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Thread: Summary of Profession Rebalancing: Round 1

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwalkx View Post
    Why would you want to remove the summon line totally? The fact that they are not useful now, doesn't mean they can't be fixed?
    if it were made so that it summoned specific ammo it would be great but i dont see the benefit of spamming a nano not know what you'll get.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkwalkx View Post
    And i don't think fixers need much more defence perks, Aimed Shot is going to be changed, and as far as i know mongo rage as well. Same for the double/triple nukes. All of these seem nice changes for the fixer, as they bypass the fixer's main defensive tool: evades.
    ok i know but the high AR prof's are murder not specifically those things
    and sneak attack is just as big a problem as aimed shot

    Quote Originally Posted by darkwalkx View Post
    Regarding the ip reset; i've been playing somewhere since 2004 if im correct (i know, only recently created this forum account), and everytime a big change comes to ao, a full ip reset is given.
    ok that i was not aware of fyi i was froob for a long while so never noticed it b4.
    Michaelpete - 220 fixer
    Ipwnts10 - 150 soldier

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by michaelpete View Post
    if it were made so that it summoned specific ammo it would be great but i dont see the benefit of spamming a nano not know what you'll get.

    ok i know but the high AR prof's are murder not specifically those things
    and sneak attack is just as big a problem as aimed shot

    - Sure, but as i said, they said they are looking into revamping/fixing the line, so that could mean stuff like making it targeted ammo/something totally different.

    - I actually think they will alter sneak attack as well, altough i haven't read up about that one myself yet. Though, there are less melee proffesions in totall compared to ranged if im right; even IF (don't know about that exact myself) sneak attack might be as strong as our CURRENT AS, it would still mean you would have less opponents using 1 of the two current versions against you.
    The key to happiness is self-delusion. Don't think of yourself as an organic pain collector racing toward oblivion. - Scott Adams

    Programmer n. - An ingenious device that turns caffeine into code

    Jesus paid for our sins - now let's get our money's worth

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwalkx View Post
    Though, there are less melee proffesions in totall compared to ranged if im right; even IF (don't know about that exact myself) sneak attack might be as strong as our CURRENT AS, it would still mean you would have less opponents using 1 of the two current versions against you.
    Even so there is still the problem of MA's and other such professions that switch weapons at will.
    Michaelpete - 220 fixer
    Ipwnts10 - 150 soldier

  4. #64
    Well it won't work anymore for AS (or by not as efficient) duo an execution time on AS, so maybe only for Sneak attack. But i think they'll go over that 1 as well
    The key to happiness is self-delusion. Don't think of yourself as an organic pain collector racing toward oblivion. - Scott Adams

    Programmer n. - An ingenious device that turns caffeine into code

    Jesus paid for our sins - now let's get our money's worth

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by michaelpete View Post
    and sneak attack is just as big a problem as aimed shot
    stop. right. there.

    SA checks ACs, AS does not. SA also have almost 4x the recharge of AS. On top of that it's a melee special, requiring people to you know... actually get close to whoever they are trying to kill. SA isnt even 1/4 the problem AS is.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel8 View Post
    stop. right. there.

    SA checks ACs, AS does not. SA also have almost 4x the recharge of AS. On top of that it's a melee special, requiring people to you know... actually get close to whoever they are trying to kill. SA isnt even 1/4 the problem AS is.
    Agree...
    Mekhdoc 220/27/70 Equip | Mekh 220/28/67 Equip | Shadesch 220/21/70 Equip
    Mekhkeeper 220/22/70 Equip | Roflmao 220/15/50 | Fixyaself 200/23/64 Equip

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by michaelpete View Post
    Even so there is still the problem of MA's and other such professions that switch weapons at will.
    just gotta throw in there that MA's are usually the least of peoples worries in PvP
    Shadwstalker - In before agents are cool again! http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=171841
    Imsoparanoid - gimpeh http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=128791
    Shadwenf - gimpeh http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=133295

  8. #68
    I see a lot of arguing about whether or not doc's are good DPS. This strikes normal people as odd, to say the least. Sorry to say this, but the multi player bit of MMOs necessitates that not all profs should be equal in the same things.

