Low Level Trader(s) Drains

[Anarrina]

Merged two threads that are essentially about the same subject.

[Original]

Well from my experience with lowbie pvp 2 things are wrong.. The first OBs are way too powerful and should be removed from PvP altogether which coincidentally is one of the reasons traders are so powerful as they get the most NCU and gain the most benefit of any profession from OBs..

OBs remove ALL 3 weaknesses a trader has 1: selfed traders even predrained can be countered by a good NR setup toon (not even NR perked); leading to 2: their low hp thats covered by behe and HnQ stop the trader being killed while the target is doing so; and 3: Nano problems are non-existant due to OBs and the second thing wrong with lowbie PvP.

The second problem is: Nelebs rod, the weapon everyone knows is OP.. does the most damage and steals nano from the target at a rate almost no profession can get rid of that nano..

Therefore I'd like to suggest not nerfing traders or drains.. but nerfing OBs and exposing the weaknesses a trader should have, rather than nerfing their strong point. Perhaps upon getting flag/duelling buffs are wiped with a buff up period or possibly a way to remove outside buffs only when you do by giving them a tag of some kind? I'm not an expert on programming so I don't know what would be practically easier although the second is less hastle for players..

And the inevitable changing of the SoM weapons (mainly Nelebs rod and possibly fear forged blades). They far out-weigh any other weapon with their given requirements and ontop of that have crazy bonuses other than just damage.. I'm all for new different stuff, but if you add nano drain to a weapon dont make it have lower requirements and more damage than anything remotely near it.. Even fear-forged blades were more powerful than most weapons previously not to mention the 40 piercing they add so they are ridiculously easy to get 100%.. (Possibly slightly off-topic but nelebs rod is certainly one of the problems with traders and this was related).

[MassDebater]

Bump for capping drain amount to 3x the targeted players level to level 100

15=45
21=63
49=147
60=180
74=222
100=300
====== then 1.5x from here on
101=302
165=398
174=411
200=500
======= then 10x for sl
207=570
215=650
220=700

[erozc]

And thats the way it should remain, no level locks.

I wasn't commenting on whether level locks should or shouldn't be in place. The fact is, the trader key toolset isn't level locked, and some other professions suffer from level locks quite greatly. Cpmbined with the inherent ability to move up in the toolset really quickly, you get imbalance. Please re-read the post if you didn't grasp the general idea.

[Kuegen]

I wasn't commenting on whether level locks should or shouldn't be in place. The fact is, the trader key toolset isn't level locked, and some other professions suffer from level locks quite greatly. Cpmbined with the inherent ability to move up in the toolset really quickly, you get imbalance. Please re-read the post if you didn't grasp the general idea.

Technically i didnt comment that you commented that there should be level locks. We can play this game all day.

Point is level locks arent the answer. 3x the level as far as crippling(and not the benefit)
goes would be reasonable, if target is a player. Drains shouldnt be nerfed in PVM (if anything, a greater AAO demod on mobs may be nicer, since lowering their skills doesnt affect their AR).

Someone else mentioned traders can get too much weapon skills.... Sure. However no special for a trader is cheap, and we all know drains dont buff weapon specials.

Now not every weapon has huge special reqs (although raising specials does require more IP) but Traders also have more limits on weapons, no CoH weps, no great progression weapons (perenniums) I guess they have JAME, and they can get that on a few levels lower than a sold?

OSBs are the problem seriously. drains arent OP, its the mochs along with drains. BS already disables OSBs, a slightly altered version could be used for towers im not gonna give suggestions here cuz its the wrong place.

meh im not even gonna finish

[rayje-defunct]

omfg... i just came up with this now, and it came to me as i was thinking about a 21 trader i recently made...
and shame on all of you for not thinking about this sooner...

the nano lines: mochams are as it seems are the biggest cause of imbalance with traders right? each one has a nano line like "biomet buff, or psymod buff"... so add each of those nano lines to every drain, thereby when people would drain the drain boost will overwrite the mochs... problem solved, traders arent nerfed or OPd, and nothing else complex or unstable would need to be modified with drains...

edit: now that i think about it, not sure if that would have any effect on laddering drains considering each of the 2 drain lines have a diff main line...

