Will/should agents have to build/play their toon around CH/Casting?

[Cyberleet]

I seen some proposed perk-changes for agent and it looks great!

Some of it seems to be a bit out-of-the-loop with how the profession plays out live however.


How will/should the future repetoir of the profession be balanced? Will it be easier to play the class in accordance with the description and the design-wise intent of the class? Some of the changes is hurting the class if so.

They way I played mine was doing vicious stealth-strikes (not meaning PE and Full Auto alphas now) that left the player snared, wounded and debuffed from the opening assault, and were able to succesfully do swift in-and-out attacks using the SL-Escape nanoline in group-encountes for hasty retreats, singling out my targets with consentrated coreography, tactic, back-up plan and attempted finesse. I customized the charracter out from the green skills, perception and concealment and equipped it more offensively. Healingwise, HP-wise my agent was... less effective.

So, the current changes seems to force agent into a caster-setup to be viable.

It WILL be harder to strike fast and hard, and land attacks if the proposed changes go live.

And a nerfing change to casting-calculations on top of that would make AR/Damage-focused agent obsolete to fight with since we loose so very much more edge and viabillity than the players who designed their agents to be more outlasting in combat and modest in damage/attack-rating.

Without CH (and some other fp'ables) agent got less defence (barring detaunts) than shade, which outdamage the agent by far.

So what is the future-direction of agents, and how should it be?

a very lethal Direct damage profession

Thats how the previous GD described us, and certain FP's maybe limits that to hold true?

Some agents wants CH to be removed from our toolset, some wants a new defence, I want a damage penalty added to mimic doc, and some (ch-clanners as I call them ) wants to continue with the defensive setups buildt and played around CH.


I REALLY wanna see a more deadly, vicious stealth-class were the sophisticated agent-only toolset gets enhanced and adjusted more to correspond with the agent-in-action-needs, while the fp-abillity gets toned down a little in importance when you do the actuall fighting with the profession.

It (False Profession) still should work as a _poor_ replacement for the fp'd profession, but a fair replacement. And of course, as it has been since launch, a great way to get buffs from for both the agent and other players.

What is FC's view and direction, and what do you other players think?

[Chrazy]

I'd like to see an updated profession description/idea for all the profs actually.

[heilt-do]

Make all profession nanos FPable, just reduce effectiveness a bit. (Some exceptions apply still)

FPable nanos are from SL, pre-SL days. So the tool set is outdated.

[tweeeek]

Make all profession nanos FPable, just reduce effectiveness a bit. (Some exceptions apply still)

FPable nanos are from SL, pre-SL days. So the tool set is outdated.

a new fp giving a much greater nanoskills debuff(also depending on what prof you fp) would work for this

[torakx]

how about some defence to go along with our lack of damage?
from what ive seen so far i think agents havent gotten any extra AR which was always an issue but i can get passed that by nerfing everything else in mimic trader lol
what i would love to see is still my idea for an item that gives us a perk/nano like defense that
you can right click on your toolbar/inventory. kind of like Motr but it uses different nano/perk actions depending on the mimic you are in.

afaik this is the ONLY suggestion so far i have seen that will allow agents to actively pvp and even pvm solo ^^ in other mimics effectively...combined with the changes already inc and also with a few more tweaks to polish it off
mimic doc is so 2164 lets open it up a bit and see some diversity please.

[Cyberleet]

how about some defence to go along with our lack of damage?

You already accepted that we should lack damage?

Shame on you!

what i would love to see is still my idea for an item that gives us a perk/nano like defense that
you can right click on your toolbar/inventory. kind of like Motr but it uses different nano/perk actions depending on the mimic you are in.

Yeah, Dreadloch Chameleon.

[Mailana]

Make all profession nanos FPable, just reduce effectiveness a bit. (Some exceptions apply still)

FPable nanos are from SL, pre-SL days. So the tool set is outdated.

Off the top of my head, crat aad/aao aura would be op, pets would be op, and composite mp buffs, sl wrangle, and all the 2-4 hour auras that buff team every few minutes are restricted to those profs for a reason, if an agent can do all those things unteamable support profs are suddenly 10x as unteamable, and its a 180 degree turn from dev's intentions, so its not likely anyways.

As for something likely to happen. You already got all the sl nanos devs are willing to give you, and it was a tiny, tiny batch.

[torakx]

You already accepted that we should lack damage?

Shame on you!




Yeah, Dreadloch Chameleon.

nah i dont accept it but i cannot change it unless someone makes me a dev or beams me into the funcom HQ with a baseball bat in hand

[Vetusleet]

Off the top of my head, crat aad/aao aura would be op, pets would be op, and composite mp buffs, sl wrangle, and all the 2-4 hour auras that buff team every few minutes are restricted to those profs for a reason, if an agent can do all those things unteamable support profs are suddenly 10x as unteamable, and its a 180 degree turn from dev's intentions, so its not likely anyways.

