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Thread: Assist changes

  1. #1

    Assist changes

    Guys, many times and many peoples suggest remove assist. I understand what that happens – now this ability is boost for no fun zerg PvP, where not needed tactic or strategy, where need only numbers. Orbitals try nerf this, but that was not effective.

    Means don't want remove assist – hi is right, this ability very important for coordination.
    But i think need some tweak assist for improvement fun in mass PvP.

    Why this topic here and not on Suggestion forums?
    Changes in assist can improvement or nerf many profs.

    So, i want start discussion about it.
    What assist can be changed?
    What this changes be affected to profs?
    What this changes be affected to PvP
    What this changes be affected to PvE

    My offer: Team assist

    1. Very simple code changes – just add checking before assist select target, caller in your team or not.
    2. This form of assist used in Age of Conan and this improvement to team PvP and nerf Zerg PvP.
    3. Nerf damage on 1 target –> you can use your defense ability before you die –> more longer battles.
    4. Need coordination many teams –> need more movements –> more tactics ability.
    5. Nerf assist heal macros.
    6. I think not need raid assist (thats be same zerg PvP anyway), only team.

    Option
    We can use old assist mechanic for PvE zones, but need 1 more checking for Suppression Gas %
    Last edited by Mavritanic; Apr 2nd, 2010 at 08:42:10.
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    Alternity: I never initiated a serious dialog

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    |_______..... _________________| ||__|'__|_____||<
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  2. #2
    Bump for this.

    Would actually give merit to being the leader of a team :O
    and, gasp, being a good leader of a team would.. potentially.. actually matter :O
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  3. #3
    that goes in the right direction! though i`d like to see the on-button-assist removed and something like highlighting an opponent and you still have to target him yourself.

  4. #4
    Sounds good. Shouldn't matter too much for PVE since all the raid content is either done with 1-2 teams, big zergs (where everything will die quickly enough anyway) or where assist isn't even really required.

    Or as previously said, just add a "Is gas <= 25% ?" check before blocking assist
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  5. #5
    Assist is quite important to coordinate raids. Removing it, implies introducing other features to maintain a raid somewhat coordinated. I kind of like what some of the games out there did in that respect, which is, a set of symbols (death, shield, heart, 1, 2, 3, etc), settable on everyone/every mob by the RI leader, and visible by everyone in the RI. A set of assist commands is also available, to select the equivalent symbol but those are used in PVM raids, and rarely in mass-pvp.

    RI leader communicates via teamspeak or other ventrilos, and uses those symbols so everyone can see quickly who's who, who's important (docs, leader himself, but also enemy docs etc), and who we need to attack in 1,2,3, etc priority.

    We kinda try to do that in AO, but it's custom made, i.e. everyone in leet/wolf, except the main tank, cause you need to see him, Pande anyone?. In Notum Wars the leader usually jumps like a nut so everyone can see where he or she is. Seeing a floating symbol on top of his/her head would make things simple .

    For some reason, "Follow the white rabbit" in Matrix comes to mind .

  6. #6
    Team assist only would be fine, imo. There aren't any raids where you need more than 1 team to focus on a target at the same time.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    There aren't any raids where you need more than 1 team to focus on a target at the same time.
    That's not saying there won't be in the future though. It's mostly due to the lack of raids that require more than a team or two.

    I think smaller Sec42 raids still require some assisting across teams btw. Haven't done 42 for quite a while though, so might be it's no longer required with todays profession strength.

    Another thing is removing the possibility of heal assisting. It'll force healers to mouse target anything outside their team. We already do that enough already, and it removes a lot of the healing dynamic in larger raids.

    I definetly agree that assisting in mass PvP isn't a lot of fun, but on BS it'd still be pretty much the same, since not a lot of people manage to gather more than a team and make them run around assisting together.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavritanic View Post
    Guys, many times and many peoples suggest remove assist. I understand what that happens – now this ability is boost for no fun zerg PvP, where not needed tactic or strategy, where need only numbers. Orbitals try nerf this, but that was not effective.

