Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 61

Thread: Balancing pvp how about pvm?

  1. #1

    Balancing pvp how about pvm?

    Some professions are amazingly useful in pvm and not so much in pvp. Some are absolute crap in pvm (agents/traders) and decently useful in pvp?

    If you want to balance pvp to make it fair? How about we make pvm fair as well to other professions who have no use in endgame encounters. Apparently u did not understand that when you added the boss/root in last patch. Agents are now completely useless in all endgamed encounters ( we used have a little use in alba, now that's gone).

    A lot of top pvp professions are quite good in pvm as well. Where's the balance in that? I envision there are pvp professions and there are pvm characters. You can not have the best of both worlds.
    Deathmaster1 220/30/70 Dmsengi 220/28/70
    Dmstanker 220/30/70 Dmsdoc 220/25/70
    Anarchic1 126/15/35 Dmsfix 220/30/70
    Imakeyouoe 164/22/42 Imakeyouoe2 85/9/21

    BM of Dark Front - We are recruiting. darkfront.org

  2. #2
    Having the best of both worlds is like asking for world peace. In almost every game across the board (im sure there is 1 or 2 exceptions... FFXI maby) PvM always takes the back seat when developers try to balance PvP. Even the most popular MMO on the market is guilty of screwing up some PvM mechanics in order to balance PvP. With that being said IMO AO has been the only game I have ever considered PvP enjoyable. Just my two cents.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchic1 View Post
    Some professions are amazingly useful in pvm and not so much in pvp. Some are absolute crap in pvm (agents/traders) and decently useful in pvp?

    If you want to balance pvp to make it fair? How about we make pvm fair as well to other professions who have no use in endgame encounters. Apparently u did not understand that when you added the boss/root in last patch. Agents are now completely useless in all endgamed encounters ( we used have a little use in alba, now that's gone).

    A lot of top pvp professions are quite good in pvm as well. Where's the balance in that? I envision there are pvp professions and there are pvm characters. You can not have the best of both worlds.
    I've done Alb since the change and so far we've never been rooted by any of the bosses. Maybe we were just lucky though.

    That said, I agree with your post. The PvM love needs spread around. Crats need a viable replacement in teams, as do Docs and Enfs.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchic1 View Post
    Some are absolute crap in pvm (agents/traders) and decently useful in pvp?
    traders arent crap in pvm. ok they have not so many dmg like sold, shade, crat or engi but its enough to say that they are good in pvm. i can kill 250 bosses in inf with him without any problems. do you need to make dmg in pvm? not really. you can do everything without dmg as long as you have the support items/nanos.
    in pvm you see the differents between support prof and dmg prof, in pvp not really. that is the big problem. i think the best for pvm is that Fc give us new big playfields (like SL) with much higher bosses, and with nice to have items and something like, that you cant kill alone so easily, like it was after SL release.
    RK1
    Cistie 220/30/70 Solitus Trader
    Blackangel85 220/30/70 Atrox Keeper
    Leonearn 220/30/70 Solitus Shade
    Listalis 220/30/70 Solitus Engineer
    Luzifer85 220/30/70 Solitus Adventurer
    Teufel85 220/30/64 Atrox Enforcer
    Spawn85 220/30/58 Solitus Nano-Technican
    Charisse 220/27/59 Solitus Doctor
    Ersa 220/25/58 Solitus Martial Artist
    Daemon85 219/27/57 Nanomage Meta-Physicist
    Lecine 220/30/60 Solitus Bureaucrat

  5. #5
    well congratz we can solo mobs that've have been out for 6 years great.. My agent can spank nearly every inf dyna as well. BUt the matter of fact is what about the endgamed instances, we're undesireables. Hell crats still can solo farm everything in alba at a fast space
    Deathmaster1 220/30/70 Dmsengi 220/28/70
    Dmstanker 220/30/70 Dmsdoc 220/25/70
    Anarchic1 126/15/35 Dmsfix 220/30/70
    Imakeyouoe 164/22/42 Imakeyouoe2 85/9/21

    BM of Dark Front - We are recruiting. darkfront.org

  6. #6
    Well let's see:

    Traders are the only class with instant SL calms (apart from advies but they don't count), the problem is calm immunity on pretty much everything in endgame pvm. Drop that and traders will be very wanted as mezzers.