    AO has had 10 years to break this (for instance, crats seem to be PvE top dogs for soloing / teaming, mainly due to the way calms / stuns work), but if you forget this basic lesson, you might as well all be adventurers.

    I'd like to see this moved away from "OMG !11!!1! My prof should have X" to "To differentiate the classes, each prof should have differing roles and differing abilities within the game".

    The problem at the moment is that pure DPS and/or heals and/or stuns / calms is all there is to the PvE game. Am I the only one depressed when two people (or even one, whether they MC it or not) solo albatrum? Or when DB2 is farmed by two toons? Vortex with two? 12 man with.. well.. six (done with a lot less before FC woke up to the issues that got me banned for mentioning last time. Oh, gosh, DoT applied). When I see x6 accounts all run by the same person camping Tara, again, I get depressed. (This is a separate issue, one I'll return to).

    The major problem I see at the moment is that classes are merging into one giant solpher, in the name of 'balance', without thought for multi player dynamics (and yes, I play Clan on RK2, where the very idea of teaming for PvP in BS causes massive Epeen damage).

    Let's look at it differently, in order of supposed "uniqueness":

    Enforcers - HP / Aggro control
    Soldiers - AMS [1.40 of reflect love] / DPS (lol? #5 in PvE atm)
    Shades - DD / soloing (NR8 shades is almost a design feature)
    Engies - TSing (lol) / pets / & somehow top PvE DD
    Crats - Mezzes / calms / auras / pets / ability to solo the game [tm] given at some point / PvP 'LOL wut?" insta-kill stuns at one point, causing us to all reflect on Means being a crat once, since retracted
    Traders - crippling foes / buffing self/team / TSing / famously broken for six years, now dishing it out like a scorned woman on everyone else in PvP
    MA - crit DPS / self healing
    MPs - buffing nanoskills / NP TSing / PBs
    NTs - AoE DPS / uncapped DPS at very endgame (after a trudge through craptastic single DPS for ages)
    Docs - healing
    Keepers - Auras / anti-fear / tanking (*cough*)
    Advies - all of the above

    Then let's look at the discussion here, which basically amounts to:

    "I want my prof to do all things well".


    Tough.

    The real issue as I see it is that within each "area" of game mechanics, certain classes are above all others, in multiple categories. Added to this is the fact that over time certain class skills have become less & less attractive / useful / viable.

    e.g. Pet classes.

    Selfed Weapon DPS [i.e. just from toon] PvE:

    Engy
    Crat
    MP

    Selfed Nano DPS [i.e. just from Toon] PvE:
    Crat
    MP
    Engy

    Pet DPS [i.e. just from pets] PvE:
    Engies
    Crat (? - unsure whether to include charms here)
    MPs

    Self Healing:
    Engies (? not sure if bio-cocoon got nerfed)
    MPs
    Crats

    Other goodies, in order of usefulness PvE:

    Crats - Mezz / Calm / Stuns / Init debuffs / AAD that gives even Fixers Epeen damage
    Engies - Blockers, Auras (snares / blinds), TSing (if you want) and so on
    MPs - Mini-Mezz / mini TSing / Buffing Nano Skills / mini-Reflect/blockers if Turtling / minor debuffs


    Now, you'll probably all argue the toss over those quick estimates. But they're accurate. And as an aggregated balance, you quickly see that in PvE, Crats are the most useful across the board, Engies do the most DPS PvE and MPs don't do either as well.


    Anyhow, let's look at class specific / defining skills that have become less useful:

    Keeper Auras. Back in the day, Keepers were the lovechild class of choice. Untouchable in PvP, Gods in PvE. Then LE came. Their tools stood still, and there was much crying. Fyi, they're still very good, and good soloers: its just that having one profession able to tank five others in BS and laugh at them is not good balance.

