PvP range fix?

[Le-Quack]

bump

[Armus]

I'm optimistic that FC will look at this at some point as well. I just don't think it's going to be the amazing fix that our friends with level 170 'dedicated TL5 NW' (LAWL!!!!!!) twinks anticipate it will be so they can have NW turned into outdoors BS PVP + PVT.

I guess this was directed at me. When I say dedicated I mean 150-164 ish toons.

Most of us also have multiple 170 ish toons. Which are excellent for smashing the poor 150's that are suppesedly so awesome.

The problem still exists just as much as it used to do.

[Obtena]

That's just your selective interpretation of 'dedicated'. By that definition, you can claim the whole laddering system needs to be fixed because any toon made for NW is dedicated to a specific level for the same reasons the ones at TL5 are, yet no one openly supports that much of a radical fix. If your reference to dedication is a measure for who should be affected by any changes and not, then obviously you are excluding the even more dedicated NW people that roll 207 at a greater time and expense to win NW just so you can make your position on TL5 NW look like the abused stepchild of NW.

[Armus]

That's just your selective interpretation of 'dedicated'.

Hand's up anyone that doesn't understand that dedicated NW twinks in this context is about avoiding twink killing tl7's or even higher tl7's.

By that definition, you can claim the whole laddering system needs to be fixed because any toon made for NW is dedicated to a specific level for the same reasons the ones at TL5 are, yet no one openly supports that much of a radical fix.

We've only explained about 9000 times to you why tl7 vs tl5 is different than any other range.
Why do you even post here when you are just going to ignore what is being said over and over and over?

If your reference to dedication is a measure for who should be affected by any changes and not, then obviously you are excluding the even more dedicated NW people that roll 207 at a greater time and expense to win NW just so you can make your position on TL5 NW look like the abused stepchild of NW.

Yet again this is about the power delta. I guess that makes 9001 times we've told you. But something tells me that you still won't get it.

[Obtena]

Then consider this the 9001th time I will respond to the same old arguments that have already been discussed that still fail as hard as they did the previous 9000 times ... that TL7/TL5 power delta was ALWAYS present ALWAYS. Therefore, it's no more an issue now than it was before the changes. It's value is irrelevant ... that power delta between TL5 at TL7 always exceeded a threshold ... when that happens, it gave the same result as it does now: Instakilled TL5 twinks. It's why smart NW people in the past didn't make twinks past a certain level. It's only impacting you because you and others have DECIDED to expose yourself to that WELL KNOWN and VERY REAL risk.

Bottom line, I can ignore it because it's nonsense. You're attributing your recent fail for twink level choice on something that ALWAYS EXISTED and EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT. Furthermore, the people in the past considered that power delta when making twinks to do AND execute successful TL5 NW PVP. You did not. The answer for your problem lies with you to adopt the same behaviours.

[Armus]

Then consider this the 9001th time I will respond to the same old arguments that have already been discussed that still fail as hard as they did the previous 9000 times ...

Actually you never motivated why you feel that the huge power delta should be there. All you ever did was to state that because you think it's always been there it always shold be no matter what it may do to tl5 activity.

that TL7/TL5 power delta was ALWAYS present ALWAYS. Therefore, it's no more an issue now than it was before the changes. It's value is irrelevant ... that power delta between TL5 at TL7 always exceeded a threshold ... when that happens, it gave the same result as it does now: Instakilled TL5 twinks.

Actually the numbers do make a quite significant difference. Let's have a 207 fixer as an example since they are popular gankers and let's have a look at the numbers.
Here is what tl7's gained in absolute numbers in terms of attack rating after the last range change. Not counting the added trickle, items that tl5's also got, the ability to get much better symbs on due to other items or minor other items.

40 http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267696
30 http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267695
30 http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267682
35 http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267165
40 http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267696
20 http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267757
15 http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=283379
110 le perks 8 and 10

Sum 320 added smg+ar. Which matches pretty well the entire delta we used to have from 9 rk levels + 7 sl level's of ip+ perks (it ammounts to 332).

It's plain to see that the delta has increased by a huge ammount.

It's why smart NW people in the past didn't make twinks past a certain level. It's only impacting you because you and others have DECIDED to expose yourself to that WELL KNOWN and VERY REAL risk.

So you're claiming that when someone plays a 150 ish and is faced with a 170 which is being pocketed by a 214 it's not impacting them?

Stop trying to make it out like only ppl who in your opinion overleveled is affected by the big range.

And does it really matter who did what wrong? The results are in since a few years now and it's not looking good for tl5 NW activity.

Bottom line, I can ignore it because it's nonsense.

It probably seems like nonsense since you either don't read or don't comprehend what is being said.