    MP is the only class with NSD, but the problem is NSD immunity or insane amounts of nano skills on pretty much every endgame encounter. Drop that and MPs will be wanted. Nothing like stopping Beast nukes due to an MP in raid.

    Agents are the only class that can do multiple class job, they can go soldier and give everyone reflects or go crat for xp, fixer for gsf or MA for MoP and evades, then TP to doc and heal rather decently. The problem is that they don't get access to SL buffs and can't really use CH in SL due to huge taunt. Ok on this I will add: a good agent is very very valuable in RK endgame encounters like apf due to replacing 2 profs, but from my experience of teaming agents they barely ever care to buff their team with 2 profs' buffs, and barely ever heal anyone but themselves, so I have a bit of prejudice against inviting an agent if I'm not completely sure they are either good DD or good support.

    So I'd say the problem of MP and trader desirability is in the encounters themselves, and collector is a good step in that direction (well at least for trader, although I don't see why MP wasn't included in the list of punters instead of NT or engi, those classes are fine already).

    The problem of agents are partly in their selfish mindset, partly in the lack of access to SL nanos, but it has been slightly improved lately, so guess we're heading the right way.
    Techno "Calamite" Witch -- 220/22 soli crat
    Hbar -- 220/28 nano NT
    Electropanic -- 170/17 opi NT
    Insanenomore - 174/17 soli engi
    Darksmile -- 220/21 nano enf
    Drifting -- 150/8 nano MP
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    got more, but don't remember their names

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Calamite View Post
    Agents are the only class that can do multiple class job, they can go soldier and give everyone reflects or go crat for xp, fixer for gsf or MA for MoP and evades, then TP to doc and heal rather decently. The problem is that they don't get access to SL buffs and can't really use CH in SL due to huge taunt. Ok on this I will add: a good agent is very very valuable in RK endgame encounters like apf due to replacing 2 profs, but from my experience of teaming agents they barely ever care to buff their team with 2 profs' buffs, and barely ever heal anyone but themselves, so I have a bit of prejudice against inviting an agent if I'm not completely sure they are either good DD or good support.
    Do you have any idea how annoying it is to buff people with the **** nanocost attached to the basic FP nano, and also how long it takes to cast anything with ~400 nano init?

    Granted, I'll buff anyone with anything they ask for, or need (GSF for DB1 for example), but I'm not about to start handing out RRFE and MoP to everyone in the team when it costs 2500 nano and 8 seconds a pop. It's annoying, it takes forever because it requires lots of nano kits, and it prevents me from finishing my buff cycle that's required to be able to function as an almost acceptable toon in a team.

    As for Agent PvM problems... there's no team desirability because we lack good SL nanos, we lack the high end nanos that are necessary for endgame content (Taunts, Malaise, SL Heals, Calms), and we don't contribute much damage. It's probably one of the worst PvM profs for endgame raids, almost all of which are now in SL where again, we can't use the buffs that might actually be useful.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  8. #8
    aye ubt doesn't even work in most endgame pvm encounters. We have no access at all to crat nanos basically to serve as a viable replacement. We can't fp keeper yet even though it's been promised for ages for 12 man. We can't really ever land nsd as a fp mp. Drains don't anything worth mentioning. CH? 10k heal is pointless unless boss is deinted. Gets you major agg as well so be prepared to tank as well. Reflects only in rk. so we can't do reflects for LoX/Pande. Agent dd is one of the worst in game. Can't chain AS, crits are like normal hits for some professions. MA crits 10k, we crit high 3s low 4s. Hit regularly around 2k. We can semi tank with enf but it's hard to hold agg with mongo and ****ty dd.

    Agent has no desireablity at all in teams, unless it's pimped out and very experienced. TPing isn't really that easy to do for most agents unless they are closed to being fully geared. So while it's hard for me to be desireable as a 220 endgamed agent, it's impossible for leveling tl7 agents.
    Deathmaster1 220/30/70 Dmsengi 220/28/70
    Dmstanker 220/30/70 Dmsdoc 220/25/70
    Anarchic1 126/15/35 Dmsfix 220/30/70
    Imakeyouoe 164/22/42 Imakeyouoe2 85/9/21

    BM of Dark Front - We are recruiting. darkfront.org

  9. #9
    I agree. With things being done in a single team, if you're not a doc/crat/sold/enf, you'll need to be a pretty badass DD to get one of the two remaining slots. Give NTs and traders boss mezzes, let them shine. Or just let things be mezzable. Give keepers or solds AOE taunts. Allow advies to heal better at the cost of something else, etc. Nothing like having a team waiting on a single profession to kick start some fun, only to wait for over an hour because there aren't any docs around that want to raid with you.
    Waiting for a cure.

