Advy/soldier QL160 FA pistols

[Berinda]

Add an upgrade to them/entirely new pistol that gives a 15 round clip and an MBS of 1500 for soldiers, and 2000 for advies. Pump up the equip reqs for the new weapons as you see fit.

These changes should make the advy pistol far more effective in PvP - and give advies a respectable, while not crazy, PvM DD boost - while not effecting soldier PvP that much because PvP soldiers will still be rocking Dsharks and pistol soldiers still won't have much AR, anyway.

A well-equipped pistol/KMP soldier ODs a well-equipped Ofab Shark soldier under virtually any conditions, and while it would give pistol/KMP soldiers even more DD than before, it's not like they're going to be put into the same class as shades. Perhaps to further balance it out, put an HP or evade debuff on the soldier gun so the soldier becomes stronger in it's strong category and weaker in it's weak category. DO NOT do any such thing to the advy gun, and don't make the debuff as crazy as that found in the berserker implant.

Yeah, that's my idea. Let the whines about overpowered soldiers and how melee advies being fine = ranged advies deserving nothing commence.

[Fifty50]

This would do just about nothing for ranged advies in PVP, their problem is lack of offense skill (Read: Pistol/fullauto/AAO skill), MBS or bigger clip wont make them land more bullets.

If u wanna help ranged advies in PvP slap a 100 AAO modifier on it, and leave everything else. 15k FAs from a 1 handed gun every 11 secs is a bit OP...even if it only work vs people with no evades.

[Berinda]

This would do just about nothing for ranged advies in PVP, their problem is lack of offense skill (Read: Pistol/fullauto/AAO skill), MBS or bigger clip wont make them land more bullets.

Way a friend was explaining it to me, a bigger clip and more MBS would fix a lot of things. And, lack of skill to land the hits isn't solely the fault of the gun.

If they were to introduce weapons like this, an AAO mod on the advy version wouldn't be a bad idea, though.

[Berinda]

bump

[Klodovik]

Is this the right place to ask for double AS capable Tigress™?

[Berinda]

Is this the right place to ask for double AS capable Tigress™?

No place is the right place to ask for double AS on the Tigress.

[Theonora]

*tired bump because I don't have the energy to dig out any of the rest of these threads*

Theo

[Hacre]

Way a friend was explaining it to me, a bigger clip and more MBS would fix a lot of things.

Yes. Higher MBS = more damage per bullet = higher chance of a decent FA without having to land the entire clip = better for Advs in PvP. Bigger clip of course improves possibilities of a capped full auto if a ranged adv goes nutso on tweaking their FA ability and does manage to land a full clip on people with crappy evades.

Bigger clip + higher MBS = Better full autos in PVM.

Oh and as someone who has neither a soldier nor an advy, bump for this.

[Berinda]

bada-bump

[Glarawyn]

Yes. Higher MBS = more damage per bullet = higher chance of a decent FA without having to land the entire clip = better for Advs in PvP. Bigger clip of course improves possibilities of a capped full auto if a ranged adv goes nutso on tweaking their FA ability and does manage to land a full clip on people with crappy evades.

Bigger clip + higher MBS = Better full autos in PVM.

Oh and as someone who has neither a soldier nor an advy, bump for this.

MBS has nothing to do with chance of landing a hit. MBS is simply the point at which your Attack Rating stops increasing your damage. Having Attack Rating above the MBS of a weapon still increases your chance of landing a hit.

Increasing the MBS on an Adventurer Full Auto weapon won't help Adventurers land Full Auto attacks. Adventurers do have enough AR to land attacks. The problem is our special skills (burst, full auto, fling shot) are very low in comparison to our Pistol skill. As special skill factors into the attack rating of that special attack, we end up missing specials.

My average for PvM damage is 61% damage from specials (Burst, Full Auto, Fling Shot), 21% Normal Damage, and 10% Other (Damage shields, perks, procs, etc.) This setup works in PvM as most targets don't evade well. Throw the same setup into PvP and the ranged adventurer is slapped with a heavy 50-71% damage reduction due to inability to land specials and perks.

I added up the Attack Rating, Weapon Skill, Full Auto, Burst, and Fling Shot skill buffs that are specific to Soldiers and Adventures for comparison. Damage wise Ranged Adventurers and Soldiers are similar: both are heavily dependent on ranged special attacks for damage and both lack offensive nano programs. We even share weapons (Jobe Explorer Personal Pistol & Jobe Portal Guard Personal Pistol)

Soldier (Assault Rifle):
Attack Rating: +104
Weapon Skill: +575
Full Auto: +360
Burst: +490
Fling Shot: +420

Adventurer (Pistol):
Attack Rating: +20
Weapon Skill: +460
Full Auto: +0
Burst: +30
Fling Shot: +171

These numbers are for items/nanos that are specific to the profession. No items that can be used by anyone or by both Soldiers and Adventurers have been counted. The numbers do include perks and Personal Research. Global Research is excluded (falls into the category of something anyone can use.)

A quick glance of the numbers shows why Soldiers do much better in PvP than the ranged Adventurer. Not only do Soldiers have weapons that are able to hit the Full Auto cap, their special attack skills are much higher.

In my view, a few things need to happen for Adventures:

1. Introduce a new Adventurer pistol with Full Auto special with regular damage comparable to MK6/Twitch.
2. Increase the clip size of the Adventurer's full auto pistol so that Adventurers can hit the Full Auto cap. (JEPP clip size of 10 is inadequate for this)
3. Add significant special attack skill buffs to the Adventurer.
4. Apply a slow Full Auto cycle to the new pistol to compensate for 1, 2, and 3. (I came up with a 45 second Full Auto cycle when I was working out the PvM numbers to keep the Adventurer's PvM damage the same.)

