Why balance is needed - research and story.

[Pomidor]

Recently, I had teammate when was doing Croackers in Nascance. We had small talk about PVP. Topic came out by accident, but heres how it went...

Story of Gentlegirl

PlayerX: Why are you have lvl 49 all time?
Me: Doing research... this char is a BS twink
PlayerX: Oh, battlestation at tl2 is running?
Me: Actually, since few days its crowded! <--- this is about Rimor
PlayerX: I never bothered PVP. I was thinking about makeing engi...
Me: For Tl2???
PlayerX: Yes, I have lvl 220 engi, must be fun
Me: Hell no! U will get wtfpwned by everyone...
Playerx: You sure about this? Engis are good in pvp
Me: Ofc I am sure.
PlayerX: Dang, so what you would make?
Me: For lvl 49?
PlayerX: yes
Me: Enfo/Sold (with Jame) or GA fixer...
PlayerX: Thats only classes that actually do something?
Me: If u got skills, u can build trader with Jame..
PlayerX: Jame, Jame, Enf... not much of a choice
Me: If you plan build Engi, u can try for Tl4... or Tl5 with AMEP - they are quite decent there
PlayerX: I dont have months to build a twink for that range. just wanted some PVP and fun...
Me: Well... engi arent good at tl2, so u wont get any fun...

That was start of some tests. I just realized, that me, as a experienced PVPer and guy that actualy does twinks, never did that engi. So I wasnt sure, If I lied that mate or no.

Project: Gentlegirl 49/4 nanomage Engineer

Gentlegirl has played 1 days 19 hours 0 minutes 6 seconds

During twinking, I considered best aviable equippement (list will be displayed). I focused on Engi ability of survive, defance and some dmg. Choice was hard. heres what i get:

1. Damage overall
2. Hp+Defance
3. Robotic Pets and nanos
4. Survability overall
5. Conclusion


1. Damage overall:

As an engi i went 3 ways. 1st was pistol, 2nd was Rifle, 3rd was Granade.

Pistol:

Engineer has suport of Pistol Mastery perkline, none in Research. It also collides with Implants for MC aswell as with clusters for Kizzers (which had to be twice implanted to use Kizzers at all).
No buffs at all (cept basic ones). Ended with 420 AR with dualvielded ql 70 AI Pistol and 50 LE pistol. DMG wise 60/80 per hit w/o specials.

I gave it 2/10 points

Rifle

Engineer has none support for this (ofc!) in perks or research line. Its good choice when it comes to Kizzers (clusters are in diff place) and works well with MC/TS. Reached 380 AR and 560 AS (with ql 275 scope). Weapon was ql 73 X3, not OE. Regular dmg was 80-110 with avarge AS 245 (maxed out was cap on enfo, around 1200 - rare too). Attack was slow, and big chance of missint target if had some dodge ranged IPed.

I gave it 5/10

Grenade

Perks and research supports it, it goes well with Cluster wise for TS/MC. with ql 128 imps, got over 430 AR. Was testing Kyr'Ozch Granade (non typed) ql 80. None buffs for Grenade (cept basic). Damage was damn slow, and avarge hit was 100ish on mediocre/good twinks.

I will mention, that except gun, there is no granades to throw. 23 hedgehog Grenade ql 80 does 15ish dmg in pvp each 10 seconds...

I gave it 1/10

2. HP + Defance

HP
As an nanomage, I had various choice of going HP/AC. I Pick up Enhanced AI tank + Dark memories+ 3rd Merit board aswell as ql 130ish HP implants and other HP stuff. Ended with 2.2k HP. With OFAB, it would be 300 more. This ammount of HP is eatable by mediocre/decent twinks of most twinks which you will meet in BS. With coon up, will get 10 seconds to kill engineer. I will mention, that I didnt rised BD at all, so could get 250-300 hp more, so with Ofab (Instead of Comb Offi) would bring me close to 2.8k HP. Thats decent ammount for avarge twink - I must agree with that. Only enforcers will get more, buts that reasonable and logical.

Defance

Most important thing, that I was focused on. As an engineer, I am sure, all building stuff should relay on Defance abilities, from engi should take any adventages. My goal was to reach insane ammount of ACs+reflects. Partially, I have succeded.

Useing:
http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=147258
+ 198 Aura
+ 200 AC from Service Tower
+ 168 from Buff
+ 120 from Shield buff (for Rad only)
+ 980 from PERK
Reached some good AC's, especially when it comes to Radiation (most used by Enfs with panther/howlet and Jame traders/soldiers) around 5.2k - and that would be more around 300, when done more twinking into that. Other AC's were around 4 - 4.5k.

