Lowbie trader ideas

[Saetos]

"Oh look, a Trader".

*press Barrow Strength*

Zerg Trader. The end.

20 minute timer and difficult to use by 1-21s.

[Lupusceleri]

"Oh look, a Trader".

*press Barrow Strength*

Zerg Trader. The end.

You're also completely missing the fact that the Trader can be grace rushed. By the time the Trader has rezzed, rebuffed and come back, the anti root tools (assuming no solitus dudes with Tacky Hack) should be almost back up and the defenders can wait/log out outside gas and grace rush the Trader again.

Like I said earlier, multiple defenders can already take down individual attackers very well. Points scored on behalf of the single attacker due to either vastly better gear or the defenders waiting around in gas to be rooted/drained/pwned individually, is no reasoning for anyone to be nerfed, it's a reasoning to engage your damn brain instead of assuming your badass twink can just facerolldeath anyone.

*press Barrow Strength* and grace rush.

..oh, shi--

A split second after starting to attack the trader, he lands a nanite and suddenly you're helpless. Because he had auto select attacker on and keeps his finger hovering over the Nanite button.

The problem with traders is that you practically can't counter the drains with the over 9000 nanoskills a trader has, unless you max out Notum Repulsor (which is boring). And when the drain lands, you're useless because of the HUGE debuff the drain has. Combine the drain with a half decent evade setup and your trader is now immortal.

What needs to change is the fight being practically over when the Trader lands a drain. Turn the weaponskill drains into an AAO drain: no more OE weapon, but the Trader is still harder to kill. Dunno about nanoskills, guess that its debuff should be halved. 1k PM/TS on a TL2-3 Trader is goddamn ridiculous.

PS: everyone dies if they're zerged, not just Traders. So no, not a valid justification for Trader power. At all.

[Hacre]

The problem with traders is that you practically can't counter the drains with the over 9000 nanoskills a trader has

As stated, Traders are powerful 1v1. Two non idiots can drop a Trader. All that needs to change is locking Nanites to level 75 or level 90.

[Armus]

As stated, Traders are powerful 1v1. Two non idiots can drop a Trader.

But that's just plain wrong that it needs two to kill 1 trader. You can't find a clearer way to say that traders need a nerf.

All that needs to change is locking Nanites to level 75 or level 90.

More like put much nerfier ones ig for lower levels and lock those to tl7. or nerf them altogether.

[Hacre]

But that's just plain wrong that it needs two to kill 1 trader. You can't find a clearer way to say that traders need a nerf.

Why is it? Traders excel in 1v1 combat. Why is this so wrong? They lack in other areas, that other professions excel at.

Doctors at TL7 have needed more than one person to drop them, typically, for years.

Look at Enforcer survivability across various TLs.

Traders are strong 1v1, they're the only profession who have to continually engage their defences on each new protagonist, that requirement alone justifies how powerful those defences are, since it's not just a "cast once, work against many" or "press one perk once, work against many" defence like many others.

More like put much nerfier ones ig for lower levels and lock those to tl7. or nerf them altogether.

So restrict nanites to being used in PvM only from 205 to 215. Smart.

Is there anyone you -don't- want to nerf? A single Nanite Divest cast by a TL4 Trader isn't an auto win and Plunder has a stupid high defence check and rightly so. If they were both 90% or 100% land chance you'd have a point, but they're not.

[Lupusceleri]

As stated, Traders are powerful 1v1. Two non idiots can drop a Trader. All that needs to change is locking Nanites to level 75 or level 90.

Everyone dies to 2 equally equipped and skilled opponents, not just Traders. Move along.

Why is it? Traders excel in 1v1 combat. Why is this so wrong? They lack in other areas, that other professions excel at.

Doctors at TL7 have needed more than one person to drop them, typically, for years.

Look at Enforcer survivability across various TLs.

Traders are strong 1v1, they're the only profession who have to continually engage their defences on each new protagonist, that requirement alone justifies how powerful those defences are, since it's not just a "cast once, work against many" or "press one perk once, work against many" defence like many others.

We all agree TL7 Doctors need a nerf, and that Enforcers have insane (overpowered even?) damage endurance.

Trader one-against-many defence is called Flow of Time. You cast it, run out of range, heal up, and start draining them all 1 by 1 from 40m away. That's why you always make sure to cap nano casting range on a debuffer, if you can at all afford the NCU loss. Effective use of this tactic can be viewed here.

So restrict nanites to being used in PvM only from 205 to 215. Smart.

Is there anyone you -don't- want to nerf? A single Nanite Divest cast by a TL4 Trader isn't an auto win and Plunder has a stupid high defence check and rightly so. If they were both 90% or 100% land chance you'd have a point, but they're not.

