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Thread: Fixer Nano Document - April 6th, 2011 [OUTDATED]

  1. #1

    Fixer Nano Document - April 6th, 2011 [OUTDATED]

    Aight, so a few things first before we get started:The most important thing to note is that this is NOT the v2 nano document we've been discussing. We will be releasing all nano documents at the same time later down the road with our finalized changes in; this is not that document (this one is, like, v1.17). It is, however, the most recent version of said document, with some alterations and changes from what was there the first go-around. Given the drama and general muppet dancery that's been happening the last few days on *both* sides of the equation, I talked to Genele today and we decided to get this out here to enable you guys to start giving us actual, directed feedback.I'm also not going to lie to you guys - I'm not as well versed with this doc as I am some of the others, and I'm not really capable of delineating the information for you guys as well as someone who's more knowledgeable with the profession could. So, to that end and lacking in other help at the moment, I'm asking you guys for a hand. I'd love to have this thread chock full of good information regarding the document and its changes, from both the current game and the last released document, and if there are any of you who'd be willing to help out with that I would be extremely appreciative of the aid. If you're interested in helping out with the OP for this thread, please send me a PM. The thread will end up structured very similarly to the ones for MP, NT, Trader, and Engineer - Three posts per thread, each with different focuses in their discussion (overview, details, bugs/concerns). Again: If you are interested in helping out with the OP for this thread and don't mind sifting through a big pink excel file with a fine-toothed comb, please send me a PM and we can chat.I'm going to leave this thread open for commentary on the current sheet - You can either reply here or send me a PM if you want. Please remember that screaming does absolutely no one any good and is likely to get your either moderated or just ignored. ;P You can disagree all you like, and you're free to tell us you disagree, but "omg fc f u u stoopid ****** ill kill your mothers" don't fly well with me and the rest of the Roving Forums Moderation Gank Squad. ;PTalking about some of the contents of the sheet (or perhaps lack thereof in this case, as its not in this version of the doc), Genele asked that I point this out: Fixer runspeed buffs will, in the future, give more RS to the Fixer than their target. Here's why:With the changes to the runspeed curve incoming, the hard cap for how much speed gives a tangible benefit will be changing to a higher number than the current cap - In other words, at the higher end it will take more RS to run as fast as possible (and at the lower end people will move slightly faster). New level 1 characters will move faster than they do now, and players with 2000 RS will move slower than they do now. It should be noted that the new maximum cap will be slower than the current maximum cap - We have bad, bad, bad issues with server/client synch due to the relative speed of characters in the game. So lowbies will get faster, high level characters will be slower, and it will take much more runspeed to get to the maximum benefit.Reaching the runspeed cap (and thus having the fastest movement) will, after the rebalancing, be virtually solely the domain of Fixers - Advies will also have rather high runspeed, but they'll need to work hard to hit the cap. You guys will be able to get there fairly easily. So Fixers will receive more runspeed benefit from their buffs than any other profession, to help ensure that they remain on the top of the speed list.Otherwise, again being completely and utterly honest, I myself am not entirely sure what is altered and changed in this version of the document (hence the request for help earlier in the post) compared to the earlier releases. I do, however, want to reiterate that this is still *not* the "finalized" version of the document in the slightest, and things are still quite mutable. The feedback we get from players is more valuable than most of you probably even realize, and the fact that we haven't really been able to compile that feedback for Fixers (and a few other professions - you guys aren't alone in having lazy profs, unfortunately :() has been something that's been bugging me for a while. This isn't *ideal*, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.And that's about it! The document's linked right below, and I encourage you guys to post your thoughts. Remember: Keep it civil, keep it calm, keep it constructive. We're all here because we want to make a positive impact - Help me help you by keeping it chill. Otherwise, looking forward to the feedback. Cheers!
    Last edited by Lazy; Feb 13th, 2017 at 17:46:09.
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  2. #2

    Funcom employee

    Placeholder #1
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  3. #3

    Funcom employee

    Placeholder #2
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  4. #4

    Funcom employee

    NOTE: Just because something is listed here does NOT mean that it will be changed or altered going forward. I'm just gathering the potential issues that *you* guys bring up in one place - That doesn't mean we'll *agree* with everything, and some things may stay as they are in the document due to our design decisions. I don't want to discourage anyone from posting their thoughts, though, and will be making notes here in the OP to present to Genele based off of what you guys have to say.