You're attributing your recent fail for twink level choice on something that ALWAYS EXISTED and EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT.

Which failed twink would that be?

Furthermore, the people in the past considered that power delta when making twinks to do AND execute successful TL5 NW PVP. You did not.

Who said I didn't?

The answer for your problem lies with you to adopt the same behaviours.

Really now. I am president in the most succesful tower twink org on rk1 of all times. We hold (and have held) 12-14 fields for years. We often wipe omni fields on our own. We also defend pretty much every field on rk1 whenever we can and have been doign so for years.

Does it really sound like I/WE have a problem with the way WE are set up?

No, the problem is that so many others don't fancy tl5 NW anymore and the above reason is a big factor. It doesn't matter what I do or what my org does. If the opposition doesn't fight then what level my twinks may be have no effect what so ever on the problem.

So.. stop making false insinuations and accusations about me or my twinks.
You come out as very dishonest.

[Gridpain]

that TL7/TL5 power delta was ALWAYS present ALWAYS.

It drasticaly changed with LE and LOX though ...

[Qualto]

Then consider this the 9001th time I will respond to the same old arguments that have already been discussed that still fail as hard as they did the previous 9000 times ... that TL7/TL5 power delta was ALWAYS present ALWAYS. Therefore, it's no more an issue now than it was before the changes. It's value is irrelevant ... that power delta between TL5 at TL7 always exceeded a threshold ... when that happens, it gave the same result as it does now: Instakilled TL5 twinks. It's why smart NW people in the past didn't make twinks past a certain level. It's only impacting you because you and others have DECIDED to expose yourself to that WELL KNOWN and VERY REAL risk.

Bottom line, I can ignore it because it's nonsense. You're attributing your recent fail for twink level choice on something that ALWAYS EXISTED and EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT. Furthermore, the people in the past considered that power delta when making twinks to do AND execute successful TL5 NW PVP. You did not. The answer for your problem lies with you to adopt the same behaviours.

Actually, these pvp level ranges haven't "ALWAYS" existed.
Before our current pvp lvl ranges, lvl 150's were gankable by anyone above their lvl (yes, even lvl 220's)
And before that, it was lvl 100's that were gankfood.

FC changed these pvp level ranges because it simply ruined the fun for people at or around this level. Being instaganked without a chance to do anything to defend yourself is stupid.
Compare the difference in power between a:
lvl 150 twink vs a 189 twink.
And then;
lvl 165 twink vs a lvl 207 twink.
Or even worse;
lvl 170 twink vs a 214 twink.

hint: There's something very different with two of these matchups.




I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that pvp lvl range laddering should be removed completly. Being able to design a higher level toon to attack & defend lower level toons in pvp is part of what makes AO, AO. All we're asking is for this to be finetuned a bit in order to give people in this lvl range a more fair, fun and enjoyable pvp experience.

If FC does this right, we might see some TL5 tower wars again. Something that I suspect both you, and I (and many many more people) want.

[Obtena]

It drasticaly changed with LE and LOX though ...

That's not what matters at all. That drastic increase is not relevant if the difference that already existed was enough. And it was.

[Obtena]

hint: There's something very different with two of these matchups.

I agree and anyone who had a clue about NW knows what that means for rolling twinks for TL5 NW. We all know those are unequal matchups ... how stupid is it to knowingly roll a toon in that range at risk to those TL7 levels then turn around and claim something's wrong with the game because their twinks are getting destroyed? It's pretty stupid IMO. All the arguments about power delta changes etc ... are just a smoke screen. If people know they are putting themselves at risk with unequal matchups at a certain level ... DON'T be that level. it's pretty simple.

I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that pvp lvl range laddering should be removed completly. Being able to design a higher level toon to attack & defend lower level toons in pvp is part of what makes AO, AO. All we're asking is for this to be finetuned a bit in order to give people in this lvl range a more fair, fun and enjoyable pvp experience.

If FC does this right, we might see some TL5 tower wars again. Something that I suspect both you, and I (and many many more people) want.

Unfortunately, that fine tuning comes at a price to the people that are using a legitimate laddering strategy to win TL5 NW. Any changes that have been proposed only reduce the range, so it's punishing the people that are legitimately using a known and existent feature in order to reward people that are claiming their mistakes and ignorance need to be addressed through game mechanic changes. I don't believe we should reward dishonesty and stupidity at the expense of legitimate users.

I care about PVP. For me, NW is just a kind of PVP in this game where laddering is a significant aspect of. If people don't like that concept, they don't have to do it or they have to take measures to reduce their risk to laddering (and yes, contrary to the incessant crying, it can be done). There are other formats for PVP in this game they can take part in without trying to lobby FC to mold NW into their own specialty flavour.