    Means don't want remove assist – hi is right, this ability very important for coordination.
    But i think need some tweak assist for improvement fun in mass PvP.

    Why this topic here and not on Suggestion forums?
    Changes in assist can improvement or nerf many profs.

    So, i want start discussion about it.
    What assist can be changed?
    What this changes be affected to profs?
    What this changes be affected to PvP
    What this changes be affected to PvE

    My offer: Team assist

    1. Very simple code changes – just add checking before assist select target, caller in your team or not.
    2. This form of assist used in Age of Conan and this improvement to team PvP and nerf Zerg PvP.
    3. Nerf damage on 1 target –> you can use your defense ability before you die –> more longer battles.
    4. Need coordination many teams –> need more movements –> more tactics ability.
    5. Nerf assist heal macros.
    6. I think not need raid assist (thats be same zerg PvP anyway), only team.

    Option
    We can use old assist mechanic for PvE zones, but need 1 more checking for Suppression Gas %
    I almost agree with this. I would love to see "/assist <name>" only work for people in your team. I recon this would improve both pvp and pvm because it means that teams need to function as a team rather than a zerg.

    I would like to keep "/assist" without a name working for anyone (it already works on NPCs). Mainly for the purposes of assist healing. Assist healing is essential for pvm and really useful in pvp. I have two docs, and this macro is always on my hotbar, I tend to use it more often than the team/raid windows. It's definitely not the same as zerging and it does keep people alive. I know you could have everyone target a caller and /assist, but do you really think zerglings would choose to do this over just having a team based caller?

    One last one, I recon doing this for all situations would be a much simpler code change than trying to make it zone specific. I can't think of any other zone-specific macro so I would suspect the code probably doesn't exist.
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  9. #9
    I definetly agree that assisting in mass PvP isn't a lot of fun, but on BS it'd still be pretty much the same, since not a lot of people manage to gather more than a team and make them run around assisting together.
    1. Targets target very usefull for this situation.
    2. Assist heal really need in PvE, but i think can be removed from PvP. Anyway Targets target still active, and you can use this.
    The Clan Messiah statement
    You hit Nirvelle with nanobots for 7110365 points of radiation damage.
    Alternity: I never initiated a serious dialog

    "... who are you, then?"
    "I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good" (c) Goethe

    |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\| ||\____
    |.............Vodka-Vodka..........| ||','''|'''''''\____,
    |_______..... _________________| ||__|'__|_____||<
    '''''(@)'(@)''''''''''''''''''''''**|(@)(@)******| (@)*

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavritanic View Post
    1. Targets target very usefull for this situation.
    What situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavritanic View Post
    2. Assist heal really need in PvE, but i think can be removed from PvP. Anyway Targets target still active, and you can use this.
    Would still force doctors into mouse clicking their targets, which would be a stupid development. PvP is unfolding so fast these days, that you'll take away a very large healing capacity by removing the ability to assist heal via macros. It's already hard enough to perform the role of healer in PvP, so let's not make it any worse.

    Play a doctor and play a few hundred rounds with and without heal assisting. You'll see how large an impact it has on healing capabilities.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  11. #11
    spam 2 battons (assist+heal) is bad idea for PvP heal.

    Anyway, if assist be nerfed - docs be have more time for heal. Now, with zerg assist, target is instadied after call
    The Clan Messiah statement
    You hit Nirvelle with nanobots for 7110365 points of radiation damage.
    Alternity: I never initiated a serious dialog

    "... who are you, then?"
    "I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good" (c) Goethe

    |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\| ||\____
    |.............Vodka-Vodka..........| ||','''|'''''''\____,
    |_______..... _________________| ||__|'__|_____||<
    '''''(@)'(@)''''''''''''''''''''''**|(@)(@)******| (@)*

  12. #12
    If you are using the Raid Interface then you do not need the /assist Heal Macro. If you are just in a team, then F1 through F6 should be quick enough.

    For pvp, you will have to pull out important raid members for quick healing, and spread out healers.



