The Problem with PvP Level Balance

[Sterva]

So why are professionals arguing that 175 to early 200ish players should be unable to pvp with people in a balanced skill range

I don't see any professionals arguing that. I said that you don't have to be particularly clever to figure out which professions and at what levels do well as a pvp twinks, which is not the same as saying that 175-200 players shouldn't be able to pvp.

Things must've been different on RK1 than RK2 then.

Because the first 207 twink (as in not random levelling toon that fails so bad a 170 can kill it) was Jallarsnabb IIRC, active around the end of 2007.

Well, yeah, RK1 has always been way ahead of RK2 in terms of pvp. /pretentious grin

My bet is that one professional has a 207 twink that he doesn't want to put in the trashcan while the other hasn't.

Nah, I have a main and a 164 trader twink and no time to play anything else (and if I had more time, I don't have a twink killer 207 twink either).

Yeah, aha, sure.

Because using nanos like this is practically the same as using this, for some professions, in such cases. Not everyone is a trader that can use its powerfull toolset starting from tl3.

What you are complaining about is different from what the OP is complaining about. He's saying it's not balanced for anyone to have to fight players of a much higher level range. You're saying your prof sucks compared to other profs at the same level. Something which I really don't care to comment on at all!

[Chereee]

What's more dangerous? A 207 attacking a 165 or a 220 attacking a 207?

[Juzzif]

What's more dangerous? A 207 attacking a 165 or a 220 attacking a 207?

Good point Either way, look at alot of other MMO's where end game players can at any time attack level 1 players... I think AO pvp ranges are 101% fine love them as they are right now... Then again I don't have a twink right now, maybe would suffice to make it so that 200+ can only attack 200 +

[RedWatr]

It doesn't matter what argument any of you have, the simple truth is that it's breaking a very popular and fun part of the game. You can't disagree with facts.

my last 3 attempts at getting anything tower related happening at tl5 were met by 2 to 3 205-214 on all occasions besides the first. And might I add, that it was just myself, a 170 adv, and 150 fixer. (even the clan tl5 that tried to get there b4 the tl7's were pissed) it's just not worth bothering with.

my tl5 tower toon is now confined to BS and ganking, o and by ganking, I mean ganking and gtfo b4 some unhappy clan logs his (or his org m8's) tl7 because he lost a fair fight against me on even ground. dying isn't the bad part, it's the tells of how much of a gimp I am to die to someone 40+ levels above me with Xan weps, go figure ><

it's even funnier when the 205+ bring 220 pockets, something people tend to forget about.

not to mention that RK3 brought MORE clan tl7 that are setup to kill tl5's...yay.

[epolass]

Just keep the current pvp ranges, but add a TL restriction, so you can only fight the people in your TL and previous one.

Let's say you're 165.

the current range applies : PvP 131-208
the TL restriction applies : 100-189
Your pvp range = 131-189
It's 30 less and more than you. Sounds fair.

Let's say you made a BS twink : 174
the current range applies : PvP 138-219
the TL restriction applies : 100-189
Your pvp range = 138-189

If you're 220, then you can attack 190+ chars.

If you're 60 :
the current range applies : PvP 47-76
the TL restriction applies : 15-100
Your pvp range = 47-76
No change ! good, it's balanced at this TL.

You're scarred about you're 150 twink ?
the current range applies : PvP 119-189
the TL restriction applies : 100-189
Your pvp range = 119-189
No changes either !!

Then why don't we all make 149 and 189 twinks ?
for a 149 :
the current range applies : PvP 118-188
the TL restriction applies : 50-149
Your pvp range = 118-149
Zomg !!

Except that in the previous simulation a 150 can fight your 149.
We just need to rewrite all the ranges using the 2 ranges (current and TL).
In that case your 149 is still attackable by a 188. And you 189 is attackable by a 204, not higher.
Your 174 is killable by a 204, yes, but currently you have 215+ coming to beat you.

This does not save TL6, but all TL5.

So, to sum up, FC should rewrite all the PVP ranges using the following rule :

Apply the current ranges, and restrict this range to the char's TL and the previous TL.

[Flyingengi]

Let's get back on topic guys. This has nothing to do with changing PvP level ranges.

This thread is about changing how new items and benefits as well as how IP and perks are distributed. This thread is about how there should be an even distribution of power from lvl 1 to 220.

[Klod9003]

What you are complaining about is different from what the OP is complaining about. He's saying it's not balanced for anyone to have to fight players of a much higher level range. You're saying your prof sucks compared to other profs at the same level. Something which I really don't care to comment on at all!

I'm complaining about your silly "what should a logical person do" rhetoric.

[epolass]

Let's get back on topic guys. This has nothing to do with changing PvP level ranges.

Of course it has.
There's a problem, and several ways to fix it.
If you want an even distribution of power over the whole leveling journey, it will :

- need a rework on all the levels.
- boosts froobs vs paying characters
- make PvM easier

Changing the pvp ranges is way more fast, and easy.

[Gatester]

Let's get back on topic guys. This has nothing to do with changing PvP level ranges.