[bitnykk]

honestly the problem isn't on mocham. it's even what makes AO interesting : osb, laddering of items/nanos, higher grounds. the actual problem is the unbalanceness between how high low title trader can debuff compared to how low other professions skill/AR is stucked at ...

in the end the only way to solve that is to add a cap of debuffing PVP target : the PVM/twinking/Predrain would stay the exact same (or older trader/agent twinks would be OP to newer ! what we don't want !) but anyhow the fights will become balanced from now on with such fair capping.

[rayje-defunct]

honestly the problem isn't on mocham. it's even what makes AO interesting : osb, laddering of items/nanos, higher grounds. the actual problem is the unbalanceness between how high low title trader can debuff compared to how low other professions skill/AR is stucked at ...

in the end the only way to solve that is to add a cap of debuffing PVP target : the PVM/twinking/Predrain would stay the exact same (or older trader/agent twinks would be OP to newer ! what we don't want !) but anyhow the fights will become balanced from now on with such fair capping.

yes but, having played a trader in pvp... it IS the mochs... without them a trader cant ladder into nearly as high of drains, which in turn means they cant drain even close to as much (thereby accomplishing the goal)

i know well how high other proffs skills at any given lvl can be, and how it compares to how much a trader can debuff... and they cant debuff so much without mochs, period.

edit: everyone is trying entirely too hard to make the solution to this more complicated than it needs to be, the simple breakdown of the problem is the fact that drains stack with mochs which make them ridiculous, and the simple solution is to keep them from stacking (and the same mechanism can be used that has solved similar imbalance issues with stacking nanos in the past, nano lines are used for a reason) its kindof always been right there in front of us, we have just been waiting for it to be implemented...

[Hacre]

{Removed by Venachar: This line wasn't necessary...}

That means, those of us (ie, me) who run with buffs for our intended level range, ie, Comp Mastery, also get screwed as well as the actual twinking process getting hit with a giant nerf bat.

Level lock nanites to 75 or 76 or whatever level that particular TL3 BS locks at. Whinefest solved.

[bitnykk]

it IS the mochs... make the solution to this more complicated than it needs to be

it ISN'T the mochams. traders ain't OP in PVM and fix this way would give old twinks advantage (higher CL, better NCU, etc ...) so definitely NOP ! please stop that osb QQ.

the ONLY simple way is to control exactly what CAN and CANNOT land on a PVP target according to level and skill/AR cap. nothing would be nerfed : only fight balancing, wich is what we want.

[Hacre]

it ISN'T the mochams. traders ain't OP in PVM and fix this way would give old twinks advantage (higher CL, better NCU, etc ...) so definitely NOP ! please stop that osb QQ.

the ONLY simple way is to control exactly what CAN and CANNOT land on a PVP target according to level and skill/AR cap. nothing would be nerfed : only fight balancing, wich is what we want.

Can't mess with the benefit Traders get from the drains though. Remember, Traders get arguably less PvP damage from a QL 140 weapon than Enforcers do from a QL105 weapon. Drain benefit being nerfed would destroy Trader damage, because their damage is scaled around drains, as well as laddering drains.

[erozc]

Just going with the forum flow, 99.9% of whines are about TL2 Traders casting Nanites.

Other professions haven't gotten stronger since LE either, no sir, only Traders.

But you're right, FC should spend assloads of dev time, not making end game more attractive and less grindy nor getting the new engine done, but lots and lots and lots of time on a level range that a select few roll toons for, that the majority of players blast past in a day or two.

Makes perfect sense.

And traders only got stronger because of nanites while other professions got uber nanos usable in the discussed levels too

Argumenting about dev time neither of us knows about doesn't sound quite informed, either. There's little info on the availability, or in how much is required for other ideas. Except you obviously have a great grasp on all of them since you defined these things to take an "assload" of time.