But it is an auto win. Weapons go OE, evades setup takes care of perks/regulars, nanos can't be casted anymore. The whole outcome of the fight depends on countering the first drain which isn't likely to happen, unless you're an Enforcer (which we all agree are OP twinks).

[erozc]

I concur with the above poster about traders in the sense that if you're comparing the staying power of a lowbie trader to that of a TL7 doc, or enfos of various TLs, that should be sign enough that they are out of whack.

[Hacre]

I concur with the above poster about traders in the sense that if you're comparing the staying power of a lowbie trader to that of a TL7 doc, or enfos of various TLs, that should be sign enough that they are out of whack.

Yeah, better to nerf Enfs, Traders and Docs, to use the reasoning given here, into annoyance instead of addressing issues with other classes.

[erozc]

Yeah, better to nerf Enfs, Traders and Docs, to use the reasoning given here, into annoyance instead of addressing issues with other classes.

Your comment has from little to nothing to do with the fact that two wrongs don't make a right. Furthermore, I don't know where you got the idea that some of the mentioned professions should be nerfed into annoyance, and as such I believe you should work on your quoting skills in order to better present your arguments.

[Livesangry]

Why is it? Traders excel in 1v1 combat. Why is this so wrong? They lack in other areas, that other professions excel at.

Doctors at TL7 have needed more than one person to drop them, typically, for years.

Look at Enforcer survivability across various TLs.

Traders are strong 1v1, they're the only profession who have to continually engage their defences on each new protagonist, that requirement alone justifies how powerful those defences are, since it's not just a "cast once, work against many" or "press one perk once, work against many" defence like many others.

okay, so being an trader and excelling at 1vs1 combat should give you the right to be untouchable by any other profs at 1vs? good thinking.

Docters at TL7 sometimes indeed need more then 1 player to drop them, but still they don't get the kickass dmg/debuffs/evades like an trader does.

i can't say anything about enfo except TL2 range, as i never played one. theyre OP at TL2 though.

So because you need to drain each and every opponent you're defense (drains) should be so strong that with one drain (not counterable) you're targets AR drops by an half(which basically unarms the target), and an second drian can put him into negative AR? and that is even with ignoring the fact they you also get buffed from draining somebody.

[PingBong]

first off, im gonna keep this sub tl5 as thats what this thread is about.

looks like the main defense here is that "traders are supposed to be good @ 1v1", does that include completely dominating sub tl5 pvp? Sure u can say other profs can kill a trader from time to time at these lvls but honestly they are just inferior, whatever x prof twink can achieve a trader twink can do better. In addition to that theres no official statement whatsoever about what traders are "supposed to be in 1v1", in fact their toolset is much more geared towards mass pvp and suprise! they are undoubtedly the best @ that sub tl5 too.

So basically for lowbie pvp traders are the best, whatever lvl twink u roll at these lvls u just cant go wrong with trader. You can bull**** all u want on forums but u wont find a single person ingame that wont tell u that trader is op in lowbie pvp.

Now for the ways to make other profs have a point in lowbie pvp, save for enf, agents, mps and fixers which hold some merit in lowbie pvp compared to a trader all other profs atm are just various degrees of useless depending on the lvl were dealing with.
First i would increase engi and crat RK pets NR by alot, im talking atleast 2k nr on top rk pets because right now they just get shut down way too easily.
Secondly i would make engi perk/ma attack/shade perk nano drains accessible from lower lvls (starting from 10 would be nice).
Thirdly i would remove PM and TS buff from all drains.

[Saetos]

first off, im gonna keep this sub tl5 as thats what this thread is about.

looks like the main defense here is that "traders are supposed to be good @ 1v1", does that include completely dominating sub tl5 pvp? Sure u can say other profs can kill a trader from time to time at these lvls but honestly they are just inferior, whatever x prof twink can achieve a trader twink can do better. In addition to that theres no official statement whatsoever about what traders are "supposed to be in 1v1", in fact their toolset is much more geared towards mass pvp and suprise! they are undoubtedly the best @ that sub tl5 too.

So basically for lowbie pvp traders are the best, whatever lvl twink u roll at these lvls u just cant go wrong with trader. You can bull**** all u want on forums but u wont find a single person ingame that wont tell u that trader is op in lowbie pvp.

Having a 49 Martial Artist myself (damn roots), I have no problem seeing your problems with Traders from your point of view. They are very mismanageable at low levels, and I hope this post gives a finer explanation.

I will agree that Traders are way too powerful at low levels but the main reason for this is not because of drains (yes I'm serious). Traders with drains have access to monstrously powerful weapons at very low levels (JAME Blaster Prototype being the prominent choice) and with CC tools as they are, a competent Trader can keep a target rooted for eternity while whittling them down with drains. These two being fixed would take a big chunk out of the problem.