    Feedback & Concerns:

    Emergency Grid: Lockout too long?
    %based HoT Lines: Merging schools?
    Evade Debuff: Split duration in PvP vs. PvM?
    MatterMet: Nice to drop off of SWS, but cost on long HoT is higher than SWS used to be, encouraging higher IP expenditure in MM.

    Suggestions:

    Program Override: Consider offering scaling effects & defensive check off B&E?

    Bugs/Issues:

    Karma Harvest and Theiving Fingers have same nanoskill requirements
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  5. #5
    omg fc f u u stoopid ****** ill kill your mothers

    Gotta dig up the older document and I'll see if I can notice the changes

    please don't gank me
    220/30 - Spartanx9. Back for a good while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haquihana
    Haquihana: And Spartanx9, I dont usually spend much time in the soldier forums.. you all don't make enough rucus (NOTE: this is not a message of approval to go cause unjust trouble)
    Sounds like i need to cause some trouble I kid i kid

  6. #6

    Funcom employee

    Spartan gets a pass. 'cause it's Spartan. The rest of you don't. ;P

    As far as changes go I was looking at the last release (the Jan. 10th, 2011) version and I can't *see* anything huge off the top of my head but I could be wrong - Didn't exactly go through it with a fine-toothed comb, kinda busy this week with various tasks 'n stuff. >< That said, I wouldn't *expect* this to be a huge change from the Jan. 10th doc; any alterations are probably nothing omghueg.
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  7. #7
    That longass lockout on self 'emergency' grid does not make sense. Just sayin'!
    220 Shade | 220 NT | 220 Crat | 220 Fixer | 220 Agent | 165 Adv

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    With the changes to the runspeed curve incoming, the hard cap for how much speed gives a tangible benefit will be changing to a higher number than the current cap - In other words, at the higher end it will take more RS to run as fast as people do currently (and at the lower end people will move slightly faster). New level 1 characters will move faster than they do now, and players with 2000 RS will move slower than they do now.
    Slightly off topic, but as far as i remember (part of) the reason you guys wanted to normalize runspeed was that it caused sync problems at very high rs. Since it looks like at least some professions will still be able to run that fast does that mean you've solved this issue?


  9. #9
    Only thing still on my wish list is the possibility to get those % heals in their own Healing School so we can run all three together.

    Is there a slight change to the Improved Damage Buffs? Think I remember there being only 4 points difference between Semi-Sentient and Neural in that last document but now thats increaed to 10.

    Also it looks like the cripple from the meep nano's has been removed. Again, might have been the same in the old document too.

    In terms of the Run Speed I can see where the Dev's are coming from when they say that Fixers will reach the higher amounts of Run Speed the easiest and therefore will be the fastest players...but the whole point of our Run Speed buff is that we buff other people with it, it's maybe the first thing we're asked for. So after you've buffed everyone your back to being the same speed as them. I'd still like a higher Run Speed cap for the Fixer profession, just to ensure that even after we have improved team mates Speed we still remain the fastest profession.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Graftmage View Post
    That longass lockout on self 'emergency' grid does not make sense. Just sayin'!
    it does if you look at the recent tower meep-attacks
    This is my signature. Gaze upon its awesomeness and weep because yours can never be this awesome.