    An alternative to /assist used by shadowbane was a /target player. You could not make a macro accessible from a hotbar, so you would have to manually type a targets name and it would highlight them. It is more difficult to use but it is closer to non-zerg and tactical play than we currently have.

  13. #13
    for changes to assist, FC could implement a check on hatelist.

    if hatelist>## then script: you cannot attack this person

    this would put a hardcap on the number of attackers any one person would have.

    This would also be a very serious "darwin" maker, since, if your team called a doc who was out of range, for example, and couldn't get to him, you'd have to switch targets asap to let another team onto the hatelist while you get off it.

    The only problem I can see with this is if you stay on the hatelist for some period of time even after switchig targets.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    for changes to assist, FC could implement a check on hatelist.

    if hatelist>## then script: you cannot attack this person

    this would put a hardcap on the number of attackers any one person would have.

    This would also be a very serious "darwin" maker, since, if your team called a doc who was out of range, for example, and couldn't get to him, you'd have to switch targets asap to let another team onto the hatelist while you get off it.

    The only problem I can see with this is if you stay on the hatelist for some period of time even after switchig targets.
    it be sploited by farming DD from mobs
    The Clan Messiah statement
    You hit Nirvelle with nanobots for 7110365 points of radiation damage.
    Alternity: I never initiated a serious dialog

    "... who are you, then?"
    "I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good" (c) Goethe

    |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\| ||\____
    |.............Vodka-Vodka..........| ||','''|'''''''\____,
    |_______..... _________________| ||__|'__|_____||<
    '''''(@)'(@)''''''''''''''''''''''**|(@)(@)******| (@)*

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    An alternative to /assist used by shadowbane was a /target player. You could not make a macro accessible from a hotbar, so you would have to manually type a targets name and it would highlight them. It is more difficult to use but it is closer to non-zerg and tactical play than we currently have.
    macros for spam to chat "target >%t< click here for assist" where here is "/target %t" – thats be same as now.
    All chat commands can be used in scripts or macros – this is game mechanic
    Last edited by Mavritanic; Apr 6th, 2010 at 08:21:28.
    The Clan Messiah statement
    You hit Nirvelle with nanobots for 7110365 points of radiation damage.
    Alternity: I never initiated a serious dialog

    "... who are you, then?"
    "I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good" (c) Goethe

    |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\| ||\____
    |.............Vodka-Vodka..........| ||','''|'''''''\____,
    |_______..... _________________| ||__|'__|_____||<
    '''''(@)'(@)''''''''''''''''''''''**|(@)(@)******| (@)*

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Avari View Post
    Would still force doctors into mouse clicking their targets, which would be a stupid development. PvP is unfolding so fast these days, that you'll take away a very large healing capacity by removing the ability to assist heal via macros. It's already hard enough to perform the role of healer in PvP, so let's not make it any worse.

    Play a doctor and play a few hundred rounds with and without heal assisting. You'll see how large an impact it has on healing capabilities.
    Bump for Avari ... I don't think any of you others play a high level doc. I certainly use /assist far more than I use the raid interface and F1-6. Also, why would you want to remove it, if you genuinely think other means are just as fast as /assist?

    This suggestion is about blocking "/assist <target>" to prevent zergs. "/assist" doesn't allow you to zerg and I don't see why it needs to change. Why do you all want to remove assist heals?
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    Forefix 178/18

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    If you are using the Raid Interface then you do not need the /assist Heal Macro. If you are just in a team, then F1 through F6 should be quick enough.
    Dragging out people in raid interface still means mouse targeting, which means slower healing. Waiting for people to take dmg, then target with F1-F6, and then heal will put defending players at a disadvantage also. Only a minority of professions has enough HP to soak up those first hits before the doctor has registered the dmg and targeted the player with healing

    Attacking players can either "tab+q" or "team caller macro + q" (if we play with the idea a little). Why should defending players be forced to use something more troublesome like mouse targeting and be at a disadvantage?