Let's just save dev time and make a weapon equippable by everyone that caps AS damage at 11 seconds recharge from level 1 onwards, even when 25% OE, since that'd obviously save assloads of dev time by providing an easy balance option (that nobody but a bunch of PvP nerds cares about anyway). This allows them to work on the new engine and the new player experience.

[rayje-defunct]

But you're right, FC should spend assloads of dev time, not making end game more attractive and less grindy nor getting the new engine done, but lots and lots and lots of time on a level range that a select few roll toons for, that the majority of players blast past in a day or two.

you are... joking... right? i would have to say maybe about 5% (maybe 10%) of traders ever rolled are actually to be lvld, and even then its usually to become buff bots... on the other hand, the rest of them are typically twinks under lvl 100, locked, and twinked for pvp... so who would be blowing past pvp ranges exactly? (other than people obviously not making the toon for pvp)

it ISN'T the mochams. traders ain't OP in PVM and fix this way would give old twinks advantage (higher CL, better NCU, etc ...) so definitely NOP ! please stop that osb QQ.

what!? no, traders are not OP in pvm... because they normally do not use mochams for lvling!...
yes old twinks would have an advantage... with CL/ncus, which they wont be using nearly as much of to the full benefit once they have no reason to need at least 102 for mochs in addition to drains and everything else that other people are typically using!

further more, if you are twinking ncu usually thats done first so that the rest of your twinking will have enough to keep moving along, and since at that stage you normally do not have nano skill imps in, you only use mochs, and maybe wrangle to get into your CL buff... since ya know, when you have temp ncus in you always have room for 2 mochs, wrangle, drains and an ncu buff, right?

its not "OSB QQ" its the truth, thats the only thing that traders ALWAYS use (pretty much without exclusion, but only for pvp) that other proffs do not (not always), its the only difference and is the only reason that trader drains get so out of hand, deal with it... O.o

the ONLY simple way is to control exactly what CAN and CANNOT land on a PVP target according to level and skill/AR cap. nothing would be nerfed : only fight balancing, wich is what we want.

how exactly would you propose that? capping debuff end of the drains? yeh cuz, it doesnt matter how much traders also get BUFFED from drains... like ya know, the means by which they use roots, nano drains, and hp drains that you have no hope of getting the NR to resist, since its checking against the actual skill that powers the nano (which would still be super high for their lvl)

quite simply, you cant control what lands or doesnt on pvp targets because of fundamental mechanics of the game (which you are proposing be changed), on the other hand you can in fact control which drains are being used and to what extent/advantage by simply disallowing ridiculously high ones being used at all (thereby keeping them within reason)...
instead of changin mechanics, and making totally new ones why the hell not use the one thats already there, and was made for this purpose!?

{Venachar: Removed unnecessary trollbait.}

[erozc]

But I covered the discussed levels with a lock on Nanites.

I agree that it's definitely a step for the better. It's still not an idea that's without issue, or one that addresses many of the problematic aspects discussed earlier in the thread. But I think the discussion here has run its course already.

(PS nice to see you posting again eroz, where'd you go?)

Got busy with other stuff. Don't worry, I'll be around.

[bitnykk]

wouldnt you people want lowbie pvp to actually BE a fight/competition, instead of just "whoever casts a drain first/at all wins"?)

i do but my conclusion is to cap the debuff a target can receive from a trader. i don't want mocham to share drainline, or any osb/twink nor pvm nerf. i don't see why we should nerf one of the most interesting game aspect : twinking. but we all (or almost all) agree that aspect shan't waste another aspect : pvp balance.

so, how then ? read previous post in this thread, several people including me proposed some ways (level cap, title cap, % of AR, etc ...). we're not here to decide but to propose, hope FC will read this and do something good out.

