I can't believe you nerfed Soldiers..

[Gatester]

1hb perks deal more than 150 pvm damage now? If that doesn't qualify as an improvement, I'm at a loss for words. Oh, you mean 1hb perks locking out 1he perks? That Funcom fix doesn't even work, as usual, all you have to do is queue them up together. This is the reason every enf and their dog went 1hb/1he setup instead of sticking with 2he.

It is not as easy as you think, especially considering 1he includes chained perks. 1hb AOE stun bugs and will not land most the time on running targets, trying to land melee perks on kiters is terrible as well, and the fact that the perks lock each other out has made our perk timing much harder. The reason 1he/1hb is effective at all is because most people PVP like they PVM.

Pretty sure Enf can get more than 2650 def, seeing how I've been missing perks with ~2900 AR. Not counting Wit btw.

Highway, a temp def bonus you can negate with tranq+ kiting or bullseye. Asside from that, if you think these soldiers hate how much sacrificing for def would effect their AR, imagine what it does to enfs. Enforcers could not pvp with 3k or less AR, which is what a setup with that sort of static def would end up at.

We do not want to exclude the chance for OSB or tower benefits either.

Soldier Ofab Back >>> NotuComm when you know you aren't going to evade perks. 5% reflect, and way more ACs (which you as PvM enf should know the importance of).

Hence hotswapping gear? Pretty much you are saying exactly what I said, when you can evade perks or much of a players regular damage, then Notucomm and some def gear would be better than 5% reflects. Honestly Lupus, would you remove your perfected or masterpiece bracers for 7% reflects if it means you will get perked? It seems that the players who become the best pvpers are hotswappers, and the ones complaining the most generally have not mastered it.

Most of you assume someone cannot use these setups because they are not "cookie cutter" and would fail on paper, but few of my toons are ever common setups which gives me an edge on predicting how a setup can perform. I do not just include static paper x and y values when judging setups either, I judge playstyle as well which is how a toon I make that should fail ends up working out better than predicted. Some setups work better depending on who is using it and can't or will not work is not in my dictionary, only how can we make it work.


I'm waiting on Berinda's testing which may be a while. If you guys take offense to me questioning you so strongly, I honestly do not intend it that way. I simply have no tolerance for those who choose to complain and ignore something they will not give a chance or try for themselves because of assumptions, and I will passionately defend the alternatives as someone who has strayed from the common path and found success. If Berinda is the only one of you willing to give different setups a chance, I hope you guys can at least support her as I will.

[Lupusceleri]

It is not as easy as you think, especially considering 1he includes chained perks. 1hb AOE stun bugs and will not land most the time on running targets, trying to land melee perks on kiters is terrible as well, and the fact that the perks lock each other out has made our perk timing much harder. The reason 1he/1hb is effective at all is because most people PVP like they PVM.

You Are Next takes care of the kiters until you can catch up, from there on the enf has access to various stun perks and in the form of Crush Bone even an unremovable perksnare to prevent the kiter running away. Should You Are Next not work (such as in a duel), you have rootgrafts. However, I rarely see a Soldier kiting an Enf in a duel.

So, in conclusion, 1hb+1he is not nerfed at all.

Highway, a temp def bonus you can negate with tranq+ kiting or bullseye. Asside from that, if you think these soldiers hate how much sacrificing for def would effect their AR, imagine what it does to enfs. Enforcers could not pvp with 3k or less AR, which is what a setup with that sort of static def would end up at.

We do not want to exclude the chance for OSB or tower benefits either.

Missing one or two times as an Enf by bad luck does not lose the fight seeing how you lose maybe 1k damage and then move on, however missing the 2nd bullet of your Full Auto by bad luck as a Soldier does. Suddenly your supposed 10k+ damage hit becomes an 1k damage hit (change numbers to real values of course). The bullets that should have been fired after the 2nd bullet did not get fired at all. This is the way game mechanics work, you can argue all you want but it's still a fact.

Hence hotswapping gear? Pretty much you are saying exactly what I said, when you can evade perks or much of a players regular damage, then Notucomm and some def gear would be better than 5% reflects. Honestly Lupus, would you remove your perfected or masterpiece bracers for 7% reflects if it means you will get perked? It seems that the players who become the best pvpers are hotswappers, and the ones complaining the most generally have not mastered it.

Comparing NotuComm vs Ofab Soldier Back, with Perfected DB vs 7% reflect bracer? Are you for real?

No, of course I would not remove the Masterpiece or Perfected DB Bracer, for one it takes me a trip into Mimic Trader to get it back on and second it buffs me so much more than just 75/20 AAD. On top of that I have way less reflects than a Soldier.

Bad argument is bad.

Most of you assume someone cannot use these setups because they are not "cookie cutter" and would fail on paper, but few of my toons are ever common setups which gives me an edge on predicting how a setup can perform. I do not just include static paper x and y values when judging setups either, I judge playstyle as well which is how a toon I make that should fail ends up working out better than predicted. Some setups work better depending on who is using it and can't or will not work is not in my dictionary, only how can we make it work.