[Armus]

.. how stupid is it to knowingly roll a toon in that range at risk to those TL7 levels then turn around and claim something's wrong with the game because their twinks are getting destroyed?

Except that's not how it happened. Most ppl care much more about BS than towers and how they perform in there and I understand why. That's where 95% of the pvp happens anyway. So no, most ppl didn't overlevel for towers. They got to the correct level for BS which happens to be a very hard level to play for towers.

It's pretty stupid IMO. All the arguments about power delta changes etc ... are just a smoke screen. If people know they are putting themselves at risk with unequal matchups at a certain level ... DON'T be that level. it's pretty simple.

We heard you the first 50 times you called ppl that care more about BS than towers stupid. You conveniently disregard the facts that are being presented to you as you always do.

Unfortunately, that fine tuning comes at a price to the people that are using a legitimate laddering strategy to win TL5 NW. Any changes that have been proposed only reduce the range, so it's punishing the people that are legitimately using a known and existent feature in order to reward people that are claiming their mistakes and ignorance need to be addressed through game mechanic changes. I don't believe we should reward dishonesty and stupidity at the expense of legitimate users.

It has nothing to do with dishonesty and stupidity as you repeatedly call it. It simply has to do with BS ranges, pvp ranges outside BS and general fairness and in the end if we want tl5 tower wars to happen or not.

I care about PVP. For me, NW is just a kind of PVP in this game where laddering is a significant aspect of. If people don't like that concept, they don't have to do it or they have to take measures to reduce their risk to laddering (and yes, contrary to the incessant crying, it can be done). There are other formats for PVP in this game they can take part in without trying to lobby FC to mold NW into their own specialty flavour.

What you are saying is that you are happy to see tl5 NW dead as long as the tiny majority of ppl with tl7 twink killers don't have their "rights" stepped on by any ation that would reinvigorate tl5 NW.

But let me ask you, when tl5 NW never happens anyway, who are these twink killers going to kill?

[Obtena]

It has nothing to do with dishonesty and stupidity as you repeatedly call it. It simply has to do with BS ranges, pvp ranges outside BS and general fairness and in the end if we want tl5 tower wars to happen or not.

Again, we went over this. I'm going t rehash on your rehash ... you're making inappropriate relationships by associating BS with NW. Two completely different PVP activities. I understand the whole premise of your arguments hinge on that association because BS is the reason people breached the safe TL5 level range. That's why your arguments are utterly flawed. Based on how BS level ranges are determined, a BS twink runs a very high risk at towers, at ANY level. It's like mixing oil and water. If you made a BS twink, take it to BS. If you make a NS twink, make it the appropriate level with whatever your acceptable risk tolerance for TL7 interference is.

But let me ask you, when tl5 NW never happens anyway, who are these twink killers going to kill?

No one, but that's the contradiction with NW you're not recognizing anyways. Some people go to PVP, some people go to simply own towers through the easiest means possible. People that roll 207 twinks probably care more about winning NW than they do about PVP. Honestly if I was in your situation and had your point of view about NW PVP, I would just go open season on EVERYONE'S towers, regardless of faction or switch faction, wipe the side, rinse, repeat. You want PVP, you would certainly get it then. There are alternate solutions you don't want to entertain.

[Gridpain]

that's the contradiction with NW you're not recognizing anyways. Some people go to PVP, some people go to simply own towers through the easiest means possible.

For once, I totally agree with you.

[Qualto]

I agree and anyone who had a clue about NW knows what that means for rolling twinks for TL5 NW. We all know those are unequal matchups ... how stupid is it to knowingly roll a toon in that range at risk to those TL7 levels then turn around and claim something's wrong with the game because their twinks are getting destroyed? It's pretty stupid IMO. All the arguments about power delta changes etc ... are just a smoke screen. If people know they are putting themselves at risk with unequal matchups at a certain level ... DON'T be that level. it's pretty simple.

Pretty much all the TL5 pvp'ers i know (/knew) rolled their 165 or 170 twinks for pvp. That is; BS, Duels and Notum Wars. It's only natural that you want to do as much as possible on it with your twink.
And if you went with a lvl under 165, you would've limited your ability to perform well in duels & bs.
Just as if you go lvl 165 or above, you would've limited your ability to perform well in Notum Wars pvp.


If they chose to perform better in duels and battlestation pvp, which generally has been far more active areas of pvp than notum wars, then does it really make them stupid? I sure as hell don't think so.


But either way, it doesn't matter why people decided to twink at a certain level. What matters is that TL5 notum wars has bean completly dead since the first 207 twinks started to pop up. A huge part of this game has been turned off.