When doing test vs well twinked charracters: Enforcer/Soldier/Agent and MA, I'have noticed their dmg droped a lot, so I have reached succes, but it was only partialy. This AC's merged with HP does nothing - It would be good when my char had twice HP, but in this case, I was as same killable as anyone else.

I Gave it 8/10


Robotic pets and Nanos

Cause most tests were produced for BS, I had very limited way to test stuff, cause lack of OS buffs. Yet, in this case, it shows, how bad things are. Being focused on Nano (As u already know, had ql 75 Comb Offi) i discovered few things, that made me even more sad about balance thingy at lowbie lvls.

Robots

On selbuffs, I have reached 380 skills, which allowed me to pop ql 70 robot. It has some nice HP, but its Damage is avarge around 80. With Comb Offi and addons, I was able to use ql 90 trimmer for dmg. Nor dmg or crits/attack speed was viable in any way. This is just half of a problem. other occured in implants/symbiants.

As you may noticed, Lulled Control brain is not aviable ingame, which cuts 20 pts in nano skills at start, compared to Enf (i.e). This + coliddatoin with clusters for weapon cuts half of pet useing ability. With CM, and implanting into MC/TS I was able to cast ql 93 pet, and dmg was 120 in pvp - but problem rely in other thingy - pet, after being killed in BS cant be recasted (since CM will be gone already in decon room).

I gave it 3/10

Nanos

First of all - I was aware of how good Engi nano are. Blind aura helps a lot in CC, aswell as addons for ACs and refelcts. All I used were good and I liked how it work - they need no addition or tweak. What I discovered very odd, its that Blocker is not aviable for enginner till lvl 75 - yet, everyone has special attacks. Ofc, as an engi TL5, I was sure whats is in game, but definatelly engi should be able to use blockers from first PVP (so lvl 25 even).

I gave it 8/10

Survability overall

Haveing twinked in all stuff needed, I went to BS to test toon of ability of sruvive (was wearing OET Jess only at that time). Nor AC's or Coon or HP was any gain for my toon. Considering time and money required to build it - its pretty below any regular pvp class (enfs/fixer/soldeir) - this allowed me to see, that there is no chance, that Engi (or crat i.e) will be any good, even, if highly twinked.

Coon
Its nice to have it, really. Works well and its a must have, when you will ever try stuff I have tried, but it will just delay you death by 3 seconds. Thats not too much I will say. AC's didnt do a thing, cause to low HP and lack of heals (and I am not saying: give me heals - I just pint out, that weapons there are way to pwoerfull for that kind of AC's!)

Dmg wise

Useing Kizzers and AS for tests aswell as DoT perk and PET dmg, I must say that engi is at the bottom of everything there. maybe, when Nobstick would be equipped, things wouyld go better, but I dont think 2hb is good choice at all (or reasonable!). Good thing, that 35 dmg shield works well. overall dmg isnt any close to be able to kill anything, before I pass out - so its again nor real defence to dmg at all.



Conclusion

Engineer is old proffesion - and its old as AO. None stuff added in all Addons touched engi in way, that would make it vialbe (you can get AI armor, or LE - both will make no diffrance at all).
Perks and Procs from LE are totally useless (13 AC and 1 reflect - insane rubbish), and no buffs for weapons or even buffs/items allowing use better pet (pet themselfs are junk dmg wise). No defance cept coon - which is just death delaing item.

Some players like enforcers. Some like being sneaky agent. Other want just to heal themselfs and pick a doc. I, like my teammate said, wanted to build character that will be viable and will take not much time (thats why Tl2), and still will be fun for me - none of this happened.

Building this test char took me 6 days, costed 360 mils (and that was cheap for all this stuff!), and result was more then misserable. I have enforcer myself - which is boring and I dont find it fun at all - if I would like to be an engineer and have casual pvp there, I was even more disguested by things concerning balance.

Dear players, dear FunCom - balance, close or distant, is needed for all lvl ranges - so many players will NOT be forced to roll 4 of viable proffesions. In current state, many will taste PVP just to discover, that their beloved proffesion is GIMPED - and that may impact on further experience ingame. I belive, thery is easy way to obtain balance on lowbie lvl ranges (w/o doing impact at higer TLs at all). I got ready solutions that I might share.

Regards,
Pomidor

[lostlife]

to tell the truth, I find it hard to believe that balance can be achieved in pvp in low lv BS for professions that rely on maxing the hell out of there nano skills, because if your toolset is good with out os buffs, what will it be with them in situation that isnt BS in which you have os buffs. it would require that the nanos be completely PVP, and doing that for every BS for every prof would take ages to program and brainstorm. focusing on endgame and title 5 (2 biggest BSs from my perspective, info might be outdated, some one correct me if im wrong) would yeild the most responce from players (be it good or bad). also, post your ideas, FC hasnt released any info on how nanos are going to change (hint hint FC ) and your ideas might prove useful.