I am a very experienced 220 Agent in defensive setup, and have around 2900-3000 evades depending on buffs and towers. This is the amount of evades your supposed evade soldier would have, isn't it?

Now, I can tell you a thing or two about how this evade rating works, in the real world:

- You'll be harder to kill on the Battlestation, since gimps can't touch you.
- Anyone in a comparable setup is going to hit and perk you with everything they've got.
- The exceptions to this rule are other Agents, Doctors, and Meta-Physicists.
- If you have 300 towers and your opponent doesn't, lower AR perks such as Brawling vs Evade or RangedEnergy vs Dodge might miss. MIGHT, because I've had them land on me even in full evades setup with 300 towers.
- FullAuto users will have a hard time 30% capping FullAuto on you, even after debuffing your Dodge. This, again, because when one bullet in the chain misses you the whole chain will terminate at that point. Other specials, or perks, do not have this problem.
- Teaming with the right peoples at war or Tarasque can, indeed, make you unperkable. Soldiers have a better defense than evades against a zerg though, and it's called AMS. When AMS goes down (or is debuffed), you run to the back of your own zerg and come back when it's ready again.

I am still using a defense setup for above reasons. Doing so costs me a lot of killing power, but I do not put as much value into killing fast as Soldiers obviously do with their race against the clock. When I am fighting exclusively endgame players I will always swap away from my evades setup into higher hp/cost/AR, excepting a fight against Doctor, Soldier, or Fixer.

PS (it's not related to what we are discussing and you know it):

Highway, a temp def bonus you can negate with tranq+ kiting or bullseye.

There is no such thing as (easily) landing Bullseye on an Enforcer with anywhere between 3k and 4k NR on full defense. Even if it miiiight land sometimes, perk timing on an Enforcer is crucial for me: during his alpha I need to land Concussive Shot, or die. At that point I have no time to land Bullseye "fast", instead I am very busy casting Complete Healing trying to stay alive.

If I wanted to use my perks to deal damage to the Enforcer I'd just wait until any def perks ran out, rather than wasting my time on a nano that won't land.

[Gatester]

I am a very experienced 220 Agent in defensive setup, and have around 2900-3000 evades depending on buffs and towers. This is the amount of evades your supposed evade soldier would have, isn't it?

Now, I can tell you a thing or two about how this evade rating works, in the real world:

- You'll be harder to kill on the Battlestation, since gimps can't touch you.
- Anyone in a comparable setup is going to hit and perk you with everything they've got.
- The exceptions to this rule are other Agents, Doctors, and Meta-Physicists.
- If you have 300 towers and your opponent doesn't, lower AR perks such as Brawling vs Evade or RangedEnergy vs Dodge might miss. MIGHT, because I've had them land on me even in full evades setup with 300 towers.
- FullAuto users will have a hard time 30% capping FullAuto on you, even after debuffing your Dodge. This, again, because when one bullet in the chain misses you the whole chain will terminate at that point. Other specials, or perks, do not have this problem.
- Teaming with the right peoples at war or Tarasque can, indeed, make you unperkable. Soldiers have a better defense than evades against a zerg though, and it's called AMS. When AMS goes down (or is debuffed), you run to the back of your own zerg and come back when it's ready again.

I am still using a defense setup for above reasons. Doing so costs me a lot of killing power, but I do not put as much value into killing fast as Soldiers obviously do with their race against the clock. When I am fighting exclusively endgame players I will always swap away from my evades setup into higher hp/cost/AR, excepting a fight against Doctor, Soldier, or Fixer.

That is almost exactly what I was trying to explain, this is how the setup would be intended to work based on my own experiences as well. Even more advantageous over an agent, however, is that a soldier could hotswap for +200 AR during AMS, and only need the full evades when AMS is going down and survival is most important. It does not seem like the end of the world to me, merely a setup that is effective in one area at a sacrifice to another and enhanced by playstyle.

Now if the others in this thread can understand this there should not be any more issues.

[Tyfowler]

I love the agent and the enf going back and forth at each other in a soldier got nerfed thread

[Ocene]

so when did fc nerf soldiers?

They changed Power UP perks to be usable only with RE weapons.

This after we spent like 2 years working on AR weapons with FC to push soldiers to use them.

soldiers cant alpha anything anyway so whats the big deal

We could do a good job at alphaing. PU perks and a surprise attack were my only weapons against some of the classes in BS (i.e Trader, and with luck some Engis, yes yes).

We can't alpha anymore..not by the definition of Alpha.

[Ocene]

If you try to PvP on ANYTHING with "average" equipment, u get what you deserve. I have several billion credz worth of equip sunk into my soldier, along with 260+ days /played. Ty prolly has close to that. OUR Soldiers do quite well, thank you. We dont PvP with "average" equipment, and if you do, then I suggest you start farming. "Good" Shades are very dangerous in PvP, but if hes got "average" equip, just like a soldier with "average" equip, Ill eat his face.