  11. #11
    I'm noticing a few changes to AoE Snares, with a minor nano cost increase, but the chance to break being lowered (from 25% to 10%). I'm currently writing up a huge list of what I see and then post it when i get done.
    220/30 - Spartanx9. Back for a good while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haquihana
    Haquihana: And Spartanx9, I dont usually spend much time in the soldier forums.. you all don't make enough rucus (NOTE: this is not a message of approval to go cause unjust trouble)
    Sounds like i need to cause some trouble I kid i kid

  12. #12

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Phargus View Post
    Slightly off topic, but as far as i remember (part of) the reason you guys wanted to normalize runspeed was that it caused sync problems at very high rs. Since it looks like at least some professions will still be able to run that fast does that mean you've solved this issue?
    I actually misspoke in the OP and have edited it now - People at the top end of the runspeed cap post-rebalancing *will* move slower than characters do currently; we *have* to do this for our synch issues, there's just not a lot of choice in the matter. It won't be a *huge* amount of difference but it will be noticable. That said, with our current calculations, most professions will still be 1 m/s slower than Fixers who have reached the capped value.

    So yes: Faster speed at the start, slower speed at the endgame, expanded RS cap, and Fixers having the most RS boosting nanos/items/etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanana View Post
    In terms of the Run Speed I can see where the Dev's are coming from when they say that Fixers will reach the higher amounts of Run Speed the easiest and therefore will be the fastest players...but the whole point of our Run Speed buff is that we buff other people with it, it's maybe the first thing we're asked for. So after you've buffed everyone your back to being the same speed as them. I'd still like a higher Run Speed cap for the Fixer profession, just to ensure that even after we have improved team mates Speed we still remain the fastest profession.
    Edit: I totally mis-read that. ;P Anyhoo, when we talk about the 'soft cap' that we're expecting other professions to reach, that's including figures from RS buff casts and such. Way, way, way better to have a soft cap - That way people can twink and mess around with their character to actually get a good *benefit* from having as much RS as they can get. Just that Fixers, no matter what, will be faster and get more runspeed than the rest (again, we're looking at Advies in a very close second, maybe near tied if they really, really focus on RS boosts and stuff [and probably in parrot morph] - everyone else will have varying amounts they can reach, mind you, but no one as close to Fixers as Advies will be).
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  13. #13
    i'll go through the excel document either tonight or tomorrow and type up a quickie summary if not one else does it before me

  14. #14
    Make sure you take into account the speed of MOBS when you (radicaly?) change our speed, i certanly don't want ppl to be able to train me easier or mobs i want dot pulled able to catch me (or their buddies rather)
    Things like that, dig into it

    Also, saw on the rip from test that wake up call removed some NEW -2000 debuff that i'm unsure if it's added to this doc, anyway, heads up
    And well.. without whining 10 sec on evade debuff is just nice and dandy in pvp, but i really think it should last longer in pvm, it's handy on some bosses with really high evades to land nice fa's and such.
    Last edited by swedoc; May 12th, 2011 at 23:15:01.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkstabber View Post
    it does if you look at the recent tower meep-attacks
    Notice the self part in my post. It will take fixer what, 30 minutes to kill a tower alone? 4 minute lockout on team meeps is understandable.

    Self 'emergency' grid is useful for moving around RK faster than everyone else, taking that away is totally uncalled for.
    220 Shade | 220 NT | 220 Crat | 220 Fixer | 220 Agent | 165 Adv

  16. #16
    This is what i got from AoE Snares, Single target snares and Roots. I have to run out for today, so I'll post what I have now and then come back and edit this later tonight.

    - AoE Snares -

    All AoE Snare Changes
    - Stacking Order changed to how much they snare by.
    - Chance to Break reduced from 25% chance to 10%.
    - Taunts removed from snares that landed on monsters.

    Code:
    Spin Nanoweb
    - Nano Cost upped from 655 to 768.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 600 seconds to 50 seconds.
    
    Mass Gravity Bindings
    - Nano Cost upped from 536 to 670.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 540 seconds to 45 seconds.
    