    MP Nano Buffing. Back in the day, MPs were loved by all, toons relied on their touch for their endgame casting. Then LE came. Now atroxes can self all nanos and put alpha symbs in, due to their massive ability to whine coupled with everyone rolling them due to MR ganking 'fixing' broken professions in PvP, and there are oodles more nano buffing items, which leaves MPs sad and on the bottom of the pet pile.

    Agents. Back in the day, Agents were the gankers of choice. Twinking nano skills lead to the best of all nanos, deadly docs, enfs and even NTs with BIG GUNS. Badly grainy footage with god aweful techno music after badly grainy footage with bad techno music showed them alpha ganking everyone else, hotswaps dancing like hummingbirds across the screen. Then LE came. And everyone else got bucketloads of AAD, and the old mimicked nanos lost their shine. The gank got turned into an annoyance, followed by the little people being squashed with rolled up newspapers.

    Fixers. Back in the day they whined. Even when unkillable. Unkillable with an (unreliable) AS. But largely unkillable in PvP unless called by an AS-a-thon. Back in the day they whined that their PvP damage was "terrible", even while rooting everyone & never dying. Once in a while one had to meep, but they sure made sure they hit with the full 13k capped QQ damage when they did. Then LE came. Now they whine even more, but since this time most profs have a lot more AR and they can actually be hit (and with losing AS to FA), probably with some justification. But really: Fixer whine has been a constant, even when they were in the top #3 PvP because evades worked. Srsy. This profession has the most QQ attached to it, ever. Its basically a prerequisite of rolling a fixer main that you're addicted to drama QQing.


    And so on.

    Tl;dr

    Some professions are outdated, and need re-working. Most professions are in need of a fresh coat of paint. Not all professions need love.

    Not all professions are created equal (in PvE or PvP): however, all should shine in a particular area (e.g. to the best of my knowledge, MA DPS > everyone else on aliums still?) and each should have a class specific skill that is unique, useful and fun to play. Currently the professions I can think of that do not fulfill this are: Keepers (apart from 12 man, but still actually very good), MPs (pets - urk, nano buffing now useless), MAs (--crit reduction, poorly scaled heals), Agents (since everyone and their mother, and more insultingly, ranged Advies got to play with AS as a "fix" to PvP) and I'll say it: Fixers to a very minor degree (since FC need to stop treating them like mini-soldiers, and get with the program and think outside the box on their role).
    Last edited by Kaitlain; Apr 16th, 2010 at 01:15:13.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by reids View Post
    Bureaucrat
    Charms:

    there are talks about providing a way for bureaucrats to 'capture the essence' of npc's/monsters and spawn them later on in other zones for pvm or pvp!
    um will those captured mobs be able to cast all the nanos or attacks the real mobs do?
    if so wtb lvl 290 alien hacker with virral nukes

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by MindforceDNW View Post
    um will those captured mobs be able to cast all the nanos or attacks the real mobs do?
    if so wtb lvl 290 alien hacker with virral nukes

    Well unless they change what can/cant be charmed...hackers arent charnable, plus im not sure if procs continue with charmed mobs.
    This was what I was wearing. Tell me I asked for it

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times...)
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    the day our pets last forever, like yours, is the day your reqs will be lowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    To be fair, you are lucky the mods are as forgiving as they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    your an idiot



  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlain View Post
    ... stuff...
    Well, its sad to say, but you are right. Since very begining in this game, I see lots of whine posts, and it starts to get bigger issue then game itself. Of course, balance is needed but balance class-wise, not Equalling everyone to same functions.

    I will say something about low LVL pvp. I did miltiple twinks, for various tests. During those tests, I discovered, that in some cases, at tl2 there is somewhat balance and it just need tweaks. Players twink, that NT should be same in /duel /BS /nw, but its not so - Enf and NT are diff and should be different, based on toolset. FC tends to change things in game based on QQ of players - and they change things w/o testing it ir (what I belive) knowing what are they doing. This way various TL's got flatted to 2-3 proffesions, instead spreding to all aviable ingame.

