17.2 beast/perk changes

[FixerPorta]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's pretty g*d d**n amazing that on one hand the game came pretty close to death because they rushed the LE "expansion" and we have given them s*** for it for 2 months straight (me included I dare say) telling them they should not have rushed it... and now some are asking why they can't rush these patches through? Really? Are some of you really questioning why they can't rush some of 17.2 here?

Calm down, relax, and wait for them to release it on their schedule. I am no fanboi, so don't start that. I just think it's really great that FC is now trying to communicate with us and tell us what is coming around the corner. I don't want them to go back to their old ways of not telling us s**t because you guys are being d**b a***s, so stfu please and let it come when it comes.

Thx

[xTwotwentyx]

(I hope I don't get banned for this)
I opened one of the Files up, it really is a bunch of coding, not very neat...

Some of the programs you use these days are very simple Texts and is quite easily edited (changed the gravity in one game)...
you have a look at the older ones, and they are really messed up...
To change the "24" to a "2" you have to look through a text file that is about 100 pages long, and even then there's a load of crap in the file....
Probably gonna be flamed for this, but if you think you know coding....open Gamecode.dll in the Anarchy online folder and try to understand that...
(but w/e you do, Do NOT change ANYTHING)

[Abalz]

Well, all I can say is you have picked up some very bad habits for development in a complex system environment. I sure hope you aren't working on anything life or business critical with that attitude. And please, don't teach the interns to do things that way...

Hmm so you're suggesting that AO Devs probably have the beast spawn timer variable in 1000000 places and they need 3 weeks to change every single one of them or what..? I don't see the problem. Why would storing this variable in one managable place (in a db table, or xml file.?) be a 'bad habit'?

[Ashram]

(I hope I don't get banned for this)
I opened one of the Files up, it really is a bunch of coding, not very neat...

Some of the programs you use these days are very simple Texts and is quite easily edited (changed the gravity in one game)...
you have a look at the older ones, and they are really messed up...
To change the "24" to a "2" you have to look through a text file that is about 100 pages long, and even then there's a load of crap in the file....
Probably gonna be flamed for this, but if you think you know coding....open Gamecode.dll in the Anarchy online folder and try to understand that...
(but w/e you do, Do NOT change ANYTHING)

Yeah, because its not like Gamecode.dll has already been compiled or anything.

And anyway, while its more difficult than most people think it is, as long as the coders in the past named variables appropriately, it shouldn't be too hard to locate it. The variable -SHOULD- have perk in its name, and looking for a variable with perk in its name and 24 as its value shouldn't be too hard.

[xTwotwentyx]

And anyway, while its more difficult than most people think it is, as long as the coders in the past named variables appropriately, it shouldn't be too hard to locate it. The variable -SHOULD- have perk in its name, and looking for a variable with perk in its name and 24 as its value shouldn't be too hard.

thats called Pyhoon? forgot what its called, a friend knows all about that....
I highly doubt what I am looking at now is "pyhen" or "pyhoon"....but I don't speak norweigon so

(Compare Dll files from deus ex invisible war and AO)

[Healyhatman]

Python?

[XenonDe]

Well Hatez.. you don't open DLL files with a normal editor. They are compiled, as most files of any program are.

Python is a "old" programming language. Many games nowadays use a similar "system" in scripts. These files are interpreted at the runtime of a application as they are supposed to be changed easily.
The files of other games you looked at were most likely such files.
The Core of these other games, their dll and exe files for examples, is still compiled - just as the code from AO is.

Anyway you can't just read the Code of games like these by opening them in the editor as what actually is machine code telling your machine what to do. (well, didn't find a better way of putting it)


@topic
It sure seems easy to change the number for the spawn in the code, but i've learned by now not to assume that for old program code.
I'm not sure what kind of system AO has in use, but the export seems to mess up often, prolly due to the inter-related nature of the sourcecode and Database of AO.

[CarbonumCopy]

Hmm so you're suggesting that AO Devs probably have the beast spawn timer variable in 1000000 places and they need 3 weeks to change every single one of them or what..? I don't see the problem. Why would storing this variable in one managable place (in a db table, or xml file.?) be a 'bad habit'?

No matter how you have things coded, making changes that aren't absolutely necessary in a release package after testing has commenced (and after you have already started the next release) is a bad habit.

And given then age, size, and number of patches that have happened over the years...I doubt anything in AO is as clean as <spawntimer mob="The Beast" time="18" timeunits="hours" spawnchance="1.0" />

[Abalz]

No matter how you have things coded, making changes that aren't absolutely necessary in a release package after testing has commenced (and after you have already started the next release) is a bad habit.

Again you haven't really pointed out where my personal bad habits are.. you've only superimposed my simple proposal on FC's bad habits and called them mine. This is because if you need to test the spawn timer more than twice on each server, then there is something wrong with variable management.

And given then age, size, and number of patches that have happened over the years...I doubt anything in AO is as clean as <spawntimer mob="The Beast" time="18" timeunits="hours" spawnchance="1.0" />

You're right, they probably aren't. Also since Devs/Director has changed hands so many times, its probably not even uniform. This is FC's bad habits, not mine.

[FoolishManX]

Don't get me wrong, I love that perk restets will go down to 2 hours, but that means I still need to be next to my PC for so many hours to maximize from this. Yeah, I know shouldn't complain when it used to be a nightmare (72 hours!) but I would of loved to have the option to do a complete perk reset every 24-72 hours. That way I don't need to camp my PC.

Either way FC thanks for listening to our suggestions. It makes AO that much sweeter.