  10. #10
    This topic is almost a month old now, since last post, but I have to say that I agree. As a 219 Agent rapidly approaching endgame I've experienced a lot of negativity in PVM, I almost passed out from shock today when someone actually answered my tell in response to their request for Beast RAID members.

    On RK it's acceptable for us to be doc replacements or backups or to provide calms under FP crat but in SL there is very little to make us desirable for TL7 encounters. I will often go out of my way to provide other team members with buffs if I can, but playing the primary or even backup healer basically means painting a bullseye on your forehead. Any other supporting rolls in SL are a loss from the start.

    PVM damage is terrible, due to AS not being re-usable unless you can be wiped from the mobs hate list. Yes, we can keep healing ourselves very effectively in order to finish off a mob but taking 20+ minutes to kill a prisoner or 45+ to kill an AI city raid general solo is just ridiculous. I'm looking forward to the re-balance possibly bringing us a reusable special, but I just hope that it isn't a disappointment. Instead of the re-usable special, I would much rather see Agents get green or light blue access to other ranged weapon skills offering more choice than just a rifle and AS. Perhaps opening up pistols or SMG's would bring more life to the profession than a re-usable special and a nerf to AS.
    Rimor:
    Russless - 220 Opifex Agent
    Moriarty - 220 Solitus Crat
    Urassis - 170 Nano-mage NT
    Eccles - 219 Opifex fixer
    Subwaysplat - 25 Atrox Enforcer
    Templetastic - 60 Atrox Enforcer
    Shishkabob - Opifex Shade
    Goonagal - Atrox Keeper

    Proud Member of The Empire

  11. #11
    An agent can kill a AI city general WAAAAAAAAY faster than 45 mins...

    I'd rather say more like 13-15 mins...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Stinnipeng View Post
    An agent can kill a AI city general WAAAAAAAAY faster than 45 mins...

    I'd rather say more like 13-15 mins...
    Eeek! @ typo... yes... 15+, *NOT* 45+!!!

    Those keys aren't even that close? Am I getting that senile in my old age?
    Rimor:
    Russless - 220 Opifex Agent
    Moriarty - 220 Solitus Crat
    Urassis - 170 Nano-mage NT
    Eccles - 219 Opifex fixer
    Subwaysplat - 25 Atrox Enforcer
    Templetastic - 60 Atrox Enforcer
    Shishkabob - Opifex Shade
    Goonagal - Atrox Keeper

    Proud Member of The Empire

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Calamite View Post
    Well let's see:

    Traders are the only class with instant SL calms (apart from advies but they don't count), the problem is calm immunity on pretty much everything in endgame pvm. Drop that and traders will be very wanted as mezzers.
    A crat can use bosscalm if they don't have time to wait 1s. Crat calms also don't break on debuffs. Crats also do more dd than a trader, add more attack rating and evades than a trader, refill nano almost as well, and crat init debuffs reduce mob damage ten times more than trader drains do.

    Just saying ;p
    New Engine - Announced: June 2007 ETA: Soon™ I'm speechless (June 2015)
    Rebalancing - Announced: January 2009 ETA: December 21, 2012 Started! (April 2015)
    New TL7 Pets - Announced: March 2009 ETA: Uh...
    AS Changes - Announced: July 2009 ETA: TBA
    Parry/Riposte - Announced: October 2009 ETA: ??? Did it! (April 2015)
    Perk Changes - Announced: October 2009 ETA: Right after server merge Started! (April 2015)
    Breed Change - Announced: November 2009 ETA: Hell freezing They did it!!! (Oct 2012)
    Beta Server - Announced: January 2010 ETA: Pigs Flying Did it! (Feb 2014)

  14. #14
    well crats are generally very OP in PvM atm.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    well crats are generally very OP in PvM atm.
    The funny thing is that Means is vehemently against they boss calms and the idea of such nanos, and quite frankl y I'm not fond of them either.

