The Problem with PvP Level Balance

[Flyingengi]

Here is a little chart I made to describe how power is gained as you level in AO through IP, equipment, and perks:

Chart

That is what is wrong with the pvp level ranges, not the level ranges themselves.

[Klod9003]

Here is a little chart I made to describe how power is gained as you level in AO through IP, equipment, and perks:

Chart

That is what is wrong with the pvp level ranges, not the level ranges themselves.

Title 7 toons should be drastically nerfed. Agreed.

[Phylicity]

That graph is a bit basic but i guess that was done on purpose to try and prove a point. TL7 does get a lot of power in comparison to TL6, at the same twinked TL5 characters tend to be more powerful than average TL6 toons. A couple of extra SL perks isnt going to swing things, its the access and the ability to equip certain things ingame that adds to how powerful a character is.

Look at TL3, keepers with a sword of the illuminated, enforcers with chiropetas and howlets, soldiers with jame, agents with SPS. I think how powerful a character is all depends on WHEN they can have access to certain things. TL7 used to be all about how many perks you had in comparison to someone else and where they were spent assuming you both had an average equipment, now the game is flooded with level locked TL7 items that have meant the gap between TL7 and TL6 is hillariously big.

[Questra]

95% of all statistics are designed to sell toothpaste.

The other 5% are designed to point out that fact.

If expansions like SL only gave people 20 more levels identical to the 200 previous ones, noone would buy it. Everyone would be a froob with 100 less skills and uglier armour.

[Flyingengi]

If expansions like SL only gave people 20 more levels identical to the 200 previous ones, noone would buy it. Everyone would be a froob with 100 less skills and uglier armour.

The extra IP is just a VERY small part of the problem.

The best, and most dangerous perks for almost all professions are gained between lvl203-207 (including MR).

DB nanos at 215. (2 to 3 times more powerful than the nanos before them)

Xan weapons available at 201.


Some problems:

-At tl5-6, you get IP yet there is nothing to spend it on because it is all maxed.

-As soon as you can cast the best rk buffs (tl4/5 and even tl3 for some) you don't get any new nanos until 215 for most professions. Reflects/pets/doc heals are a few that actually do get a tad better. That's 75-125 levels of using the same nanos, half of the game!

-Did I mention everything is capped?



From tl1-5, the variance in levels is somewhat linear. A few bumps here and there, but nothing that massive. From tl5-6, there is barely any growth at all in skill. This isn't just viable in pvp but also in pvm. Most toons are the same at 160 as they are at 200. As soon as they hit tl7, it's like they take steroids and become massively powerful.

[Ceenah2]

If expansions like SL only gave people 20 more levels identical to the 200 previous ones, noone would buy it. Everyone would be a froob with 100 less skills and uglier armour.

If expansions like SL will give people 100 more levels identical to the 200 previous ones, people would buy it. People would still be a sloob with 1000 more skills and nicer looking armor.


Real question why only 20 level from the first place, not 100

[Grind42]

I think the massive jump is from 215+ where you get access to Zod items, beast equip, Dread nano's & armor.

Sub 215 characters are obviously more powerfull but not overly so compared to TL6's.

Old Endgame equip is so outdated its not funny, look at returning toons who worked hard for full Tier & when they logon after 2-3 years away are so totally gimp its a joke.

With the recent expantions toons have become alot more powerfull, realising that you also have 70 lvl's of research, so in essence you can be 220/30/70 = 320, 120 levels over froob...

What do you expect to happen with a game as old as AO, FC is however bringing in different options for lower TL's mostly armor however.... are you requesting more Hud/Util & weapon options?

Should FC focus on content for unpaid players, answer is NO
Ofab has provided different weapon & armor configs + some uber twinking HUDS for all TL's

I dont understand what the OP is on about.... In every game the highest lvl toon is going to be the most hardcore & in AO its 215+



A 190 twinked toon would easily **** a 200-210 Untwinked toon, ofc dependant on prof but in most cases the Twinked toon will be far supperior to the gimp.
Basis being twink up & lvl + get expantions.

[Sterva]

the problem with graphs: they look more impressive depending on how you set the scale.

[Castaras]

the problem with graphs: they look more impressive depending on how you set the scale.

And that is the point I was about to make. 1 shadow level is about equivilant to 5 RK levels. PvP level ranges should be scaled accordingly.

[Armus]

Tl7's got a TON of new weapons, armor, huds, utils, ncu, nanos, new perks, le levels etc etc since the last time the level ranges were adjusted.

There is a vast difference in attack rating, damage, hp, heals and defence if you compare say a 207 from today and a 207 from 2005 when the current level range was implemented. It's simply a whole new game for tl7's while tl5's didn't get much.

The difference now between a fully decked out 210 vs a 170 is probably bigger than a 220 was vs a 150 back then. The new weapsons, LE levels, alba huds etc are just THAT powerful.

So, in the interest of balance a new adjustment to the level ranges is not only reasonable. It's long overdue.

