The Problem with PvP Level Balance

[Chereee]

Just keep the current pvp ranges, but add a TL restriction, so you can only fight the people in your TL and previous one.

This is an example of a formula that is missing the mark.

So you make being 171-189 viable. However, you're breaking the 207-214 range, and not rectifying the 190-206 range. If a lvl 201 can only attack down to 190 and a 220 can only attack down to 190, then what's the point of being 201? No one will twink at TL7 other than 220. And what about 190s? They're not going to stand getting ganked by 220s. They don't now, so why would they if their pvp range remains relatively the same?

With 220s keeping TL6 silent, TL5 will have no one to fear. That's what I call selfish. Making a suggestion to break another level range to create this TL5 utopia without fear of higher level twinks. No one gets that, no one but 220s.

[Chereee]

This is irrelevant, cheree: If a prof is weak at 165, but has significantly more power at 170, (keeper, agent, NT, particularly) doesn't mean they don't care about the 207's that might gank them. It means that that is an INCONSISTENCY of the game mechanic that they HAVE to deal with.

They don't HAVE to deal with anything. They ACCEPT it.

The benefits of rolling a 170 instead of a 165 are far greater for 99% of play, whereas, if people *only* rolled in preparation for the odd attack by a high level player the ENTIRE population of "twinks" would be highly fragmented or, if you take your argument to an extreme, they would ALL be level 1, since, at that level there is the littlest disparity between the highest level of PVP and their level with which to play, which, clearly isn't the case, so, yes, people, ALL people, will never roll toons by this principle.

My argument is that if active twinks exist at a particular level, they're not a broken pvp range. How do you take that to the extreme? Lots of people accept risk for reward.

We have to make do, dealing with 207'sis one of them, but why bother with a toon which will be at 60% of it's capacity in 99% of the encounters you face, instead of making a toon with is 100% of it's potential for 99% of the encounters you face? obviously the latter is the superior option.

You CHOOSE to make due. And it makes sense, if all you have to fear is 1% of encounters, seems perfectly balanced that TL5 gets wtfpwned by TL7 those 1/100 encounters. Being 100% of your potential is impossible due to -ranges- and imbalance between professions. But let's just say it is. It's at the cost of destroying 207-214 pvp. Why destroy a range that I find fun? I'm sure you don't like getting ganked by 207s, just as I don't like getting ganked by 220s. Take away my targets and there's no point for me to play as a TL7 twink. What makes your fun > mine?

[epolass]

Take away my targets and there's no point for me to play as a TL7 twink.

Well, there's no much point having a TL7 twink. TL7 is end game. If you want to pvp at end game? then get to 220. 207 toons are not twinks, they are twink killers. That makes a huge difference.

If your fun is to kill toons that are way to weak for you while being pocketed by 220's, then yes, our fun > your fun.

Pvp ranges need rewrite. The rules I mentioned were just a quick fix to see what's possible to do.

We could also just reduce the range after 200. like for 201, it could be 185-207, for a 202 187-208, I don't know about the figures really...

What I know is 1 RK lvl != 1 SL lvl, thus range should be tighter at 200+.

[Tanana]

I think the whole point to PvP Level balancing is to attempt where possible to try and limit scaling.

If a group of TL5's start an offensive it would be great if defenders that appear would be..TL5. Because of the PvP ranges people have decided to take advantage of TL7 twinks who can dramatically swing the outcome of a TL5 tower fight. These so called killers usually turn up with TL7 healing support too which results in an impossible time for the TL5's that can actually attack them.

The only answer for the TL5's is to call in TL7 support, or bring it with them in the first place. This happens at the moment. Clan on RK1 have no problem finding TL7 support to protect those in level of TL7 'Twink Killers'. It's the main reason why I feel no fear bringing 170 and 174 alts to Tower Wars.

Some of the best fun I have had doing NW was actually a time when Eq lost. Both TL5 sides we're evenly balanced and we wiped omni a few times before being wiped ourselves. NO TL7's involved and good fun for all.

As stated many, many times limiting TL's ranges to include the TL restriction rule as in Noobius idea would be the best thing for TL5 NW in particular. I think people need to get past the 'you leveled to far..deal with it' attitude and try and see that the people suggesting this have no problem with doing well in NW as it stands, they just want changes to improve the fun factor.

[bitnykk]

calculation rules at the moment are around these percents ; Team range: 72,5% - 138% / Pvp range : 80% - 125%
that was may be correct long time ago when SL released but since a lot of new content, last being LoX, 200+ grown a lot stronger than TL5/6.

so i propose a controlled gradient for Pvp range (Team remains like now) going to 86% - 116% @ 220, to same than now @ 158
that roughly give us something like this (rounded & corrected values) :

220: 190-220
219: 189-220
...
215: 186-220
214: 185-220
...
208: 175-220
207: 174-220
...
201: 160-220
200: 159-220
...
190: 153-220
189: 152-219
...
180: 146-212
...
175: 140-208
174: 139-207
...
160: 127-201
159: 126-200
158: 125-199 & lower remains the exact same.

[Chrys]

No one needs to convince me of the difference in power between a 165 and a 207. You need to convince yourselves. As long as people are saying one thing on the forums and doing another thing in game, you'll keep losing credibility with me.

You have no credibility to begin with. All your posts can be summed up as:

plz no nerf mai 207s gankrange or ima QQ moar!!1 !

[Ciex]

Only tl5 agents „need” to be lvl 170. Other professions don’t. You can get ql 230 symbiants without lvl 170 enchance dna perks. You can even get this fancy SE ofab helmet on your keeper or enf before lvl 170 as I was over 10 points stamina requirements when I got it on at lvl 170 so loosing 5 points from enchance dna wouldn’t doom me, especially that I didn’t use max ql contracts.

But I have to agree that current pvp levels are somehow broken. I see nothing wrong with lvl 45/49 twink being attackable by lvl 60 or something similar. It can still be a good and close fight. Even 110s stand a chance vs 150s. But when a tl5 guy is attacked by tl7 one (170 vs 207 f.e.) “fun factor” is lost somewhere as there is simply no chance a tl7 twinked character of any profession would ever loose vs tl5 its more matter if he can wipe out whole tl5 team or not.

It aint fun. I could never understand people who rolled those 207s but from what I saw during NWs (when I finally gave NWs I was on a “tl5 war” where there were only 2 tl5s and 3x more tl7s waiting to gank them) there are many people who enjoy duck shooting, hunting backyard lets and ganking tl5 with characters 2 title levels higher so we could simply adjust it a bit and bring back a bit of fun that comes from more or less FAIR fights.

[Saetos]

Yes there would: two twenties.

There's a 207 clan atrox Fixer running around RK2 with Envy of the Xan and Onehander; he's damn fully capable of selecting a target, killing it, and running away or meeping before the 220s start to land a hit on him.

[Chereee]

Well, there's no much point having a TL7 twink. TL7 is end game. If you want to pvp at end game? then get to 220. 207 toons are not twinks, they are twink killers. That makes a huge difference.

Those same twink killers are also twinks. Because of the huge gap between 207 and 220, you don't see 207s running around in the open unless they have TL7 support. Every range has these twink killers. Except 220s. If you don't want TL5 to have twink killers, then you're going to be destroying another pvp range. Why do that when there are solutions that can keep lvl 207-214 fun (and make it funner) as well as tightening the TL5 range like you want, as well fixing the current broken pvp range of 171-206? Cause that means you'll still be attackable by someone higher? Cause it doesn't fit your precious formula? Let it go and see the whole problem. While regular levels are indicative of the power difference, it isn't only what pvp ranges should be balanced around.

If your fun is to kill toons that are way to weak for you while being pocketed by 220's, then yes, our fun > your fun.

You don't seem to grasp what 207 pvp is. Nor what Risk vs Reward is. There's more to it than killing greens while being pocketed.

If a group of TL5's start an offensive it would be great if defenders that appear would be..TL5. Because of the PvP ranges people have decided to take advantage of TL7 twinks who can dramatically swing the outcome of a TL5 tower fight. These so called killers usually turn up with TL7 healing support too which results in an impossible time for the TL5's that can actually attack them.

There's twinnk killers at every level range! The only difference is that 220s are plentiful, and usually the faction that's dominating have more TL7 support at anytime, while at lower lvls, the faction that's dominating doesn't necessarily have twinks in the range online. There is currently no one to keep TL5 in check except those twink killers. Asking 207s to be removed as a threat, making their toons unviable, and designing ranges where TL5 have no one higher up to fear. That's what I call selfish.

What I know is 1 RK lvl != 1 SL lvl, thus range should be tighter at 200+.

*claps*

Now take the next step and recognize that there's more at play than levels. 1 RK lvl != 1 RK lvl. 1 SL lvl != 1 SL lvl. Stop thinking that, it's bad for your health.

There's a 207 clan atrox Fixer running around RK2 with Envy of the Xan and Onehander; he's damn fully capable of selecting a target, killing it, and running away or meeping before the 220s start to land a hit on him.

A fixer can meep at any lvl. There are also counters to meeping, and dare I say, 220s have more tools at their disposal to deal with it. If it makes you feel any better, consider meeping a death. If you don't like dealing with meep in the hands of a 207, make your voice loud and clear by refusing to play your TL5 twinks, just like Flyinengi. If you aren't playing your twinks, then that's indicative of your opinion of TL5 pvp, not of the playerbase's to which I'm referring to. Here's a revelation, I don't have a TL5 twink. I don't plan to, not with these ranges. So you don't need to convince me of your personal opinions cause I share it. What I do know is that if I do decide to roll a toon open to 207s, I'm not gonna complain. I know what I'll be getting into. Nothing wrong with a little planning and finding a way to have fun. It's unfair that, given a choice of a twink level, I chose the right level for me and the 165 who complains in this thread made the bad choice. Why should the one who made the bad choice be rewarded, and the one who made the good choice penalized? 165s should take the loss and retire their toons, or keep playing if they're okay with the ranges. If you're complaining, you made a mistake. Mistake = Loss. Take it. If you keep playing, you're either a masochist or you see no problem with the ranges.

You have no credibility to begin with. All your posts can be summed up as:

plz no nerf mai 207s gankrange or ima QQ moar!!1 !

Aww, are we resorting to personal attacks now? /care

calculation rules at the moment are around these percents ; Team range: 72,5% - 138% / Pvp range : 80% - 125%
that was may be correct long time ago when SL released but since a lot of new content, last being LoX, 200+ grown a lot stronger than TL5/6.

so i propose a controlled gradient for Pvp range (Team remains like now) going to 86% - 116% @ 220, to same than now @ 158

Because levels alone are what determines the power you gain? There people go again looking at this one dimensional stat.

220: 190-220

Because this is balanced, yes? Let's run through Cheree's viable pvp range test.

1. What is the range? 153-190-220
2. Is this analysis speculation or a reflection of current game mechanics? It's closer to reflection, as the range proposed for this lvl is pretty much identical to what is currently in game. Since we're changing other variables, the biggest one being that TL5 no longer have to fear 207-214, then there's a slight chance that someone will be willing to accept the risk/reward to become a TL5 twink killer.
3. Do we need to look at risk/reward? No, because of (2). We can just look at what level players twink at. What players play is more indicative of what players are willing to accept than some armchair debate over what's too powerful and what's not. No one's shedding a tear for 175s, but many are up and arms about 165 twinks but don't care enough to retire them. You can bypass all that debate by looking at what players are giving up to gain another level, not what they say they are (or aren't) willing to give up.
4. Are there any 190 twinks? Nope.
5. Is it a viable pvp range? Nope, the players have spoken through action.

With this change, it's very probable that TL6+ twinks won't exist. TL5s will not have to fear anyone of a higher level. You just broke any semblance of pvp between 174-215. Good job. It's not a fix. It's a TL5 bellybutton patch.

The other scenario is that players do decide that the reward for 174-189 is worth being open to 207s, just like players now have decided that going 165 is worth being open to 207s. How different is a 174-189 from a 165 in the eyes of a 207? Not much. You're putting off the complaints to another level range.

A lot of what I'm saying was said on page 1: Sterva's post here.

[bitnykk]

i disagree on most of your answers to other people too, but i'll concentrate on when you quoted me. i'll detail why i posted those ranges.

i began considering a 220 shouldnt attack someone being 175, moreover with nowadays AR/Def content for 200+ and esp 215/16+. so starting PVP range for 220 at 190 isn't THAT balanced for the 190 but it's STILL making more sense than starting 175 ! you're free to deny that ofc.

then i considered the 150 should stay takable by 189 max as now.
knowing people twink 174 for them and TL5 BS, i considered they shouldnt be killable by 215+ as now. 207/8 max seems more fair to me.
somehow i considered 189 (or 190 may be ?) as non-takable by 220 but allowed to kill 150ish is fair. more than now.
i felt 207 should stay takable by 220, and useful to kill 175-189 (or 190 ?) as they're intended.

This way a pure TL5 war will stay TL5. If a side decide to push 175 or TL6 (189-190) that will become TL7able (207-220). but less directly than now.
Admit it or not : at the moment any TL5 slips to TL7 because range are broken at exactly 175.

To finish, lemme correct you : without this change, it's a known fact that TL6 twinks DO NOT exist anyway. With it they MIGHT, with the risk to be exposed to 207+, themselves exposed to 220, themselves not allowed to crush 175.

i consider this as better than now but i don't pretend it's perfect. in a perfect game, wether max level can kill min (and that's gay) wether you can only kill your level or no PVP at all (and that's boring).

[Chereee]

190: 153-220

somehow i considered 189 (or 190 may be ?) as non-takable by 220 but allowed to kill 150ish is fair. more than now.

Which is it? 220 can attack down to 190 or not?

then i considered the 150 should stay takable by 189 max as now.
knowing people twink 174 for them and TL5 BS, i considered they shouldnt be killable by 215+as now. 207/8 max seems more fair to me.

People twink 174 if they only want to do BS, they don't twink 174 for NWs. There's practically no difference between a 170 and a 174 in equipment/research/items/perks/nanos, just some ip that can't be used to best effect because of TL locks anyway. So they get more psychology, big deal. The huge risk/reward change is the increase in risk which no one interested in NW will take. You really should go to the next benchmark, cause if 170 doesn't deserve to be attacked by 207, I'm pretty sure 174 don't either. 170 and 174 is practically the same. Heck, 170 and 189 is practically the same.

i felt 207 should stay takable by 220, and useful to kill 175-189 (or 190 ?) as they're intended.

207s open to 220s.. Do you know what you're saying? A 207 is as easy to gank for a 220 that a 165 is to a 207. You'll either have these gank and run scenarios that you see now, pockets if the faction is dominating, or no twinks at all. That type of pvp will only exist if there are TL5/TL6 twinks in range. Will there be? Well, that depends on the clarification of what 190 can be attacked by. Cause if 190 can be attacked by 220, there will be nothing for 207s to attack. 175-190? I don't think there's enough to gain for TL5 to go there.

To finish, lemme correct you : without this change, it's a known fact that TL6 twinks DO NOT exist anyway. With it they MIGHT, with the risk to be exposed to 207+, themselves exposed to 220, themselves not allowed to crush 175.

I don't get it. First you say 220 can attack 190. Then you base some of this post on how 190s might pvp because they're not exposed to 220. Then 207 can attack 190, but 207 can also attack down to 174? Get yourself together!

If the ranges you posted originally are correct, then...
165-173 get massive love, no one to fear
174-189 not worth being open to 207, you don't gain much
190s still open to 220, they don't change (none now rite?), aka no twinks
207-214 get destroyed because of nothing to gank and unviable vs 220s

So really, this smells like TL5 love to me, at the cost of TL7 twinks. You don't give someone a pat on the head when they make a bad decision, you don't kick someone in the nuts for making a good decision. That's what you're suggesting imo. I didn't make a choice based on what should be, but what is. Some are going: "I want to pvp at 165, but I'll get ganked. I'll make a twink anyway and complain to FC. They'll make everything all better." Get real, you made a bad choice. This doesn't justify the mechanics, it justifies good choices and how selfish people come off when they don't consider the investments of others who made the RIGHT CALL.

[Ciex]

People are so desperate to keep those lame towers that some of them will accept obviously broken mechanic anyway, no matter what you say.

[Flyingengi]

It's almost as if I took my 49 twink to BS and chain killed every lvl20 noob that is trying to get ofab.

[Questra]

To be fair, things could be much worse than they are now.

You could have level 189 twinks pocketted by 220 docs, crats, and engies killing level 150 CTs.

The reason we don't have anything that lame is because noone cares enough to do it, and because it isn't fun.

No matter what PvP level ranges you have, there is going to be the option of tl7s coming to tl5 battles to give one side an edge.

And the other side is always going to have the option to bring tl7s to try to take out those pocketting/ganking tl7s.

While I'm sympathetic, and have been on the recieving end of this many times, I've also been on the giving end. I've made 208 shades use evac beacons or run away with 5% HP 1 v 1 before from a 170. I've killed 211 NTs before.

Problems with pocketting and level ranges exist at other title levels as well. It's just that noone cares enough about those levels for it to become a big problem.

At least with tl5/7, pretty much everyone has a tl7 toon that they can use to join the fight if the other side brings tl7s into it.

[Flyingengi]

No one said there's nothing wrong here

So you agree there is a problem with the tl5 pvp ranges?

[Chereee]

So you agree there is a problem with the tl5 pvp ranges?

Wrong is when there's an imbalance. Yes, TL5 pvp ranges are wrong just like every other pvp range. Unless you have two identical toons pvping eachother, something's gonna be wrong. How wrong it is can be changed.

I'm mostly attacking those who roll a twink, complain, keep playing their twink, and suggest a 'fix' that hurts another pvp range and transforms theirs into a utopia - something no one has but 220s. Read my posts for more info. I've already said what I think about the power difference between 165-207. I've already said a lot of things. XD

[bitnykk]

I've already said a lot of things. XD

in fact you're making false suppositions, based on biased judgement and think posting every 2 messages to contradict people let your opinion right.

i don't think so

every point you trying to make are almost senseless. eg :
- 174 are BS toons but also PVP twinks, i don't see why they couldn't come to wars (in fact a lot of them do !).
- 170 and 189 ain't practically the same at the moment : 170 ain't opened to 220 and 189 can't kill TL4.
- a 207 can be as easy to gank for a 220 than a 165 is for a 207 at the moment
- 207 stays viable only for high TL5 (possibly MR) gank, as intended, but higher than now
- when 214 became a twinkable range ? explaine me ?
- you're supposing too much : i got no 165 twink nor 207, i'm trying to be objective over gear/power (i almost can say i don't care somehow)
- what me or other people wrote is pretty clear, if you don't get it i can't help you ... but my intuition is that you're trying to play the genuine to preach your point of view (that everybody can read at almost every page, relax, pls)

don't feel forced to post right after me, as you done so far, let some more people debate, will you ?

[sultryvoltron]

On one hand, you see 207 twink killers as stupid.

But, on the other hand Cheree has a valid point hidden in the flames and retorts. If you allow people to level too high and leave them unchecked by higher characters, they will roll all over the lower level players. If one set of people is going to level to the extreme max of another group's pvp range, they MUST face the music and open themselves up to a higher level range.

What is the appropriate range? I can't say, but it sure is higher than 190, it's probably even close to 205. Think of it this way, from 165 on to 190, very few improvements can be made to the character barring less than 6 points of any stat from symbiants. From 190 to 200, still marginal benefits due to breed caps and a small range giving only 40 stats (10 levels). From 201-207 they get 7*20=140 point increase in stats (35 levels of increase). Totalled together, that's 45 levels of increase from 165 to 207 is equivalent to 45 levels of increase. I can't look up the stats right now, but does that follow the pattern of increasing PvP range sizes based upon level?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

On one hand, you see 207 twink killers as stupid.

But, on the other hand Cheree has a valid point hidden in the flames and retorts. If you allow people to level too high and leave them unchecked by higher characters, they will roll all over the lower level players. If one set of people is going to level to the extreme max of another group's pvp range, they MUST face the music and open themselves up to a higher level range.

What is the appropriate range? I can't say, but it sure is higher than 190, it's probably even close to 205. Think of it this way, from 165 on to 190, very few improvements can be made to the character barring less than 6 points of any stat from symbiants. From 190 to 200, still marginal benefits due to breed caps and a small range giving only 40 stats (10 levels). From 201-207 they get 7*20=140 point increase in stats (35 levels of increase). Totalled together, that's 45 levels of increase from 165 to 207 is equivalent to 45 levels of increase. I can't look up the stats right now, but does that follow the pattern of increasing PvP range sizes based upon level?

no: and thats the point. 200-207=5*(207-200)= 35*RK levels.

SL levels are BS. I see why froobs stay froobs. It's a way better game.

[Ciex]

It's almost as if I took my 49 twink to BS and chain killed every lvl20 noob that is trying to get ofab.

Its more like killing those 20s with lvl 100 character because between lvl 170 and 207 there are 2 title levels while lvl 20 and 49 is a single tl2.

Sorry, had to! I kinda miss going to tower sites alone

No one cames to tl5 wars anymore so im not sure what exactly do you miss. You will be alone there for sure.