[Berinda]

In my view, a few things need to happen for Adventures:[*] Introduce a new Adventurer pistol with Full Auto special with regular damage comparable to MK6/Twitch.

I think raising the MBS on the current pistol would be good for that.

[*] Increase the clip size of the Adventurer's full auto pistol so that Adventurers can hit the Full Auto cap. (JEPP clip size of 10 is inadequate for this)

15 bullets would make a huge difference.

[*] Add significant special attack skill buffs to the Adventurer.

Making it a mod on the gun itself wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

[*] Apply a slow Full Auto cycle to the new pistol to compensate for 1, 2, and 3. (I came up with a 45 second Full Auto cycle when I was working out the PvM numbers to keep the Adventurer's PvM damage the same.) [/LIST]

My opinion is, anything over 20 seconds is a bit high, and if it takes the MBS route instead of new damage route to increase the damage, FA can still stay relatively low - doesn't overpower in PvM too much and for PvP it doesn't matter so long as you have a chance to do a capped hit.

[Hacre]

MBS has nothing to do with chance of landing a hit. MBS is simply the point at which your Attack Rating stops increasing your damage. Having Attack Rating above the MBS of a weapon still increases your chance of landing a hit.

Increasing the MBS on an Adventurer Full Auto weapon won't help Adventurers land Full Auto attacks. Adventurers do have enough AR to land attacks. The problem is our special skills (burst, full auto, fling shot) are very low in comparison to our Pistol skill. As special skill factors into the attack rating of that special attack, we end up missing specials.
<snip>

I said absolutely nothing about MBS increasing chance of landing a hit. I said increased MBS gives you a better chance at a decent full auto, because you get more damage PER BULLET.

Let's pull some numbers out of the air. Currently, let's say, the FA pistol deals 1k damage per bullet, non crit. So 3 bullets = 3k, halved in PvP = 1.5k. Wow, what a crap full auto.

Now let's increase MBS to a degree where an FA pistol deals 2.5k damage per bullet, non crit. So 3 bullets = 7.5k, halved in PvP = 3750. Well gee, that's more than twice the damage from just 3 bullets, therefore, as I said, increasing your chance of a better FA hit. Not increased chance of the FA landing, but a better chance at a decent FA when you do land one.

Clear now? Getting all the FA attack rating in the world isn't going to help you land better FAs if your MBS is still stuck at a paltry 1k, requiring a crap ton of add damage items to get anything decent out of the thing in PvP.

You need both, not one or the other. You'd do well to not jump all over someone, with a condescending attitude, who would like to see improvements to professions other than their own.

[Glarawyn]

I said absolutely nothing about MBS increasing chance of landing a hit. I said increased MBS gives you a better chance at a decent full auto, because you get more damage PER BULLET.

Higher damage per bullet doesn't matter much when you can only land 1 or 2 bullets and full auto accounts for such a huge chunk of your normal PvM damage. Yes, you will do more damage with a higher damage weapon, but you'll still be hitting for 0-3 bullets in PvP. The improved MBS is not enough to make up for the loss of 7-10 bullets Full Autos that you pull down in PvM.

With the dependence that Ranged Adventurer PvM damage has on Full Auto simply increasing the damage of the Adventurer Full Auto pistol isn't enough. We empty the clip, hit for 0-3 bullets, and then reload. With a low Full Auto cycle we'll basically be doing that constantly and the Full Auto weapon will rarely fire a normal shot (as the JEPP does now.)

Increase the Adventurer's Full Auto skill and the Full Auto cycle stays low. Now Adventurers have a chance at landing lots of bullets in PvP and doing some significant damage, and they are pulling 15,000 capped full autos in PvM at 11 second intervals. That is not good either.

Full Auto skill has to go up. Full Auto cycle has to get longer. 45 seconds is probably too long as I didn't factor in reload time, but that's what the damage worked out to when I ran numbers for a Full Auto pistol with MK6 sized clip and MK6 damage range.


Edit:

I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just trying to point out that raising the damage range of a weapon is not going to solve much when the root of the problem is that Ranged Adventurer damage is heavily dependent on special attacks that we can land with very high success rates in PvM but incredibly poor success rates in PvP.

[Berinda]

To be fair, this thread isn't titled "fix everything wrong with ranged advy PvP." It's about improving current soldier and advy FA pistols.

Of course, one avenue no one would want to hear is do give ranged advies 11 second 15k FAs while keeping them sucky in PvP; then there would be clear cut PvM damage and PvP weapon lines.

[Hacre]

I see no problem giving Advs 15k FAs on a pistol. Any idiot can do it with a DShark so why not?

[Klodovik]

I see no problem giving Advs 15k FAs on a pistol. Any idiot can do it with a DShark so why not?

QL1-300 range, so I can have fun with my lowbie love child plox.

P.S.
Is it just me, or this what I just wrote above sounded a bit strange? :\

[Berinda]

P.S.
Is it just me, or this what I just wrote above sounded a bit strange? :\

What you write always sounds strange.

[Glarawyn]

QL1-300 range, so I can have fun with my lowbie love child plox.

Whatever you say will be misquoted and used against you.

[Berinda]

I'm bumping this as hard as I can.

[Berinda]

I'm bumping this harder than I ever have before.