[Obtena]

If they chose to perform better in duels and battlestation pvp, which generally has been far more active areas of pvp than notum wars, then does it really make them stupid? I sure as hell don't think so.

The stupid part comes from unreasonable expectations ... this means anyone who knew they would be exposed to TL7 range bringing 165+ to NW and then complaining about being ganked by TL7 twinks. It's certainly not stupid to roll a twink to be optimized for specific purpose but people need to be reasonable when they use those purpose-specific twinks for other things.

[Qualto]

The stupid part comes from unreasonable expectations ... this means anyone who knew they would be exposed to TL7 range bringing 165+ to NW and then complaining about being ganked by TL7 twinks. It's certainly not stupid to roll a twink to be optimized for specific purpose but people need to be reasonable when they use those purpose-specific twinks for other things.

That's exactly it though. People have very reasonable expectations. They know they're gonna get owned hard without even the slightest chance to fight back vs 207 twinks. - That's why we don't see any TL5 tower wars anymore. Capish?

And personally I'm not whining about getting ganked by 207 twinks - I'm whining about what these ganks have accomplished in Anarchy Online: completly killing TL5 tower wars.

[Armus]

That's exactly it though. People have very reasonable expectations. They know they're gonna get owned hard without even the slightest chance to fight back vs 207 twinks. - That's why we don't see any TL5 tower wars anymore. Capish?

And personally I'm not whining about getting ganked by 207 twinks - I'm whining about what these ganks have accomplished in Anarchy Online: completly killing TL5 tower wars.

It doesn't matter to Obtena what you actually say. He is going to claim that you have been whining a thousand times over no matter what you do or say.

[IHaveHugeNick]

PvP ranges itself are fine.

When Battlestations and then sector10 came out, tl5 twinks sort of went mainstream and stopped being a thing just for NW enthusiasts. However most of those people didnt have first clue how to pick proper twink level and sheep followed each other into 170 ranges. Their own mistake, but obviously once you spend 2 months working on a twink, you're not going to be so eager to start from sctratch, so this whole nonsense about bad PvP ranges started.

However the thing i realised lately is how twink kilers are being amplified through population problem.

Back when i first made twink killer, which is like...summer 2008, whatever. The point is 20 vs. 20 war wasn't something uncommon. If i wanted to gank me some greys, there were always couple of Docs who would quickly locate my target and heal it, and i had to do it through instant rain of Aimed Shots . Pulling it off at least took some degree of skill and awareness.

Since then population have went down the toilet, nowadays its usually like team vs. team. Furthermore it is a lot harder to get TL7 support , because again, there is no people. Decent twink killer, in the meantime further amplified by LoX and other content updates, can just carelessly go in balls first and do as he pleases.

And wherever there's a possibility to do things balls first, people want to jump in, so literally everyone now either already has a twink killer or wants to make one. Last few tl5 wars i've been to have all turned into complete farce with 6 220s guarding 3 twinks shooting at the tower.

TLDR: PvP ranges good, current situation bad and worse then ever

[Contra]

Obtena doesn't want this to be fixed because, judging by his position towards this issue, he plays a twink killer himself.
It's only logical to roll a 207 or a 214 when your real twinks suck so bad Right, Obtena?
TL5 towers don't happen anymore because of people who couldn't compete in the proper ranges and decided to roll the absolute max there was. Nothing's better then killing a field of greys after a hard work day, right? :|
PS: Obtena actually suggested that tl5 wars should be fought by players not higher then level 130. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Obtena]

TL5 towers don't happen anymore because of people who .... decided to roll the absolute max there was

Actually anyone who is more interested in owning towers than PVPing at NW does this regularly at every TL. I think a L2P would be appropriate at this moment. Problem here is that people aren't make a distinction between the two kinds of players, but those distinctions exist and admittedly, that failure for NW to accommodate both of those types simultaneously is just one of many factors contributing to the lack of TL5 towers. I believe that the current system correctly sides with those with the 'owning towers' vs. the PVP attitude. The people that want towers do what they can to own them, regardless of the leanings of PVPers that want TL5 NW to exist just to PVP. This means they roll 207/214 twinks to ensure they control the battlefield. It's a very strategic approach that most people don't have the capacity to comprehend. There is too much tunnel vision on tactics with true PVPers. Too concerned with winning a single fight instead of winning the war.

PS: Obtena actually suggested that tl5 wars should be fought by players not higher then level 130. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I did no such thing actually. I merely suggested people consider levels that would be appropriate for the laddering they were seeing at TL5 towers. 130 happens to be one of them. As for the rest of your post, I'm an old fish ... you need better bait than that. For example, asking people to pay for an account in exchange for ingame credits. That would be a lot more interesting.