This thread is about changing how new items and benefits as well as how IP and perks are distributed. This thread is about how there should be an even distribution of power from lvl 1 to 220.

Its more profession based than anything, so not all professions develop equally. The only way to adjust things so that the balance is equivalent at any level would be to level lock most items and nanos, and then change the leveling to a max level of 300 instead of 220.

FC is balancing nanos and abilities, so I think the only thing that will be needed in the future is a slight pvp range adjustment. I would be happy if a 190 could pvp with 209 and lower.

[Flyingengi]

- make PvM easier

No, it would make it more universal and much smoother. The reason most leach at high tl5 is because they don't. Have the power to do it on their own.

[Chrys]

What's more dangerous? A 207 attacking a 165 or a 220 attacking a 207?

Depends on the prof/breed ofc. Your 207 never scared me, but I never ever had the alpha power on my MP to kill it faster than you could meep even when I could easily kill 220 agents all the time. A 220 shade catching you, however, is gonna be stunstunsplat.

It's interesting all the people defending this idea desperately have 207 twinks. Anyone who looks at the gulfs marginally objectively will be quite able to point out that this is a bad situation that cuts off PVP options for a wide expanse of players. As already mentioned, when 150 was able to PVP 220s, just because that was the rules at the time didn't make it a good idea, it just meant that was what was the rules. TL5 is a very popular PVP range, and one of the most fun precisely because it is much closer to oldschool RK wars, and given the limitations on breedcap/IPcap/etc. of that level range, it should simply be unable to be ganked by two TLs higher than it. FC should do more to promote things that players have naturally gravitated to because the players found them fun (and not lame loser crap like creating a tl7-amg-i-need-70LE-levels-and-30AI-levels-and-beta-symbs to kill stuffz 40 levels below me).

[Armus]

If there isn't a huge difference between a 150 and a 164, or a 164 and a 174, why not just twink at a level that tl7 can't attack you at? I have a 164 twink and can honestly say, tl7 have never ruined my fun. .

Except only a handfull or less classes don't need 165-170 to work well.
Trader being one of those that don't really need it. But take nt and mp.
They have level locked nanos that they just plain suck without.
Agent is even more dependant on perks that are available at 170.

And we can't all roll traders can we? Although that's about to happen anyway due to the immense toolset that traders get early on.

It'd be nice if tl7 couldn't mess with tl5 at all, but you can certainly twink at a lower level than 174 and avoid most of it pretty effectively.

Clan used to argue against it when omni dominated tl7.
Now that clan owns tl7 omnis are complaining just the same.
Both sides have experienced how lame tl7+pocket vs tl5's can be.

So why argue against a change that would improve the fun for hundreds if not thousands of players?

As for the reason of ppl rolling 174's. There most common one being the leveling toon which is parked at 174 because ppl want to farm VP.
These ppl may join a tower war but they'll go "fuk it" after having been killed once by a 215+.

That's 75% of the tl5 toons gone right there. It doesn't matter whos "fault" it is. It's just how it is. Actually if anyone is at fault it's fc for setting the bs ranges the way they did.

Then there are the ppl who cares mostly about duels. They'd like to join tower wars on their super twinked 174's but they can't because any leveling 215+ will insta own a 174 today.

That's 80% of the tl5's gone.


If we want tl5 towers to happen more than once or twice a week this needs to be changed. End of story.

[Gatester]

I would like to point out that professions like MPs, Engineers, Keepers, Shades, Crats would all be much more viable if they could level to 175-195 and avoid TL7 dominance. Professions shouldn't have to wait until 220 endgame to pvp effectively, or even not pvp effectively there at all.

[Chereee]

A 220 shade catching you, however, is gonna be stunstunsplat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PpYXn6-k0A#t=0m45s

Depends on the prof/breed ofc. Your 207 never scared me, but I never ever had the alpha power on my MP to kill it faster than you could meep even when I could easily kill 220 agents all the time.

What does meeping have to do with it? I've been playing my froob 184 fix recently, I've meeped from 220s with my ubar 3k hp more often than I've died. From your post, it seems like 207s don't pose much, if any threat to you. Does that mean 207s are more vulnerable in the food chain than 165s are in the large scope of things? Does that mean 207s are in the same boat as 165s? Can you offer your insight on the threats that 165s and 207s face and how they compare to eachother?

It's interesting all the people defending this idea desperately have 207 twinks. Anyone who looks at the gulfs marginally objectively will be quite able to point out that this is a bad situation that cuts off PVP options for a wide expanse of players. As already mentioned, when 150 was able to PVP 220s, just because that was the rules at the time didn't make it a good idea, it just meant that was what was the rules. TL5 is a very popular PVP range, and one of the most fun precisely because it is much closer to oldschool RK wars, and given the limitations on breedcap/IPcap/etc. of that level range, it should simply be unable to be ganked by two TLs higher than it. FC should do more to promote things that players have naturally gravitated to because the players found them fun (and not lame loser crap like creating a tl7-amg-i-need-70LE-levels-and-30AI-levels-and-beta-symbs to kill stuffz 40 levels below me).