[Schultzy]

Just an advice for fun really I did it a very very long time ago and this character is rotting in totw, in like a couple of hours you can easily roll out a 49 atrox ma engi, mine rotted cuz I didn't pay attention by the time for ma attacks and wanted to use an ma only special
But ..errm so to be a little more professional you should really try it, ma skills are viable for an engi you get extra dmg from the specials you can have cm ^^ + hp for an already trox use 1hb parry sticks and have 3 attack bars and there is a little more behind it but you have to dig it...

Grenades.. Red Line Grenade launcher any1? cmon everyone forgot it or what?

Lostlife is right by meaning that if not in bs with OSB-s engi can already cast out slayer at 60 it would be nonsense to add more pet type abilites, or do bs only things that are diffucult to write code-wise.

Still in my heart yes I m crying for balance to every tl's oh and cmon... my worst memory is from a little more then 1 year ago when my soldier was 45 not even 49!!! entered bs tl2 killed a lvl 20 grey player didn't want to even let him run but have to recap core... and he didn't understand.. anyway MY FIRST KILL EVER and I got -26 pvp score... so I hade -876534673647364/2000 in my scores totally bugged thx funcom

[McKnuckleSamwich]

lol schulz.

[Notcrattey]

At TL2 my 49 engi could just barely put out a warbot on BS, and it sucked.


But let's be honest, shade is the absolute bottom of the foodchain for TL2, here's the order of best to worst in my experience:

Doc/enf/Soldier/Trader->MP->fixer->Agent->MA/NT->Crat->Keeper->engi/advy->shade

Of course this highly dependent on how you play, what weapons you use, IP spent and such, but this is how I see it.

to tell the truth, I find it hard to believe that balance can be achieved in pvp in low lv BS for professions that rely on maxing the hell out of there nano skills, because if your toolset is good with out os buffs, what will it be with them in situation that isnt BS in which you have os buffs. it would require that the nanos be completely PVP, and doing that for every BS for every prof would take ages to program and brainstorm. focusing on endgame and title 5 (2 biggest BSs from my perspective, info might be outdated, some one correct me if im wrong) would yeild the most responce from players (be it good or bad). also, post your ideas, FC hasnt released any info on how nanos are going to change (hint hint FC ) and your ideas might prove useful.

Problem with engi is their toolset just sucks below level 50.

[lostlife]

their BS toolset sucks, up to a point, engies are the undisputed masters of soloing at low levels (with mochs and a wrangle can create a monsterous machine with obsene hp, and damn good damage, combined with what ever wep engis use)

as for non BS pvp: same applies, just hide the uber bot around corner till person accepts duel (or just plow into them if there flagged) sure bot can be kited, but if i recall, means said that kiting pets will be made much more difficult in the not so distant future. or maybe im quoting some one thats quoting some one else that misheard...

[Grind42]

I had this exact same idea with eng, I rolled a 44 Engi & twinked the living hell out of it with a red line. Had like 280 NCU etc.... anyway it sucked only fun was yalming up & flying onto the roof in Bori then unyalming & sending pet out to play with unsuspecting victims.

Anyway it phailed so I lvl-ed to 60 & did TOTW, that was okay but got pretty boring. Went to Foremans & got a pistol.

Bottom line is Low Lvl engi sucks in pvp.

[Ciex]

Middle lvl engi also sucks in pvp

[Izolenta]

Middle lvl engi also sucks in pvp

no, they don't

[Notcrattey]

as for non BS pvp: same applies, just hide the uber bot around corner till person accepts duel (or just plow into them if there flagged) sure bot can be kited, but if i recall, means said that kiting pets will be made much more difficult in the not so distant future. or maybe im quoting some one thats quoting some one else that misheard...

One snare and you're ****ed, enfs can kill your pet, docs can init debuff and tank.

Believe me, engi pets are not some unstoppable force in pvp unless you're dueling gimps.


Oh and traders can knock you out of sneak, good day.

[lostlife]

professions other than engis are just as screwed by snares and init debuffs. enfos would have a hard time killing a pet with 30k hp at lv 60. combined damage between twinked pets and good weps is good. Combined damage between pets that you use without wrangle/mochs and a good wep, leaves something to be desired. also, there was mention of making pets less kitable (and if not i support that).

why would you need to be in sneak? in duels sneaking only matters if person can't kill the pets before they kill the opponent (or weaken then enough for you to do it), as for traders specificly, they can snare your pets far away, which is bad, but thats what traders do, render weapons useless. and tahts what your bot is, a weapon

in flagged situations just hide around the corner, or on a roof, not nessaserily in sneak