Fix Initiatives! (Except Nano)

[locomdenom]

This is gonna come off a little harsh, Stromm, but try not to take it as a personal attack so much as my view in general... you know I got respect for you.

I don't care about scopers.

So they'll have to find a new optimal combo. Sniff, sniff. So the high level PvPers will have to go to a different weapon. Sniff, sniff.

Scopes aren't hard to get; they are IMPOSSIBLE to get. Easy enough to buy, but impossible to get. You get the difference?

You're right; I do want scopes gone. I don't think items that are impossible to get more of (not to get, to get more of) should be required for PvP. So, if FC decides to make a change where the only negative recipients are high level PvPers, I'm fine with that.

As to your comments on the Manex... I don't think it'll ever become 'uber'. Burst recharge on the thing is INCREDIBLY slow. It'll be better than an MCS in duels and PvM at high RI, but in prolonged combat it'll probably be about equivalent. Besides which, if you're PvPing with an SMG as a GA fixer, you might as well use a Sol and sit at low aggdef with a 1/1 fire rate.

Oh, and the Manex will *never* become 1/1. You'd need 1500 RI to do that. Who's got 1500 RI?

[frakk2k]

Hey, if they would make my init affect my recharge, my True Katana would be awsome! To bad its not that uber now :/

*still awaits his West Wind Katana*

[engelstein]

Even a raged-up enforcer with a TIM scope and triple implanted RI only has about 1330.

[locomdenom]

Believe Hextorr said that he got up to around 1200 RI at level 200 as a fixer... assume that includes TIM scope and triple-implant, don't know what else.

[Mercatura]

For any skill:

200 with green (5/lev 5.0-7.0) ~720
200 with light blue (4/lev 7.5-12.0) ~660
200 with dark blue (4/lev 12.5-16.0) ~600
200 with pitch black (3/lev, 16.5-20.0) ~540

Used solitus + maxed abils, close enough.

Triple Implant: 210

TIM: 180 (RI only)
OS: 133
RS: -200 lol
etc (auno.org doesn't list all rage mods or something)

I want a damn WWK too

[locomdenom]

Hmmm... wonder how Hex got his to 1200, then, as a fixer.

TIM, OS, 200 and triple-implanted... Avangeline, Kevlar? Don't know. Wish he was still around to ask him.

[Mercatura]

660 + 210 + 180 + 133 is ~1200

Being opifex, journeyman boosts, ability implants/buffs can give you a few more.

[stromm]

Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
This is gonna come off a little harsh, Stromm, but try not to take it as a personal attack so much as my view in general... you know I got respect for you.

I don't care about scopers.

So they'll have to find a new optimal combo. Sniff, sniff. So the high level PvPers will have to go to a different weapon. Sniff, sniff.

Scopes aren't hard to get; they are IMPOSSIBLE to get. Easy enough to buy, but impossible to get. You get the difference?

You're right; I do want scopes gone. I don't think items that are impossible to get more of (not to get, to get more of) should be required for PvP. So, if FC decides to make a change where the only negative recipients are high level PvPers, I'm fine with that.

As to your comments on the Manex... I don't think it'll ever become 'uber'. Burst recharge on the thing is INCREDIBLY slow. It'll be better than an MCS in duels and PvM at high RI, but in prolonged combat it'll probably be about equivalent. Besides which, if you're PvPing with an SMG as a GA fixer, you might as well use a Sol and sit at low aggdef with a 1/1 fire rate.

Oh, and the Manex will *never* become 1/1. You'd need 1500 RI to do that. Who's got 1500 RI?

Heh will im going to try and work my way around the scope issue since the debates about llts are always so circular nowadays. But if this is gonna make the scopes useless why have them in the game at all.

But before they do so the loss of all these crit weapons like the ithaca, well they need to implement new guns to make up for the lack of ability to crit when/if the change is in place. Diamondine kick pistol is a good start but that still has not been found (i think?)

But if rechg works the same as attack and a mcs which has 3.00 attack can get to 1/1, i suppose i am wrong then manex cannot get to 1/1 attack/recharge but perhaps it could get to 1.5sec..Still very fast for a gun that does 1-650. Imho manex is only a duel gun for me or if im being bunker camped, i dont care for weapons with low range with the exception of the mcs.

Post wasn't harsh at all btw...

[locomdenom]

Merc: And to think I do math for a living.

Mmm. Well, I tend to over-estimate my bastardry, I guess.

I think guns to make up for crit-ability are there already, or becoming there. The MTI Martins would have been a good assault rifle in this regard (before it got removed :/ - smooth one, FC, remove the gun that does the same damage as a Div9 because it isn't balanced, yeah), Manex or Mausser for SMGs, BBIs for pistol-users, Home Defenders for the shotty-*hores, CHS/Nova/Martins (please?) for AR folk, seems to be some choices for the ranged crowd already. For melee, I don't know it so well, but I suspect there're choices there as well (1HB isn't a critters game from what I've seen, the beam doesn't *need* to crit to be good, 1HE I don't know, 2HE I don't know).