    Problem relys on there is less whine of lowbie PVP Engis/NTs/Crats, so FC thinks this needs no change - and its false assumption, cause no posts means, that there is no players doing such twinks. This way, introduced nanos/weapons impacts Enfs/Docs/Agents/Traders leaving other classes w/o any chances of advance or gearing up better things/nanos.

    Some examples:

    - Neleb battle Rod
    OP weapon with huge nano drain, made for soldiers? Hell no - its for melee class, for docters, its for traders but not for Soldiers. Instead, there is Neutrino with crappy dmg and proc that affects only... soldiers? In way far beyond any usefullness.
    - LE nanos
    Trader got Shutdownskill, as an nice addition to current tollset, Enf has Fear, and what NT or Eng got? Nada, nothing. Zip.
    - Impwise imbalance
    There is huge ammount of symbs for Crat/Doc/NT/ that doesnt exists in game. Combineing this with requirements for dedicated toolset leaves any twink w/o any chance to twinka actually in any skils. Engineers has use of Ts/MC in same slots as Pistol. Actually, Pistol classes are hurt most in this case, cause it prevents them from useing: Kizzers, TS/MC clusters, symbs (if they would be in-game)
    - Nano weapon stats:
    Engi as a only one proffesion ingame has z0 buffs for weapon/pets on low lvl. This leads this class to use for worse weapons twink-wise and/or worse pet. If MP can get ql 170 pet (at lvl 49)w/o problem, engi will get ql 130 at top, but pet itselff is not a problem - problem is an engi that has no HP, no blockers, no AC's, no dmg or heals.

    There is lot of things that need to be tweaked - not balanced. Twekaed in right way, so those useless classes will gain attention from players if they have something to offer.

    Myself, i did NT for fun - its quite good char, nice twinked and as a CC works well. Problem is, that NTs at this lvl should get acces to 1 thing: Cyberdeck from lvl 25 as a Weapon BUff item, that means +25 skills. And things would be fixed. Good played character can be devastating in BS, when it comes to mutliple targets.

    But, if you build Crat, Shade, Keeper, Engineer you will find yourself in ditch, big hole w/o light at the end of tunnel - and this highlits, how FC listens to players - cause at further lvl, they arent this bad as on tl2/3/4
    I like PvP
    TL6: Tereshkova 200 eng / Patrollerz 200 sol / Tankietka 200 NM enf / Pielegniarka 200 Tank Doc / Oleska 200 SOLIKeep
    TL5: Miazga 150 sol / Piknababa 150 NM Enf 2he / Gigantika 150 NM Enf / Malutki 150 Enf Trox WIP
    TL4: Ladyrazor 112 fixer (retired) / Shha 100 NT / Cycolina lvl 100 NM Enforcer
    + Tons of other chars...
    I make weird TwInkz!
    Signature updated: 29/06/2016

  12. #72
    I will really appreciate if this thread have been made by FC with periodical update about game balance.
    -o--oOo--o--
    Yama*007
    -o--oOo--o--

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by reids View Post
    Bureaucrat
    Charms:

    there are talks about providing a way for bureaucrats to 'capture the essence' of npc's/monsters and spawn them later on in other zones for pvm or pvp!
    Why give an already overpowered prof in pvm something like this, while it would be completely in the spirit of a very weak prof like MP to have this. Capturing the essence of something is totally MP like. I don't understand why they'd give it to crats, they need more DD?