[Alternity]

thats called Pyhoon? forgot what its called, a friend knows all about that....
I highly doubt what I am looking at now is "pyhen" or "pyhoon"....but I don't speak norweigon so

(Compare Dll files from deus ex invisible war and AO)

Go away please, your an annoyance.

[xTwotwentyx]

Go away please, your an annoyance.

Go away please, I didn't say anything worth you flaming me....
I do have a slight knowledge in coding....

[CarbonumCopy]

Again you haven't really pointed out where my personal bad habits are.. you've only superimposed my simple proposal on FC's bad habits and called them mine. This is because if you need to test the spawn timer more than twice on each server, then there is something wrong with variable management.

You're right, they probably aren't. Also since Devs/Director has changed hands so many times, its probably not even uniform. This is FC's bad habits, not mine.

Again, I hope you never work on anything life or business critical. Real systems of the age and patch history of AO always have an accumulation of bad coding practices. Your original claim that it is so simple that the delay must be some sort of financial plot is just totally ludicrous. Your bad habit is simple: demanding an unsafe, but optional, change be included in a release, just because you want it NOW.

[Abalz]

Again, I hope you never work on anything life or business critical. Real systems of the age and patch history of AO always have an accumulation of bad coding practices. Your original claim that it is so simple that the delay must be some sort of financial plot is just totally ludicrous. Your bad habit is simple: demanding an unsafe, but optional, change be included in a release, just because you want it NOW.

Even if I am demanding it NOW (which I never have), how does that mean I have bad coding habits? It doesn't at all. You don't know anything about me, projects I work on, or how I manage them. And obviously they way you work is in my opinion really wrong. You seem to think once a change is slated for a release, that is IT, and no changes can ever be made to that slate, no matter how easy the change is.

That is wrong. How easy it it to sit down, have a meeting, agree that changing one variable requires less than 5 minutes of coding, and a few spawn test runs, then agree to move it up to 17.1 because its so simple? Its really easy to do that.

That scenario assums the said code is easy to change. Obviously it either is a huge mess, and somehow could break other spawn timers, OR a financial ploy to milk us dairy cows for more rent. Now since the code is probably a mess, its FC's bad coding habits.. however it has nothing to do weather or not I work on business critical programs.... I don't see how you can even try to argue with me.

[CarbonumCopy]

I know enough, just from your postings in this thread, that I don't want to rely on any software if you were part of the QA/release process. Especially since you are so sure you know how simple something is in code you've never seen. Code that has been modified countless times over several years.

Changes are sometimes necessary after a version freeze, but there are two rules that apply. Only make a change if you really have to, and if you've made a change, your prior testing is invalid. No matter how "safe" you think the change is. Every bug is code that the writer thought was perfectly correct (presuming they aren't just hoping not to get caught.)

If you are so sure how incompetent and/or crooked Funcom is, why are you still playing?

On the original topic: good changes, but don't rush them out until they are ready. And Sil, please keep giving out preliminary info for the rest of us, even if a few malcontents do their best to make you regret it.

[Raynefists]

It's obvious parts of LE didn't get tested well enough (research procs, anyone?) but that's no reason to keep rushing things out a bit prematurely.

You're right, it's not a reason, it just seems a bit...odd, since their general policy has always been to rush things through.

When we are paying for it, they're happy to push major game changes out the door with zero to very little testing, but when it's a small change to a system that has been working successfully for years, they have to completely retest the entire zone(?

[Healyhatman]

Maybe they're changing their practices? If you REALLY wanted it I suppose they could leave it all how it is, that sound good to you?

Because it doesnb't to me. Patience you must have, hmmm?

[Abalz]

I know enough, just from your postings in this thread, that I don't want to rely on any software if you were part of the QA/release process. Especially since you are so sure you know how simple something is in code you've never seen. Code that has been modified countless times over several years.

Ha so you going from calling me a terrible software coder to basically a worthless statement that means nothing.. you agree that I assume everyone codes as perfectly as I do and has code that anyone could manage if they wanted, however you agree that FC doesn't code that way, maybe for job-security (code crappy so that they are they only ones who can adjust things in due-time)...

Changes are sometimes necessary after a version freeze, but there are two rules that apply. Only make a change if you really have to, and if you've made a change, your prior testing is invalid. No matter how "safe" you think the change is. Every bug is code that the writer thought was perfectly correct (presuming they aren't just hoping not to get caught.)

No sense, at all.. maybe you should explain. And since you claim there are two roles that apply, maybe number them and write them out plainly, since I can't pick them out of this paragraph.

If you are so sure how incompetent and/or crooked Funcom is, why are you still playing?

If you really understood what I've posted, in this thread I'm assuming that FC are perfect coders, and that everything is uniform and managable - and that the changes should only take a few moments.. YOU are the one pointing the fact that "ah yes, AO code is 6 years old, it is probably a bag of monkey poooo" -

On the original topic: good changes, but don't rush them out until they are ready. And Sil, please keep giving out preliminary info for the rest of us, even if a few malcontents do their best to make you regret it.

Yes like LE? lol @ you. 2 month later we are still fixing the major addition to the expansion (perks).

[Raynefists]

Maybe they're changing their practices?

after 6 years and 3 different game designers? don't think so.

[deniska]

Well, all I can say is you have picked up some very bad habits for development in a complex system environment. I sure hope you aren't working on anything life or business critical with that attitude. And please, don't teach the interns to do things that way...

Actually he is right. Storing such things as respawn timers in one global header makes perfect sense. Are you going to make assumptions on my coding skills as well?