A second factor is the low population at TL2-5 PVP encounters. You probably recognize that many, many people do not bother to PVP at these low levels, and that most players' first goal is to make a 220 character. Thusly 220 is where the main PVP theatre happens, leaving a small clique of TL2-5 players to dilly-dally around the playfields. And this is why the Trader is so powerful - if only 2 or 3 people on one side are going to show up to a battle, of course the Trader is going to have a field day since the amount of targets is very manageable with the toolset the Trader is provided.

A third factor is OSB's... which is easily fixed in quite a few ways. This is indeed a big problem with Traders (since they can get a ton of NCU and their toolset is very nanoprogram-based) alongside other professions of course, and this I will always agree with.

If you REALLY want a fix to drains, my only suggestion would be to impose a PVP-Target level lock starting from Divest/Plunder (Weak) or somewhere around that region. I will not allow any fix to these drains that hamper PVM capabilities, however.

Now for the ways to make other profs have a point in lowbie pvp, save for enf, agents, mps and fixers which hold some merit in lowbie pvp compared to a trader all other profs atm are just various degrees of useless depending on the lvl were dealing with.
First i would increase engi and crat RK pets NR by alot, im talking atleast 2k nr on top rk pets because right now they just get shut down way too easily.
Secondly i would make engi perk/ma attack/shade perk nano drains accessible from lower lvls (starting from 10 would be nice).
Thirdly i would remove PM and TS buff from all drains.

Everything above is fine, but WTF, why this? This would bitchslap low level PVM Traders, since they depend on being able to ladder drains to be able to cast the higher Health Freeloaders/Plunders/Hagglers they need to survive in solo environments, not to mention being able to use higher wrangles. Traders are already not very well respected for their team capabilities -- nanopool is no issue in teams, Trader damage is a bit too low, OSB MP buffs remove the need for Umbrals sometimes -- and something even this little would just make it worse.

[Hacre]

Everything above is fine, but WTF, why this? This would bitchslap low level PVM Traders, since they depend on being able to ladder drains to be able to cast the higher Health Freeloaders/Plunders/Hagglers they need to survive in solo environments, not to mention being able to use higher wrangles. Traders are already not very well respected for their team capabilities -- nanopool is no issue in teams, Trader damage is a bit too low, OSB MP buffs remove the need for Umbrals sometimes -- and something even this little would just make it worse.

Perhaps forum experience should have been a factor for the Prof application; you're being trolled here bud.

As for everything above being fine, no it isn't. As for Traders dominating sub TL5 PvP, no they don't. TL2, yes. Low TL3, probably. Higher than that? No. The word isn't dominating, the word is "strong".

[PingBong]

As for Traders dominating sub TL5 PvP, no they don't. TL2, yes. Low TL3, probably. Higher than that? No. The word isn't dominating, the word is "strong".

sub tl5 consists of tl1, tl2, tl3 and tl4.. the first 3 being definitely owned by traders and 4th is debatable but im having a hard time picking a prof to consistently beat traders at these lvls as well.. which leaves what?

Everything above is fine, but WTF, why this? This would bitchslap low level PVM Traders, since they depend on being able to ladder drains to be able to cast the higher Health Freeloaders/Plunders/Hagglers they need to survive in solo environments, not to mention being able to use higher wrangles. Traders are already not very well respected for their team capabilities -- nanopool is no issue in teams, Trader damage is a bit too low, OSB MP buffs remove the need for Umbrals sometimes -- and something even this little would just make it worse.

puting people into negative AR with 2 casts or 3.1 seconds is effectively a death sentence in most cases, they should be restricted to use the appropriate strength drains @ their level and there should be a point to having a casting focused setup instead of wearing whatever the **** and still casting top nanos by default

[Saetos]

Perhaps forum experience should have been a factor for the Prof application; you're being trolled here bud.

Trolling or not, it's very hard to tell what ideas should be taken seriously and what cannot from FC's point of view, especially with such a ruthless topic as Traders in lowbie PVP environments. I just wanna make sure PVM Traders aren't compromised because someone was vocal (always welcome ofc Stabbeh ) about lowbie Traders in PVP.

And yes, Traders can drain into the negatives at lowbie levels and it sucks, I know; believe me, I've been on the receiving end of Trader drains many a time too. There's not many ways to fix this, however, without making Traders laughable in PVM. Would I like a fix? Sure. Do my fellow Traders want one as well? Survey says... not really; a vast majority are weary of fixes because if something is screwed up for their twinks, it's game over. I'm well aware of that as well.

So, what else do you have in mind?

[Lupusceleri]

Trolling or not, it's very hard to tell what ideas should be taken seriously and what cannot from FC's point of view, especially with such a ruthless topic as Traders in lowbie PVP environments. I just wanna make sure PVM Traders aren't compromised because someone was vocal (always welcome ofc Stabbeh ) about lowbie Traders in PVP.