Did you even consider that most new-fancy-and-uber nanos couldnt be FPed anyway since they are quest rewards and there is no way for agents to get them? Agent isn't exactly most teamable profession out there either and unlocking most (some nanos just shouldn't be FPed, even I agree on that) would allow them to contribute to teams as they once did (prior to SL most lines were FPable and not just lower crappy version of everything). I believe that support profs you speak off would still be better at mastering their toolset, it would just give agents option to do something else than be CH monkey for 95% of time

[Cyberleet]

(prior to SL most lines were FPable and not just lower crappy version of everything).

Correct, it was pointless to add many of the lower versions that they did.

My idea to balance this is to add new penalties to mimic since the game evolves, low dd for doc etc...

This way the FP-capabillity can get enhanced so we can indeed mimic the profession playwise, but also, the TP-buff makes it more viable to play the agent outside the FP-buffs as a pure asssassin, where FP is just something thats used to plan/prepare attacks or encounters with, increasing the skill you want increased.

Another issue with the current mimic-situation is the lack of IP for spying skills since you're so dependant on nanopool and nanoinit, so some of this has really affected the classic agent in a bad way.

[Marinegent]

I want to see the following added to agents...

- A viable perk defense. Not the greatest most powerful God mode defense either, just something that works and would make up for our otherwise non-existent perk defense. Something that will allow us to fp something besides doc for more viable setups and alternatives.

- Improved overall attack rating. A new UA nano, and a little more rifle added into our perk lines.

- A new mimic nano, this one lowers the penalties of %cost, and nano cost init a little further. Increases the nanoskill debuff (to be fair), and adds profession specific bonuses based on who we mimic.

- Increased FP'able nano support.

And that would make me happy.

edit : those are the key things I would push for as professional, at least in the pvp aspect of things. Especially the new mimic nano. I'm a real advocate for that. However this doesn't mean that im un-open to compromise, or change. These are simply rough ideas I would like to see implemented in some form.

[Dancingrage]

I think the first few SL heals should be FPable, maybe up to Restorative Influx or Revivification, and the first few SL calms for Crats, probably some SL roots, and probably add CI to the list of FPable nanos and this will solve a lot of potential problems.

[somenamehere]

Agents should get access to all the sl lines that are extension of rk lines that already can cast. We even need to get access to quest reward nanos and le nanos, just not all of them.
If you cannot understand that after shadowlands nano programs are half of a profession while perks and profession-locked items are the other half then you shouldn't comment on these threads.
If you have no idea the amount of nano skills an agent has with maxed nanoskills in combat gear and the nano init that it is possible to get then again you should not comment at all.
Any agent who would run around with nanoskills closing to 2k which is a requirement to cast many of the endgame nanos would do less damage than a doctor, would have less hp than a nanomage fixer with reseted body dev and completely ineffective evades because he would have to be at full aggro to compensate for the init debuff of mimic.

[torakx]

and to top that off i dont think i even have 2k nano skills maybe for PM cant rly remember but i thought that was funny hehe

[Amortia]

agents should get a "fade out" ability allowing them to resneak even during combat as long as they're say 15m+ away from the targets that are attacking them.

Shades probably should also.

[Dimmufodr]

The question should not only revolve about our abilites or dependancy on using mimic doc. Besides agents don't rely on CH alone, good agents rely on using the whole FP toolset. Sadly this toolset has been limited more often than it has been expanded over the years. I don't particularly like suggestions where people try to narrow down what the agent profession should be, because usually their views are limited to their own playstyle and ideas.

Refering to quotes from developers in the past does not give the answers we seek either, because most descriptions made by developers after launch has been ad-hoc justification to changes that were introduced at that particular time. We have not only been described as direct damage dealers, but we have also been described as a crit-reliant profession and a nano casting profession.

Since SL the Agent profession was neglected and in particular through the discontinuation of the FP line. They gave us some DD perks and voila we became a direct damage profession, but in reality that was only a compensation for the loss of access to new FP nanos. In the same way the introduction of our crit nanos was a compensation for the loss of UVC. The only consistent thing in the development of the Agent profession has been inconsistency. Luckily the agent community has had alot of creative minds that has always found new ways of playing the profession to its potential.

I'm happy that they have now decided to take a serious look at the profession again and have re-opened for development of the FP line. I hope that this can lead to more variety rather than further limitation of how to play agents.

[Cyberleet]

One great strenght of the agent is the abillity to produce damage on the opponent in almost any scenario, immobilize it/them and attempt to prevent them from hurting the agent.