    The defensive aspect of heal assisting is not what creates a zerg-like environment. It's merely the offensive part that does. Even with several doctors heal assisting you can still kill someone if you're more than a single team. Simply because reaction time of healers and client update time is slower than 8-10 people hitting their specials at roughly the same time. Remember also, that while dmg is never "wasted" heals often are since we can't heal beyond 100%. When you put more than a couple of healers together you'll see a diminished return in survival capabilities while dmg professions scale perfectly with killing power. A perfect example of this is current tower wars. Healers matter, but even 20 doctors can't save anyone who's being called simply because 20 dmg professions targeting one person is more or less equal to instant death (not counting lag here since it goes both ways).
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Avari View Post
    Remember also, that while dmg is never "wasted" heals often are since we can't heal beyond 100%.
    Yeah because we can do damage under 0%? The only difference is that heals can be wasted without much consequences as they aren't halved in PvP and recycle fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avari View Post
    A perfect example of this is current tower wars. Healers matter, but even 20 doctors can't save anyone who's being called simply because 20 dmg professions targeting one person is more or less equal to instant death (not counting lag here since it goes both ways).
    This is exactly why zerg-wide assist kills the fun. Spreading attacks can only be a good thing and, as you said, healing assist doesn't work. I won't even mention how it dumbs 'mass PvP' down.
    blah

  19. #19
    assist heal need only for PvE. In mass PVP we can remove it.
    I think this is bad if all docs in raid always heal 1 target by pressing 1 button. Team healing can do more fun in PvP without assist heal. Or you can use targets target any time.

    Anyway, this is same mechanic and same problem. If we remove zerg assist in PvP, be good move remove assist heal too for balancing.
    Last edited by Mavritanic; Apr 6th, 2010 at 15:37:20.
    The Clan Messiah statement
    You hit Nirvelle with nanobots for 7110365 points of radiation damage.
    Alternity: I never initiated a serious dialog

    "... who are you, then?"
    "I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good" (c) Goethe

    |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\| ||\____
    |.............Vodka-Vodka..........| ||','''|'''''''\____,
    |_______..... _________________| ||__|'__|_____||<
    '''''(@)'(@)''''''''''''''''''''''**|(@)(@)******| (@)*

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    Yeah because we can do damage under 0%? The only difference is that heals can be wasted without much consequences as they aren't halved in PvP and recycle fast.
    Attacks will always reduce a targets HP. Attacks beyond 0% can't be done, so you can't waste a special into someone who's already dead. Only nukes/perks can be wasted if the casting was started pre-death and the target died before execution. Heals to a 100% HP person can be done, and as a result healing doesn't scale the same way per character present as dmg does. You wouldn't believe how often two doctors happen to heal the same person for 10k HP. That equals to 10k+ heal being wasted, and your heals still need the same recharge. Maintaining a heal rotation is simply impossible in todays PvP environment, so don't even mention it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    This is exactly why zerg-wide assist kills the fun. Spreading attacks can only be a good thing and, as you said, healing assist doesn't work. I won't even mention how it dumbs 'mass PvP' down.
    I agree, but the OP suggests to remove heal assisting as well, and heal assisting is not what causes the zerg-like mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavritanic View Post
    In mass PVP we can remove it.
    And you base that on what? Your extensive experience as a healer in PvP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavritanic View Post
    I think this is bad if all docs in raid always heal 1 target by pressing 1 button. Team healing can do more fun in PvP without assist heal.
    The majority of people on BS run alone, so as a doctor you have to rely on assist healing in order to play your role. Using targets target and mouse clicking is not an option. I'd like to see your face if the ability to tab people was removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavritanic View Post
    Or you can use targets target any time.
    Heal assisting is targets target, just with a macro, which brings us back to idiot suggestions for more mouse clicking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavritanic View Post
    Anyway, this is same mechanic and same problem. If we remove zerg assist in PvP, be good move remove assist heal too for balancing.
    You're comparing apples with oranges. The two types of assisting aren't proportional in power. Damage dealing is a pro-active action, while healing is a re-active action. Huge difference.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

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