I was going to respond to keitelo, but reading this just said it all.

BTW Keitelo I do have a shade, full combined commando, awesome weaps, etc and not 220, only 217.. which is plenty to WTFLOLPWN tons of people.

[Ocene]

soldier so called "alpha" is midget poop to their burst/FA dps which remains intact, imo they deserve every bit of nerf coming their way

Coming from a pretty famous engi, this sentence has made me laugh.

[Ocene]

Bah I skipped a gazillion of pages of replies..

..my take-away with this is quite simple:

You don't nerf a profession (or class depending which game you're playing) like this without consequences to the entire game.

Deserved or not, you have to keep in mind there are people that spent years working on their playstyle and match the gear for it.

Kissing it all goodbye will just make more people leave game, and I don't think AO needs more people leaving now.

[Ocene]

Just under 3k in both isn't going to net you squat, so my point pretty much stands. You might evade an occasional regular hit, or have a low hitting FA on the 3rd Tuesday in Lent. Woop.

Why does RK2 insist on thrashing the dead horse that is the "evade" Soldier when it's highly pointless outside of -maybe- PvM? When the more offensive options are actually better, because the target you're worrying about evading, dies faster?

Srs question.

Srs question demands a srs answer.

Evade soldier was the norm pre-LE...then we saw some awesome guys pwning in Borealis or TW and tanking several people ..good stuff.

Post-LE, evade soldiers vanished...they were all gone for some reason. However new styles appeared.

Some went full DEF, like Daiken. I tried it too, it's not bad actually.
Some went full AR, offense is your only defense..yes yes.
Some tried different weapons, or full reflects, tons of things to try.

But then the evolution of the other classes pretty much directed our own choices.

Given the DEF people had.. a normal AR setup was not enough.. you had to sacrifice something..and so people had to give up to perform. And they did. Some were real successful at it. And thought, this new setup they came up with will "own" forever.

.. but "forever" in AO lasts one patch.

[Ocene]

Rather an over exaggerated thread, soldier aren't suffering badly now, nor have they ever, and will most likely not do so in the future either, no matter how much you want to take changes related to one prof and overlay them on the current environment, neatly forgetting that everyone else is also having things changed. And that's without even taking into consideration that we have seen nothing about changes regarding nanos, only been told that everything is being majorly reworked...

Less panic, please.

Anything that radically changes a profession demands panic.

I agree that it needs to be shared by all profs since they will all be changed, but you're talking to people who spent years to reach a gamestyle and setup, can't just flip a page over and restart....won't happen.

[Obtena]

Anything that radically changes a profession demands panic.

I agree that it needs to be shared by all profs since they will all be changed, but you're talking to people who spent years to reach a gamestyle and setup, can't just flip a page over and restart....won't happen.

That's too bad then, because many profs are getting a revamp of their entire playstyle. If people aren't willing to adapt to that and re-learn, well, they didn't have much problem with the way AO was working before the balance, which we know isn't really the case.

[Armus]

That's too bad then, because many profs are getting a revamp of their entire playstyle. If people aren't willing to adapt to that and re-learn, well, they didn't have much problem with the way AO was working before the balance, which we know isn't really the case.

Did anyone ask for the entire playstyle of their toons to be changed? Idk, maybe they did. In that case I must have missed it. As for the tough luck comment to ppl who don't want to spend weeks rebuilding their toons.. Well. if ppl quit it is bad news for all. It's not like we have too much ppl in game, do we?

[Obtena]

Did anyone ask for the entire playstyle of their toons to be changed?

If you can tell me how that is even a relevant or sensical question considering that changing playstyle of a prof is a valid method to re-balancing, I might spend the time to consider giving you a more substantial answer. If anyone quits, it's because they weren't onboard with the re-balancing effort in the first place so ... in that case, no one gives a toss what you think or say.

[Armus]

If you can tell me how that is even a relevant or sensical question considering that changing playstyle of a prof is a valid method to re-balancing,.

Says who? You? laff.

Personally I believe that ppl choose a certain class because they like the playstyle. I think there is a pretty big risk of them getting disappointed if after 3000 horus spent their playstyle is changed into something they don't fancy. But I guess you don't reason that way.

I might spend the time to consider giving you a more substantial answer.

Believe it or not, you're not the center of the universe, I care more about the cockroaches in the dumpster across the street may think than I do about your opinions.

Now shoo from the soldier forums, since you are unwilling to make real posts and even openly admit so. In other words you're trolling again.

If anyone quits, it's because they weren't onboard with the re-balancing effort in the first place so ... in that case, no one gives a toss what you think or say.

Awesome. More of the pro trolls wisdom. Give us more, we love it.

ps. I personally don't pretend to speak for the entire population of this game. Perhaps you as a pro should be adult enough to not make such claims either?

[Berinda]

Closing the thread to cut off an argument.