I have nothing at stake here. I'm just defending a fun gameplay I experienced just as you wish to do.

lvl 149 was great for those who twinked there because it was like a fake 220. There was no bigger fish. No one dared.

Now it's a different story. Most level ranges are working, at least from lvl 10-170 and 207-220. They're working because people choose to pvp at those levels. If you want to convince me of broken level ranges, don't level to those ranges. When you do, you make it viable. You get the edge and accept the risk. If you thoroughly believe the edge you gain by going 165-170 isn't worth being attacked by tl7, then stay at 164. Maybe then I'll be convinced.

[Armus]

If you thoroughly believe the edge you gain by going 165-170 isn't worth being attacked by tl7, then stay at 164. Maybe then I'll be convinced.

Okay so if say.. you happen to roll mp or nt then you're confined to a pet with 900 AR and a nuke that is level from 125.

Fun eh?

We've explained why ppl choose to level beyond 164 a thousand times already. Why not try to meet those arguments instead of presenting the opinion that ppl who overleveled are SOL. It's been done about a thousand times already.

[Chereee]

Okay so if say.. you happen to roll mp or nt then you're confined to a pet with 900 AR and a nuke that is level from 125.

Fun eh?

This isn't an argument for lvl ranges, but an argument for nt/mp balance at 164.

We've explained why ppl choose to level beyond 164 a thousand times already. Why not try to meet those arguments instead of presenting the opinion that ppl who overleveled are SOL. It's been done about a thousand times already.

Meeting those arguments are as simple as "you knew what you were getting into, it's your choice, take responsibility, don't like it? don't do it. 164 not viable? go lower." A profession not being viable at 164 can be proved by no one rolling the profession at that lvl. I don't doubt the situation is true for 164 nts, but I do question anyone saying 165 nts aren't viable while I've seen so many in my days.

A toon going to 207 gets opened up to 220s, but it's worth it. They get to attack those who go to 165-170.
A toon going to 165-170 gets opened up to 207s, but it's worth it to get that extra perk or nano.
If it's not worth it, they wouldn't do it.

You'll get no sympathy from me if you make the choice to level then cry.

Just to restate this point, I see no/few twinks between 171 and 206. That makes it a broken level range imo. Not 165-170. And I agree that select professions are not viable at lvl 164, just as select professions are not viable at lvl 20. It's a power balancing issue between professions, not a level range issue.

[epolass]

PVP ranges are too wide after TL4.
just like team ranges.

Reduce PVP ranges will open new pvp ranges.

Reduce team ranges will reduce powerleveling. (Hai i'm 168, can I do an inf mish with your 220 and skip half of SL ?)

[Chrys]

Yeah, I've no problems in principle with my 90 agent being attacked by 114s, or my 60 sold being attacked by 74-76s. This is about what is a reasonable gulf between PVP ranges. Is a level one being ganked by a 21 a reasonable gulf? Ofc not, and rightfully so. Same with a 49 being attacked by a 76, that would be retarded, or a 86 ganked by a 126. And in this case, given the huge amounts of TL7 content added in recent years, it is now only arguable by those with vested interests that the gulf between 165 and 207 is acceptable. As pointed out, Jallarsnabb made a fine living with 207-ganks-165s back in 2007 when PVP ranges first changed (and before AIXP was dead easy to farm, and before the full LE/Xan content and global research etc was completed), and the gap has only widened since then. The gap between 220 and 207, on the other hand, has not appreciably widened in the same time because stuff that was theoretically doable but way to mindnumbing to attain (such as AI30 or 270 symbs or LE 70) is now easily doable on a 207.

[Dopecat]

Bumping this thread for sake of having more tl5 wars.

Besides that, occasional tl5 vs some tl7 toon in borealis is fun, but its NW where its currently cutting on the amount of action. So id imagine even the people who rolled their toon 160-164 for sake of NW, would welcome more actual tl5 NW, rather than watch majority of the other side being demolished by 207 and 210 toons pocketed by zerg of 220s. Such wars dont really offer any challenge from tl5 point of view at all, just matter of who managed to call in more tl7 support.

[Scottik]

Ok, I made another charts for you.

Chart #1:
Shows upper and lower bounds of pvp ranges for each levels while 1 shadow level=1 regular level (>=200). That's probably a theory FC based their opinions on when they were making PvP ranges.
Looks pretty fine, right?

Not so fast Forest, not so fast!

The problem is that 1 shadow level is not equal to 1 regular level. 1 shadow level is equal to 5 regular levels based on IPs and to 10 regular levels based on perks! Not to mention the access to tons of new armor, weapons, symbiants and most of all to LE70/AI30.

Chart #2:
So this is how it looks like when I readjust input values based on IPs to demonstrate huge gap between shadow levels and regular levels (shadow level 220 is represented by regular level 300 in this chart). I hope it's clear enough (even for Cheree)

Is there a solution? Either readjust ranges where 1 shadow level = 5 regular levels or simply do TL lock (=you couldn't attack/team anyone 2 TLs below nor above of your own TL) as it's been suggested many times.