They, at least for now, have perks that check NR, AS, Rifle that makes it so no classes are totally immune to the attacks. They got perks that just adds damage anyway like toxic shock. They got crippling perks with def-check so low that they pretty much never fail to land like Soften Up and Tranqulizer. They got everlasting dots, procs that hits with direct nanodamage and of course the Aimed Shot special-attack that got no def check at all, only stopped by special blockers and temporarly by absorbs/shields. The class got a design that renders it able to ALWAYS find some way or another to provide some kind of damage reliably no matter what defensive abillity they are facing.

Groups benefits greatly from agents for the constant high-damage they can inflict on any class.

So, imo the balance-conflicts should discriminate fp-features if no other solution is possible.

Just my 2 credz...

[torakx]

One great strenght of the agent is the abillity to produce damage on the opponent in almost any scenario, immobilize it/them and attempt to prevent them from hurting the agent.

They, at least for now, have perks that check NR, AS, Rifle that makes it so no classes are totally immune to the attacks. They got perks that just adds damage anyway like toxic shock. They got crippling perks with def-check so low that they pretty much never fail to land like Soften Up and Tranqulizer. They got everlasting dots, procs that hits with direct nanodamage and of course the Aimed Shot special-attack that got no def check at all, only stopped by special blockers and temporarly by absorbs/shields. The class got a design that renders it able to ALWAYS find some way or another to provide some kind of damage reliably no matter what defensive abillity they are facing.

Groups benefits greatly from agents for the constant high-damage they can inflict on any class.

So, imo the balance-conflicts should discriminate fp-features if no other solution is possible.

Just my 2 credz...

letah you would fit very well on sillirions old dev team :P
do you think agent dots are so good in pvp? i cannot land them on low hp profs and by the time i do i have not much nano left to heal or i have been squished.
we dont have crippling perks.we have ok debuffs on some of them.that can be irritating to melee profs for the most part.our aimed shot was the best feature if not the only great one we had this is evident from the amount of complaints we got about agents being AS/ch junkies.
i never ever heard a complaint that we had too much dots,debuffs or damage.only in relation to aimed shot.
but all that aside we agents have made good with taking short cuts that the devs never even saw coming.the fact we had went to such extreme lengths to do this shows clearly we are lacking damage and im sure we all agree defense.

i have noticed that even with 3.2k ar in mimic trader(drained) and 2.8k ish defence i cannot "gank" anyone any more from sneak or from afar.
when an agent pops out of sneak he is a sitting duck.wether he is mimic doc,trader and also sol
to a slightly lesser extent.
im not sure what your solution is for the agent prof.this thread seems to be insinuating we are heading into a mimic doc era again.

from a quick look at the perk changes i got the feeling that yes some of the damage was dropped but only a little and the speed is upped on many perks so are the restrictions of use.
this is a good move to addressing our damage issue when it comes to quick attacks from sneak which will favour your style more so than nerf it.
yes CS is Ar based but i beleive that will push agents to work on ar setups now because they have the damage possibly to utilize that ar better.

imo we need a defence in every mimic so we are not once again forced into mimic doc.
ive rabbited on about mimic trader before these changes and now i see it has already made it more of an easier option to take.with double drains your average all out ar agent could reach somewhere around 3.5k ar in a really nice setup.
the only issue is a defensive perk action to give us a little time to fight it out with people.
we wont be insta killing people anymore so i think it would be fair to say we deserve a perklike defence action.

not sure what you mean be dicriminate between fp-features.can you explain more?
as i may agree on that alot

[Cyberleet]

letah you would fit very well on sillirions old dev team :P

do you think agent dots are so good in pvp? i cannot land them on low hp profs and by the time i do i have not much nano left to heal or i have been squished.

First I like to say, we can do the damage.

There is not a single profession we cannot hurt somehow, and I think that is a balancing factor in itself.

If a keeper, adv or fixer show up, the group can always rely on agent providing damage, this is due to the abillity we have to circumvent defensive skills.


Now, back to the dots. So our dots do too little pvp-damage and are designed very badly speedwise, costwise and in recharge as we NEED to be ready to cast some nano to get out of trouble. So that needs a fix. And in addition, Toxic Shock could be a bit nastier + making Silent Plague easier to land but still with the current check so we got alternatives against a high-dodge defence.

This is why I am very much against having all our perks changed to rifle only as attack skill.

Not to mention that we infact will loose 300 in attack rating for many perks.

not sure what you mean be dicriminate between fp-features.can you explain more?

If CH for example is limiting the performance of agent-only features, then CH must be limited instead, not the agent-stuff.

Thats what I think would be fair.

[Marinegent]

Letah. Your behind the times.

Your vision of "circumventing defenses" is non-existent. Nobody dies to just AS anymore. Heal delta will out-do our best DoTs..

Fixing dots or procs isn't what agent's need. Go read the last few months worth of threads in the agent forums.

Oh and our perks being changed to rifle is good, because these days agents have more Rifle than AS. And even if CS wasn't changed to rifle and you used a scope to land it, landing JUST CS has never killed anyone worth mentioning in pvp.