To those who oppose this (if there are any o fyou guys left) I just want to say: why?

We could gain so much fun if we got the tl7's out of the tl5's hair @ NW.

ps. I'm fully aware that there is no perfect solution, but having say.. 204 be the highest level that could hit a 174 would make a MAJOR diff.

Shanx!

[Sterva]

If there isn't a huge difference between a 150 and a 164, or a 164 and a 174, why not just twink at a level that tl7 can't attack you at? I have a 164 twink and can honestly say, tl7 have never ruined my fun.

It'd be nice if tl7 couldn't mess with tl5 at all, but you can certainly twink at a lower level than 174 and avoid most of it pretty effectively.

[Chrys]

207 in full beta symbs is possible, and not actually that hard to do, along with ql300 armor. LE 70+AI30 are also possible at 200, don't forget, never mind the pre-existing problem of 5 times the IP for every shadow level. The gulf is simply ridiculous, and it just makes for encounters that aren't fun.

[Sterva]

Right, and a logical person would realize that, and look at 150 or 164 and think hmm, a 207 can't attack me at those levels, so that's where I'm gonna twink.

[Lupusceleri]

Right, and a logical person would realize that, and look at 150 or 164 and think hmm, a 207 can't attack me at those levels, so that's where I'm gonna twink.

The logical persons have already twinked at 165 before these retarded 207 twinks started popping up.

There was - at the time - NO way to predict it. Along with that; your 164 is a Trader. It doesn't rely on alphaing, it doesn't have utterly essential components of their toolset locked to 165 or even 170.

[Sterva]

The logical persons have already twinked at 165 before these retarded 207 twinks started popping up.

There was - at the time - NO way to predict it. Along with that; your 164 is a Trader. It doesn't rely on alphaing, it doesn't have utterly essential components of their toolset locked to 165 or even 170.

Let's see if I have my history right, shall we?

Once upon a time, the pvp level range was 150-220. At this time, everyone twinked at 149 or maxed conceal and took their chances with 220s. Then, the scale was changed, and a few twinks cautiously leveld up a bit for a couple of extra perks and some extra IP. Along came the first 207 MR agent!

All of the people who weren't clever enough to realize that leveling to 165 meant that 207's could attack you had pretty much no excuse at this point, since little trox agents were running around everywhere alphaing everything in sight. (And really, most active pvpers realized it as soon as they saw the patch notes, I remember chatting about it with the SBI twinks in tranq GC.)

I started leveling my trox agent 207 twink in mid 2005, well after several other people thought of it first and had already produced accomplished 207 twinks.

In other words, there was a tiny window of people shortly after the levels changed who might have legitimately not realized that leveling past 164 opened you up to a lot of higher level fire--but that was well over five years ago.

Anyone who's made a twink in the last several years has no excuse. If you level past 164, you are going to have to deal with high level twinks. You don't even have to be especially clever to realize it.

As for my twink being a trader who doesn't need to level past 164--yeah. I chose a profession that does well at a level I wanted to twink at, imagine that.

Since apparently, some are out of the loop, here's a handy guide for making twinks:

1. Choose a level. /tell helpbot lvl <level> and see if the pvp range matches up with what you want to be fighting.

2. Choose a profession. If you don't already know, ask around and see how that profession does at the level you've already decided on. If it doesn't do well enough, pick a different one.

If you get picked on by twinks a bit higher level than you, keep in mind that they have to deal with higher level twinks picking on them.

[Sterva]

PS, it's not really related, but I killed a 220 MA (Aussieborn) on my lvl 154 leveling agent in a fair and square fight before the pvp range changed.

All hail the power of aimed shot and kiting.

[Gatester]

So why are professionals arguing that 175 to early 200ish players should be unable to pvp with people in a balanced skill range? I would pay hard cash for a viable argument that a 220 should be allowed to gank a 175 at a tower war besides the "he should know better than trying to play a part of AO". It is almost like being a clan that was killed by a Unicorn in Borealis because an omni trained it, and then blaming the clan for dieing. You should know that omni can train you against the EULA in a neutral city

[Shrubberyman]

My bet is that one professional has a 207 twink that he doesn't want to put in the trashcan while the other hasn't. Yea, sometimes arguements just boil down to that.

PS : I'm with Lupu on this one. Being able to take advantage of mechanics doesn't make the said mechanics less retarded.

[Lupusceleri]

Things must've been different on RK1 than RK2 then.

Because the first 207 twink (as in not random levelling toon that fails so bad a 170 can kill it) was Jallarsnabb IIRC, active around the end of 2007.

[Klod9003]

Right, and a logical person would realize that, and look at 150 or 164 and think hmm, a 207 can't attack me at those levels, so that's where I'm gonna twink.

Yeah, aha, sure.

Because using nanos like this is practically the same as using this, for some professions, in such cases. Not everyone is a trader that can use its powerfull toolset starting from tl3.