[rayje-defunct]

i do but my conclusion is to cap the debuff a target can receive from a trader. i don't want mocham to share drainline, or any osb/twink nor pvm nerf. i don't see why we should nerf one of the most interesting game aspect : twinking. but we all (or almost all) agree that aspect shan't waste another aspect : pvp balance.

so, how then ? read previous post in this thread, several people including me proposed some ways (level cap, title cap, % of AR, etc ...). we're not here to decide but to propose, hope FC will read this and do something good out.

but like i said, even though you may cap the DEBUFF, the BUFF will still be way too high... using selfed drains wouldnt nerf twinking or pvm at all since as stated, people dont usually use mochams for their drains in pvm because they dont need to, nor do they need drains to be 5 times their lvl to be able to twink...(did you actually READ what i said?)

i did in fact read the previous posts on this thread before posting, and that is in fact why i waited so long before posting anything (i hadnt come up with anything relevant)...

lvl caps wouldnt solve the problem, since say for example you cap the ql 60 drains for req=lvl 30, this certainly does not stop a lvl 14 from getting mochs and casting every drain up to that lvl lock... at that point, not only are the drains still over 4 times their lvl, but their skill that powers the drain is still WAY too high (from the buff) for anyone to have a chance in hell of resisting... then the next lvl bracket of pvp would see traders at 30 that get all the drains up to the next lvl lock etc... (doesnt balance)

tl capping, see above...

capping the amount a person can be drained, they will still get a totally unfair buff from the drains regardless of whether or not they are crippling their opponent... see above

%s instead of hard numbers wouldnt solve the problem because that would DEFFINITELY nerf traders totally (especially in twinking), not only would the amount they drain be inconsistent but that would make the amount they get buffed unpredictable because it would vary based on the target...(nerfs traders)

[Hacre]

Since when did quality level = your level?

[Original]

Some people have been using the excuse that removing OBs would nerf twinking/PvM. Removing OBs in PvP alone wouldn't and would balance traders at lower level which is a good thing, I suggested two ways to impliment this and I won't repeat them here and waste tonnes of space but I will expand on something else that i didn't mention..

Predraining is another thing that gives traders an advantage as they don't need to drain up to gain benefit from higher nanos from what I've seen they're lowering the duration of drains and some hostile nanos in PvP anyway? Which means this isn't as much of an issue anymore as by the time they predrain and get to another target their drains will most likely be out.. If the shorter duration is not being implimented then this would need to be addressed too, otherwise it seems to me to be pretty balanced overall.

[bitnykk]

now, i think we warned FC, proposed fixing ideas, their job to implement into rebalance.

as for grey heckling & ost, enf/adv totally OP in PVP, or level 207 pvp range : there'll be QQers to keep things the way they are, or nerf everybody the same instead of capping what needs to be capped : here, the trader drains under TL4 PVP !

[rayje-defunct]

There has been plenty of suggestions to fix this simple issue(level locks, fix OSB, drain adjustments etc.), but nothing has been done in about 9 years. Thats pathetic. Yeah, yeah, enfs should be nerfed too, but thats another issue. Only ones that really seem to defend this stupid mechanic to not be changed must be the idiots who are afraid to lose their 10 trader "twinks" because they cant pwn everybody in 10s anymore.

Usually everybody whines how boring is, that 98% of the time towerfields are owned by same orgs or that traders are so OP in low levels. But when somebody suggest changing that, then the same guys whine how changing them would "ruin the whole game "(== a.k.a losing my possibility to pwn without even trying).

this is pretty much in essence what i was trying to get across...

now, i think we warned FC, proposed fixing ideas, their job to implement into rebalance.

as for grey heckling & ost, enf/adv totally OP in PVP, or level 207 pvp range : there'll be QQers to keep things the way they are, or nerf everybody the same instead of capping what needs to be capped : here, the trader drains under TL4 PVP !

how exactly are enfo or advy OP in pvp? i think they do exactly what those proffs are made to do...

anyway, the thing that gets me is that not only had they not fixed this issue years ago (even after patching the +intel sploit traders used to use), but that it didnt make it onto the rebalance list...

i really seriously hope they do something about this cuz under tl4 traders ruin the viability and fun of every other proff and everyone else in (tower) pvp...(yeh thats right, i came out and said it)