I agree with you. If scopes are gonna be made useless, why have them at all?

Dunno. I just don't see a downside to this.

[Mercatura]

Dunno. I just don't see a downside to this.

Change in game fundamentals + Funcom's Patch History = Uhoh

[_______________Nieth]

2he is not a PvP wep choice for high lvls, unless u have an EoT
having just tested piercing (2 q200 kiddys) it is pretty dab as well
haven't tried 1he yet, it's coming soon to an AO near you tho

[Zed Dabucho]

so why does init not effect nano recharge to? i though that is what init is for, your inital attack. the recharge should not change because you have a high init. attack. if it should effect the recharge then it should be acrose the boards. AKA weapons, fist, nano. not just weapons and fist.

so what i am asking is what does INIT do. is it just for the inital attack or the attack in whole. because if it is then my recharges for my nano's i cast should be hella fast which they are not.

i can cast my heals so fast it hurts. (980 nano init) but the recharge is crazy slow. just something i have to ask.

[locomdenom]

Nano init works completely differently from weapon init, always has.

Nano init: -1s to attack per 200 NI. (I think?) Recharge is always the same.

Weapon inits: -1s to attack per 600 RI, -1s to recharge per 300 RI gained via spending IP (recharge currently bugged to not be modified by implants, ability trickledown, etc.)

[Beartwo]

I didnt buy my scope and my RI is high enough so my rate of fire wont change.

But why was this needed? Were scopes overpowered? With dmg as bad as it is for mid range soldiers, who do not have enough atk rating or any crit buffs... I think not.
For the "masters of ranged combat" it has just become even more impossible to kill their shopkeeping opponents.

The only masters of ranged combat around are traders and agents. Anyone using a 66/33 based weapon needed a scope to be able to tickle them before they themselves died.

This wont affect me, but I fail to see the reason as to why you want scopes out. With UVC gone for the rest of us. MA`s became even more uber. They have a very high atk rating which defines the dmg they do, they are already at extreme speed, and they can still equip a scope for even more crits... And still remain at extreme speed....

Please tell me how this does not make a high lvl MA more uber?

Make dmg 100%... thats the only reasonable way to balance this game and get some excitement back.

Facing a soldier who unloads a full alpha in your face is supposed to be scary, now its just silly. Same goes for an agent who slaps you with 2 AS`s or even 3.... You arent supposed to survive it!

At least with dmg back to full each profession would have its main abilities back.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Beartwo
I didnt buy my scope and my RI is high enough so my rate of fire wont change.

But even someone whose scope doesn't make their init negative will have to push their agg/def further towards full agg in order to be firing at 1/1.

But why was this needed? Were scopes overpowered? With dmg as bad as it is for mid range soldiers, who do not have enough atk rating or any crit buffs... I think not.
For the "masters of ranged combat" it has just become even more impossible to kill their shopkeeping opponents.

Actually, the change isn't about old scopes at all. And it's not even primarily about PvP. It's about combat initiative skills not working as Funcom intended for everyone, people who don't have scopes, people who have vision enhancers, and for PvM too. It's not a nerf. It will improve the all-around effectiveness of having a high initiative skill, especially for using a scope. It will therefore, in general, help soldiers and enforcers and fixers and MAs. The people it will hurt are people who have a low initiative skill and are using scopes, or people who are sitting at low agg/def with a scope and a fast gun. Like doctors, engineers, crats, and NTs with missile pistols and ithacas.

What is happening right now in-game is that people who implant initiative and buff initiative are only reaping part of the benefit. And people who are putting on scopes are only taking part of the initiative penalty. Once the fix is applied, we'll get the full benefit of buffs and implants for initiative. And we'll take the full penalties of wearing scopes. The professions with green or aqua inits can reduce/negate the penalty for wearing a big scope, but the professions with dark inits can't.

[Eurus]

The problem with just putting damage back to 100% is that not just those professions will get their attacks back. At levels over 150 anybody with the whim can AS, SA, or FA for 10k. That doesn't help to make Soldiers or Agents or Enforcers/Adventurers with SA weapons any better off or closer to their purpose. These specials work too much off the wepon's stats and not enough off the skill investment. Which means so many 'non-combat' profs can use these specials as well as those who've devoted themselves to it.

Plain and simple, the gret plateau that occurs at high levels robs specifically the Soldier and the Agent of the skill specializations that made them unique. Why play a high level sniper style Agent if a Trader od Doctor can AS for 10 as often as you can? OR a Soldier if a Crat can FA, Burst, Fling for as much as you can? Why suffer with the hard to raise nano skills of the Soldier if at 200 anyone can do what you do just with different nanos? What nanos I use should not be the only defining thing for my prof. So I feel that those skills should be more reliant on the skill itself and less on the weapon so that these people can again be the best at what they do. Not just the same but with different nanos.

[Peisinoe]

Beartwo, I agree that if this change is brought alone, it will definitely widen the gap between MA damage output and most other profs. However, I think (operative word being 'think') Funcom is also trying to change their new weapons to have higher base damage and lower crits. If this is true, then the gap won't shorten...but at least it won't widen much more.

No offense Eurus, but if you think any prof such as a doctor/mp/nt can do similar WEAPON damage to an agent/soldier, you're delusional. That's it. *shrug*I do agree that the specials skillset should have not only an effect on the chance of high damage, but also increase the special damage as well. They would have to retweak them though since it's already fairly too easy to get 10k.

While this isn't really a nerf, it will require some serious THOUGHT by Funcom about weapon damage values. People go the crit route because base damage just can't even come close to comparing to crit values. New weapons try to raise base damage while lowering crit damage...step in the right direction, but not enough yet. Shorten the gap, otherwise this patch will make the already sick gap between certain profs in damage output...sicker.

[Beartwo]

I know what they are fixing and a fix is ok, but htis has not been given enough thought!!!

There will be a lot of characters out there that rely purely on damage that will be hit very hard. Both by the loss of being able to use a scope and by the fact that healing profs have (once again) gained an advantage.

I see no problem in putting dmg back to 100% regardless of what prof you are. If you are running around in a 25% zone without any shields you arent very smart. IF we had 100% dmg we would have a chance to kill our opponent. That chance isnt even there atm.

If some agent or trader hits me with a lucky 10k I will still be standing, maybe not for long, but RRFE and what little bracers we have left will protect me enough for me to try to retaliate.

TMS will actually have meaning and enfs will actually be able to use their insane hp`s. There would actually be an incentive to use your professions specific abilities in pvp, much more than now.

The weapons we have seen so far (even the extinct Martin) are totally useless without crits. Not a single one has the damage output to fight an MA or a trader.

Atk rating influences crit chance when measured against evades. so a trader with 1200-1400 atk will still do immense dmg. Far out of proportion to the description given by FC in the first place.

The MA doesnt even need high atk rating (but can easily get it) since he`s happily running UVC, TTS and using a 15% scope.

The removal of the option to use any scope for those who cant get enough init will lessen their dmg to virtually nothing.

Try firing a ql 200 Nova without crits...and maybe debuffed by 415 and see what the results are.

The damage you do is between 1 and 300 somewhere, add to that the fact that everyone and his bunny is running RRFE and the equation becomes impossible.

As for the other profs using assault class weapons or shotties with high crits, they will suffer too, but not MA, and not trader.

Please understand that I am not speaking for myself since this will not affect me adversely, I have over a year in this game and I think I might know something about what its like to play a damage reliant profession through all levels. (up to 187 =P)

I will benefit from this fix since the buffs will be calculated into my Rate of fire, but below 150 the soldiers will be hit hard.

I found the removal of old type scopes silly in the first place. Since UVC nerf had done away with other professions ability to get a very high crit chance.

Whats left is MA`s (since they have the buffs still) and traders (due to their insane atk rating.

The fix will unbalance those two profs from the others and if any dmg reliant prof should have a chance to go up against one they would need far more damage than is available to them now and in the forseeable future.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Eurus
The problem with just putting damage back to 100% is that not just those professions will get their attacks back. At levels over 150 anybody with the whim can AS, SA, or FA for 10k. That doesn't help to make Soldiers or Agents or Enforcers/Adventurers with SA weapons any better off or closer to their purpose. These specials work too much off the wepon's stats and not enough off the skill investment. Which means so many 'non-combat' profs can use these specials as well as those who've devoted themselves to it.

The topic is not specials, it's Inits. Specials are a different thread, so stay on topic.

[locomdenom]

Inits.

I feel no pity whatsoever for anyone who was exploiting bugged inits to scope heavily and not have to worry about the recharge portion of their weapon cycle. So they have to change.

Oh ****ing well.

Sorry, but no one is going to convince me that a bug fix is a bad change. Learn to use different weapons, different tactics. If in the process this reduces the damage that docs and traders (and NT *weapons*) do, well, to me that seems a step towards restoring the game to the original vision of soldiers, enforcers, MAs as primary physical damage dealers, with NTs and agents contributing hefty damage via nukes + weapon and AS + weapon respectively.

Yeah, MAs will hit a little faster. So? They already cap. If they scope for the extra crits, this'll *hurt* them more than it helps. If they don't, they'll just be sitting at a lower aggdef, so they'll be harder to hit. Doesn't change their damage output at all.

Jynne said it better, and more politely, than I can at this point. This enhances the abilities of professions who rely on high inits (fixer, soldier in many cases, enforcer, agent, any profession wearing slow recharge weapons) and decreases the effectiveness of scopes. It really is that simple. Stop trying to make it out to be more than it is.