And yes, Traders can drain into the negatives at lowbie levels and it sucks, I know; believe me, I've been on the receiving end of Trader drains many a time too. There's not many ways to fix this, however, without making Traders laughable in PVM. Would I like a fix? Sure. Do my fellow Traders want one as well? Survey says... not really; a vast majority are weary of fixes because if something is screwed up for their twinks, it's game over. I'm well aware of that as well.

So, what else do you have in mind?

Change the weapon skill (de)buffs on drains into an AAO (de)buff. It will boost PvM traders since NPCs aren't affected by weapon skill drains but are affected by AAO drains, while at the same time preventing the Trader from equipping an insanely high QL weapon, and drains won't OE someone's weapon anymore so if they DO land a hit it still hurts at least.

Dunno about the nanoskill (de)buffs seeing some profs hardcore rely on nanoskills instead of weapons, maybe reduce the debuff while keeping buff the same. Or reducing debuff component to 30 seconds or 1 minute while keeping buff component at the original 3 minutes.. of course making sure the trader can't use a drain on himself as that'd be an exploit, changing this would be a good thing for traders as well since you won't accidentally drain yourself anymore.

[Saetos]

Change the weapon skill (de)buffs on drains into an AAO (de)buff. It will boost PvM traders since NPCs aren't affected by weapon skill drains but are affected by AAO drains, while at the same time preventing the Trader from equipping an insanely high QL weapon, and drains won't OE someone's weapon anymore so if they DO land a hit it still hurts at least.

The idea of partially or fully translating the weaponskill debuff over to -AAO is a pretty kewl idea. A few things:

1) PVM - high drains would equal very effective unbreakable blinds. As someone who has soloed mobs like Astypalia/Tinos with rather blah equip with our current toolset (and without Nanobot Defense/YEEIYF) this could probably be a bit too over the top.
2) The problem is not that Traders can equip high level weapons - a QL130 Home Defender at level 40 is "good damage", a 220 MBC on at 120-130 is "nice damage" but other professions with fast specials will knock Traders over in DD. The problem, rather, is that these drains allow them to equip high level *special* weapons, like the JAME. Again, a big part of Trader PVM is having access to high level nanoprograms and weapons via the drains; just need to draw the line at certain weapons is all.

Dunno about the nanoskill (de)buffs seeing some profs hardcore rely on nanoskills instead of weapons, maybe reduce the debuff while keeping buff the same. Or reducing debuff component to 30 seconds or 1 minute while keeping buff component at the original 3 minutes.. of course making sure the trader can't use a drain on himself as that'd be an exploit, changing this would be a good thing for traders as well since you won't accidentally drain yourself anymore.

Well, the professions that do require nanoskills can at most points live with being able to cast lower nanos (at least at high levels). NTs can cast lower doubles, pets can stay in attack mode, etc etc. At low levels though.. meh, maybe. Could be worth considering I guess.

An across-the-board "can't cast hostiles on yourself" would be terrific.

[styles999]

I have two lowbie trader twinks that regularly wipe anywhere from 2 to 5 opponents with ease.

But it isn't just traders that have the potential to do so well in lowbie PvP. With kizzermoles, a neleb rod, and a Flurry of Blows, I have among the highest PvP damage out of all 10-25 twinks on my 22 trader, more NCU than any other prof, and the ability to make anyone's weapon 50 to 0%, but I've come across agents who are sometimes able to alpha me even when I react insantly and enfos who can land hits double drained who would kill me with their damage shield alone if I tanked them toe to toe.

A 30-45 enf with beaters can take down up to an entire team of twinks, and I've done this myself. A 30-45 trader can also take down a few twinks solo. A tl3 MP can do the same and I've seen NR agents and enfs with CI do the same.

There needs to be careful rebalance at low levels for multiple professions, not just traders, to give other profs a chance to make viable twinks. But yes, drains are one thing that should be adjusted. Nanites at tl2 and 3 are the most severe imbalances in lowbie PvP.

well said , this is exactly how most lowbie pvp is. tho the biggest diff for most at those lvls is "How" much work it takes, some with carb+rod+imps and your good, others take much more.

[schloops]

So, what else do you have in mind?

Double the requirements of flow of time or put a big hole in their drains so they need a minimum level to be able to reach the next set of drains.


Doubt I need to tell you what needs to be nerfed to hell for tl7 ^^.

[Saetos]

Double the requirements of flow of time

CC tool mechanics will probably be adjusted in the future, so probably not necessary

or put a big hole in their drains so they need a minimum level to be able to reach the next set of drains.

Elaborate a bit? Again, I really don't want to collapse or nerf a core functionality of Traders by cutting off access to high drains in PVM encounters.