    Atleast MPs would have use for this and they actually need something to help them pvm wise and it actually fits in the spirit of the prof.
    Nesjamag 220/30/70 Shade
    Nesjamah 220/23/69 MP
    Nesjahero 150/16/42 Keeper
    Nesjasol 220/26/58 Soldier
    Nesjawild 150/19/35 Advy

    The Asylum

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Nesja View Post
    Why give an already overpowered prof in pvm something like this, while it would be completely in the spirit of a very weak prof like MP to have this. Capturing the essence of something is totally MP like. I don't understand why they'd give it to crats, they need more DD?
    It's basically a charmed monster you can take with you, not anything completely new. Recall that you can't use charms at the same time as Carlo. My crat isn't quite there yet, but from what I've seen most 220 crats prefer Carlo, so presumably it's somehow better than charms.

  15. #75
    But why not give MP this?
    MP could actually use something like this and it fits in the spirit of the prof to capture the essence of something and take it with you.

    MP already has so little and crats so much. It would help if MP could get some mob somewhere with millions of hp and good dd. We might actually get a team invite than.

    The way it is now crats are almost a necesity for endgame content and few teams want to raid without a crat. With MP's it's like the opposit, most teams don't want one and favour other profs. Some big fix is needed there.
    Nesjamag 220/30/70 Shade
    Nesjamah 220/23/69 MP
    Nesjahero 150/16/42 Keeper
    Nesjasol 220/26/58 Soldier
    Nesjawild 150/19/35 Advy

    The Asylum

  16. #76
    I see what Minova means, giving doctor a cyberdeck from lvl 50 will make aprox 97% choose that over twinking on weapons for more damage any day of the week.

    Diversity is good but if you make one direction way easier to go than the other and they lead to the same goal (220) most will go the easy way, further making the less viable route even more hard to get to.

    In doc thread I noticed that doctors will get a revamp on healing during lvling. Which is GOOD! Lifegiving Elixir is too low as it is now to use for outhealing heckler damage, even with ubt going as a lvl 100. Can't remember if I even got ubt to land back then but I do remember having trouble keeping tank alive with LE and CH would only make me go splat. So new workup on healing throughout lvls is very good!

    Very good thread Reids, thanks alot

    EDIT: Brainfart, didn't see there was 5 pages already...
    Last edited by Medicwarden; May 27th, 2010 at 13:46:32.
    RIP Thebun, you will be missed!

    Characters ingame:

    Thekicker, 220/23 MA http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=126010 (roughly final setup)
    Medicwarden, 220/27 http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=157683 current equip

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Nesja View Post
    But why not give MP this?
    MP could actually use something like this and it fits in the spirit of the prof to capture the essence of something and take it with you.

    MP already has so little and crats so much. It would help if MP could get some mob somewhere with millions of hp and good dd. We might actually get a team invite than.

    The way it is now crats are almost a necesity for endgame content and few teams want to raid without a crat. With MP's it's like the opposit, most teams don't want one and favour other profs. Some big fix is needed there.
    Indeed, plus, capturing essence would be more of our match than their "speeches"
    ᖧ-Flynicist-ᖨ
    Grenade

    Rushing where angels fear to tread.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlain View Post
    big post, read it above
    Thank you for this post, it could not be more true.

  19. #79
    Keep in mind they said a lot of stuff is going to be revamped, rebalanced... this doesn't exclude mp's. So hold your horses till they give more information about the global idea.

    About the crat part: Crats have always had an ability to control mobs, they are the maniputalive type of profession. Which makes the capture essence idea fit them imo.
    The key to happiness is self-delusion. Don't think of yourself as an organic pain collector racing toward oblivion. - Scott Adams

    Programmer n. - An ingenious device that turns caffeine into code

    Jesus paid for our sins - now let's get our money's worth

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwalkx View Post
    Keep in mind they said a lot of stuff is going to be revamped, rebalanced... this doesn't exclude mp's.
    Yeah, true that. They are reworking our only working defense into something even more useless.

    About the crat part: Crats have always had an ability to control mobs, they are the maniputalive type of profession. Which makes the capture essence idea fit them imo.
    Not sure where you see "capture essence" fitting there though.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

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