both the absorb and the hp afterwards, the reflect calculation can be of course after the 40% cap. but otherwise it would nerf the absolutly not overpowered layertactic of enfos
    AoC vs WoW

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  12. #12
    I don't see a compelling reason to nerf any specials besides AS. FA especially, as it checks against evades for every single bullet, and the first check made means everything else misses. Any soldier can tell you how frustrating it is to get a 0 bullet FA on the many grey mobs around.
    Overall though, something should be done, because consider that NTs could actually have trouble with cocoon profs before. After this patch, NTs will rip through cocoon in 1 hit too.

  13. #13
    I must admit, in my testing, FA hasn't been getting close to AS in damage. THe fact that it can miss hurts it a lot, so although it still has the potential in the current build to do 25K damage, the average will be lower than AS I expect.

    Still, nothing should 1-shot cocoon

    Enjoying RK4

    STATUS OF SKY: Not Falling


    Gimp is a state of mind, nerfest is a state of being.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyai View Post
    I must admit, in my testing, FA hasn't been getting close to AS in damage. THe fact that it can miss hurts it a lot, so although it still has the potential in the current build to do 25K damage, the average will be lower than AS I expect.

    Still, nothing should 1-shot cocoon
    with hp setup (32k) I get hit for 10k+ FAs.. would still be 10k in cocoon and 5k hp.. that is a lot imo.
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    Soldios - [Soldier] FA Burst 220/22
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  15. #15
    If funcom decided to move layers before 40% they can't keep reflects after 40% and absorbs after reflects and 40% after absorbs.

    You also must consider that not every AS is capped, even for agents.
    Yes, it'll make incentive to go high-HP setup.
    At the moment - high-HP is viable for: soldiers, docs and engineers. All other profs will live more happy with less HP (as long as they aren't tripled).
    After introducing of izgimmer triple and quickly after creating of IU+IT combo - every1 is interested in more HP (except NTs), so - let make it less forbidding to gain such high HP.

    With such proposal people who is hit with 13k+ pvm AS will look like this: 16'250+ hp will benefit from it, 11'375- will be hit for 40% of hp even under rrfe, 11'375-16'250 will have effect of rrfe diminished a bit.
    For 10k AS for example these numbers are reduced to 12'500 and 8'750 hp

    P.S.: And since backstab/SA/Dimach have same ability to scale as AS (less for dimach) - I guess all specials must be trated this way. Getting high special going off will mean that you negated part of reflects on low or mid HP builds.
    Last edited by kuznechik; Jan 30th, 2007 at 16:00:48.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyai View Post
    I must admit, in my testing, FA hasn't been getting close to AS in damage. THe fact that it can miss hurts it a lot, so although it still has the potential in the current build to do 25K damage, the average will be lower than AS I expect.

    Still, nothing should 1-shot cocoon
    same could be said about tripler....and players
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Harios View Post
    with hp setup (32k) I get hit for 10k+ FAs.. would still be 10k in cocoon and 5k hp.. that is a lot imo.
    I agree; what I mean is that FA isn't going to be consistently doing the stupid damage numbers, although AS will. I did some testing with a 220-30 sold on test just earlier and only got two FAs over 10K; compared to AS where there were next to none under 10K

    Enjoying RK4

    STATUS OF SKY: Not Falling


    Gimp is a state of mind, nerfest is a state of being.

  18. #18
    Fixahgirl hit you for 10850 points of Full Auto damage.

    even a lucky non 220 fixer can hit 10k... **** THAT and wtb reflects
    Harios - [Enforcer] cookies 220/30
    Advass - [Adventurer] nerf 220/21
    Wackios - [Shade] gankzsz 220/16
    Soldios - [Soldier] FA Burst 220/22
    Docios - [Doctor] healsplxz 220/20
    Cratios - [Bureaucrat] tape 220/19
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  19. #19
    Zicku hit you for 11238 points of Aimed Shot damage.
    Fixahgirl hit you for 10700 points of Full Auto damage.

    i went hp setup with 17.1 in mind... we are not gonna like this
    Harios - [Enforcer] cookies 220/30
    Advass - [Adventurer] nerf 220/21
    Wackios - [Shade] gankzsz 220/16
    Soldios - [Soldier] FA Burst 220/22
    Docios - [Doctor] healsplxz 220/20
    Cratios - [Bureaucrat] tape 220/19
    Proud Board Member of Dark Front Cookies >> Bacon, remember that!

  20. #20
    The point I'm trying to distinguish between FA and AS is that hitting a high multiplier on an AS is a lot easier than hitting with a full clip from an FA. In my testing the soldier was haing a hard time landing more than 12 bullets or so. While this would be a cap it isn't a full cocoon+cap; AS on the other hand will do full cocoon+cap very frequently from what I'm seeing. That said, neither attack should go straight through cocoon, cap afterwards or no.

    I realised that in its current state an agent could be fighting me and not actually be able to tell that I have used cocoon, if his AS/perks behaves as if it doesn't exist. Same for many other profs.

    Enjoying RK4

    STATUS OF SKY: Not Falling


    Gimp is a state of mind, nerfest is a state of being.

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