    Greater Net Cast Wide
    - Nano Cost upped from 536 to 599.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 480 seconds to 40 seconds.
    
    Spin Weak Nanoweb
    - Nano Cost upped from 370 to 479.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 450 seconds to 38 seconds.
    
    Invasive Distributed Entanglement
    - Nano Cost upped from 268 to 327.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 420 seconds to 35 seconds.
    
    Net Cast Wide
    - Nano Cost lowered from 237 to 231. (? Suddenly lowered in this case)
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 390 seconds to 33 seconds.
    
    Active Distributed Entanglement
    - Nano Cost upped from 183 to 184. (?)
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 360 seconds to 30 seconds.
    
    Lesser Net Cast Wide
    - Nano Cost lowered from 131 to 121.(?)
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 330 seconds to 28 seconds.
    
    Passive Distributed Entanglement
    - Nano Cost upped from 45 to 48. (?)
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 300 seconds to 25 seconds.

    - Snares -

    All Snare Changes
    - Taunts removed from snares that landed on monsters.
    - Chance to break reduced from 25% to 10%.
    - Stacking Order changed by how much they snare by.

    Code:
    Intense Agglutinative Nanoweb
    - Nano Cost upped from 1404 to 1538.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 900 seconds to 75 seconds.
    
    Intense Nano Bindings
    - Nano Cost upped from 1009 to 1297.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 780 seconds to 65 seconds.
    
    Intense Targetted Nanoweb
    - Nano Cost upped from 820 to 1052.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 660 seconds to 55 seconds.
    
    Intense Gravity Bindings
    - Nano Cost upped from 600 to 897.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 540 seconds to 45 seconds.
    
    Intense Personal Entanglement
    - Nano Cost upped from 420 to 809.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 420 seconds to 35 seconds.
    
    Intense Nano Net
    - Nano Cost upped from 285 to 476.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 360 seconds to 30 seconds.
    
    Intense Micro Entanglement
    - Nano Cost upped from 116 to 158.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 300 seconds to 25 seconds.
    
    Gravity Bindings
    - Nano Cost upped from 322 to 635.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 540 seconds to 45 seconds.
    
    Greater Nano Net
    - Nano Cost upped from 254 to 513.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 480 seconds to 40 seconds.
    
    Invasive Micro Entanglement
    - Nano Cost upped from 194 to 365.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 420 seconds to 35 seconds.
    
    Nano Net
    - Nano Cost upped from 133 to 200.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 390 seconds to 33 seconds.
    
    Active Micro Entanglement
    - Nano Cost upped from 74 to 112.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 360 seconds to 30 seconds.
    
    Lesser Nano Net
    - Nano Cost upped from 39 to 61.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 330 seconds to 28 seconds.
    
    Passive Micro Entanglement
    - Nano Cost upped from 17 to 31.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 300 seconds to 25 seconds.
    - Roots -

    All Root Changes
    - Roots have a 15% chance to break, down from 25%.
    - Taunts have been removed when landing on monsters.

    Code:
    Greater Prolong Encounter
    - Nano Cost upped from 643 to 754.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 420 seconds to 35 seconds.
    
    Greater Delay Retreat
    - Nano Cost upped from 490 to 680.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 360 seconds to 30 seconds.
    
    Prolong Encounter
    - Nano Cost upped from 362 to 612.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 330 seconds to 28 seconds.
    
    Greater Halt Fight
    - Nano Cost upped from 229 to 455.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 300 seconds to 25 seconds.
    
    Delay Retreat
    - Nano Cost upped from 157 to 300.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 270 seconds to 23 seconds.
    
    Lesser Prolong Encounter
    - Nano Cost upped from 89 to 139.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 240 seconds to 20 seconds.
    
    No Escape Possible
    - Nano Cost upped from 55 to 83.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 210 seconds to 18 seconds.
    
    Halt Fight
    - Nano Cost upped from 35 to 39.
    - Duration vs monsters reduced, from 180 seconds to 15 seconds.
    220/30 - Spartanx9. Back for a good while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haquihana
    Haquihana: And Spartanx9, I dont usually spend much time in the soldier forums.. you all don't make enough rucus (NOTE: this is not a message of approval to go cause unjust trouble)
    Sounds like i need to cause some trouble I kid i kid

  17. #17
    Imo,

    change the AR check on Program override to B+E check.

    so, if you max B+E, you're going to get the best result.

    also, could be involved in the land rate, like:

    TS 50%+SI 50 % + BE 25% Vs. 60% NR

    then, on top of that, if your BE is high (like, 0-500 is 1 program, 500-1000 is 2 progrms, 1000+ is 3 programs removed.)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Imo,

    change the AR check on Program override to B+E check.

    so, if you max B+E, you're going to get the best result.

    also, could be involved in the land rate, like:

    TS 50%+SI 50 % + BE 25% Vs. 60% NR

    then, on top of that, if your BE is high (like, 0-500 is 1 program, 500-1000 is 2 progrms, 1000+ is 3 programs removed.)
    I like this idea.

  19. #19

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by swedoc View Post
    Make sure you take into account the speed of MOBS when you (radicaly?) change our speed, i certanly don't want ppl to be able to train me easier or mobs i want dot pulled able to catch me (or their buddies rather)
    Things like that, dig into it
    Bear in mind, we're talking about a change to the curve itself - The way that how fast you move is calculated based on how much Runspeed skill you have, as well as introducing a new, different global cap. It's a blanket change that'll effect *everything* and all at the same time; this is including mobs, so there won't be much there to worry about. =)

    Quote Originally Posted by swedoc View Post
    Also, saw on the rip from test that wake up call removed some NEW -2000 debuff that i'm unsure if it's added to this doc, anyway, heads up
    Yeah, ignore that. XD Was something we were initially working on for the new Pande encounter but it's been removed and replaced with some other stuff (the design doc's gone through a pretty radical overhaul in the last couple of weeks - *really* proud of what we've got now, to be honest, and i think its gonna be a lot of fun). So just pay that one no mind, as it'll be disappearing again in the near future. XD
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  20. #20
    * Karma Harvest and Theiving fingers have same nanoskill requirements, I think this is a typo.

    * Again, I have to defend one of the things I like most in AO: froob raiding, and especially strategy in it. The duration of roots and snares in pvm is way too short for some things.
    I'll give an example: Ljotur comes with about 5 leets that do heavy damage. Froobs can't tank them properly, they have to deal with them otherwise: snare/root them is a valid tactic. We usually use fixer snares for their long duration, but lately I had to do it with my 4min NT roots. Getting all rooted was tough (I had some help from an agent) and keeping all of them rooted was a full time job. That's with 4 minutes. According to the current docs, the longest that we will have (over all profs) will be 75 seconds! And then there is the long cooldowns... (EDIT: Eh well, Looked at crat doc. I suppose crat roots and snares can do the job, still going to be a pain taking those high resists and long cooldowns into account...)

    TLDR: There is no reason to make snares and roots shorter in pvm and if there is one, I would like to hear it.


    [It's something I've seen everywhere in the docs: nano's that do stuff are made much less powerful. The only thing that gets better seems to be damage. All tricks are being dumbed down. I think this mostly is a side effect from rebalance being done by nearly just 1 person that likes a different sort of gameplay than me. I might be wrong, but sometimes I get the impression that the sort of gameplay Genele likes is hitting stuff with a big hammer (mind you, that can be cool, but I prefer it a whole bunch more complex in AO ). And redesigning all encounters to make them still fun after rebalancing is not something I see happening soon, it's enough work as it is.]
    Edta 200 NT, froob , Setup, General of NEPA, Raid Leader of TLfiveplus (Froob Raids)
    Neutral For Life, AO For Ever!
    Please, let Clan and Omni return to Neutral Clan/Omni Resignation forms!

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