    What irritates me is just how dang easy it is to make a very strong toon with little effort as a Bureaucrat.

    1) XP buffs and regain perk makes you very desirable for teams.
    2) Access to strong charms in Ely ensures potentially huge damage when doing Hecklers in a legit group.
    3) Extremely easy to level in kite teams ... Everyone wants you in one, very few NTs charge level 110+ Bureaucrats for leveling, and with the +XP perks, 110-160 goes by horrendously fast.
    4) From 160 on, people will want you for the +XP/+SK/regain you an pro ide, completely disregarding how well setup you are. A crat in Miys that shoots her CDR and Dark Pistol and sends out her crat and only casually CCs the mission is just as valuable to most people as a fully-equipped Crat in Arith-based AI armor who charms regularly, nukes fanatically, and all that.... it's just that before 200, it's wasted effort.
    5) Once you get to 220, grab Carlo, grab the CEO Guardian, get your AAD in check, get your boss calm and all your init debuffs, and there you have it: one ready-made character that gets invited to every raid possible and can solo dungeons and instances that were never meant to be soloed.
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Saetos View Post
    5) Once you get to 220, grab Carlo, grab the CEO Guardian, get your AAD in check, get your boss calm and all your init debuffs, and there you have it: one ready-made character that gets invited to every raid possible and can solo dungeons and instances that were never meant to be soloed.
    pfft, thats all crats except me, im squishy like a week old strawberry
    Omutb - President - Ring of Destruction

    If you only knew the power of the Frosted Strawberry Poptart....

    "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; Or close the wall up with our English dead." - because Wales just isnt a country

    Chernobyl, providing the freshest bottled water since 1986, for that healthy green glow.

  17. #17
    I completely agree with the OP here, when I came back to the game around a month ago I used to stay in lft for hours. It is then when I decided simply no one is going to consider an agent and I started to organize the things I wanted to go to. Only then was I able to start taking part in pvm (being the organizer).

    And I can't blame the people for doing this. Bad DD, not viable FP'ing in SL.
    Because of how useless Aimed Shot is in pvm hell many agents stopped giving IP to Concealment. Why bother? for a one time 13k damage on a mob? so many IP? an agent that considers doing pvp will of course never consider it. (Unless it'll be a gank agent)
    Unlimited "Millerna" Rifleworks (220 / 30 / 70) Agent

  18. #18
    Crats simply have an abundantly useful toolset when it comes to PvM in modern day AO; e.g. all you need is damage, someone that resembles a tank and a doc for any PvM encounter. Crats have the damage, the only useful form of CC in PvM and xp buffs for your 1-220 kite/pocket teams. In the dumbed down state PvM is in currently, we rule supreme.
    The only toon I ever managed to get to 220 was my crat, and that was mostly due to 3+ crat stacking inf teams. That right there shows you what is wrong with PvM in AO, the fact that the ideal team for mission grinding is pretty much 6 crats as they outdo every other combination in sk/hr.

    PvM simply needs to be beefed up again, to the point where you actually -need- other professions. PNH is no longer needed. Neither are dedicated tanks in most encounters. Nor reflects. Agents no longer serve their purpose as fill'er'upper'. Fixer HoTs are a waste of NCU. MA crit buffs fall short compared to the amount of dmg we have since gotten from gear, and their personal dmg isn't very impressive either. Mochies last 8 hours, just log your alt and buff the team. Traders are completely useless since everyone is pretty much at the AR cap already, or barely benefits from it. (Pretty sure the AR added makes less than 1-2% difference on my crat). Etc, etc.
    Last edited by crattey; Jun 22nd, 2010 at 02:39:27.

  19. #19
    What AO really needs is a SL size new expansion.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    6 crats as they outdo every other combination in sk/hr.
    5 shades and a good crat would wreck it.
    Dagger 220/30/70 Shade // Attempted 219/24/?? Enforcer // Canidae 180/0/0 Adventurer // World 185/26/32 Meta-Physicist// Cramp 150/20/35 Engineer
    Ya wanna fix something - give RK mobs better xp, make RK matter again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamman View Post
    Give shades love or we will stop buffing people!!

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •