Changes to roots and snares.

[Genie]

Don that is just silly.
it doesnt mean that... first fo all they nerfed strafe running just this last patch.
second of all not every ranged players kite..
its theoretically possible to have the situation now tho where no melee ever kills a ranged.

That situation was also possible before. Melee profs can and have killed kiters all through the history of AO. Its anoying to be kited, but its not a certain death situation. With the root and snare changes, the rooter wont be able to spam roots anymore, so that will lessen the anoyance. Ranged profs cant attack while running, so if the kiter does nothing but root and run, he will most likely not be able to kill the melee profs anyway. He has to stand still to be able to unleash his full attack fast enough. Most melee profs have great defenses and healing and are hard to kill as they should be. Kiting professions do not.

Using the fixer as an example of an extremely anoying kiter, since he has great defenses and healing capabilities. Even though they were using their kiting abilities and runspeed to the fullest, I have still seen them killed by enfs, ma's, melee advs and keepers. This was fixers who were kiting AND fighting. Ofcourse setup plays a role, but if you are faced with a superior opponent, then you will loose whether you are ranged or melee. And then kiting is only a small part of why you loose.

[Moonbolt]

Don.... its all about gear and luck in that case...
the problem atm is that melee and ranged both have a runspeed cap of 2400 atm.
ranged have snares and roots.
both are with a gsf runnign at capped speed..
ranged need to stop for less then half a second to get an AS off and u can chain up perks while running.
ive been kited on my endgame equipped gear outdoors by a 219 fixer just cause he had exactly same runspeed a same i never managed to catch up and got killed 3 times in a row.
its a retarded game mechanic to have melee and ranged run at same runspeed ad give snares and roots to the ranged.
and seriusly??
where the hell do u gather that melee have better defences then ranged?.

Fixers with their 6k AAD, crats with nearly as much, docs with their insane healign and HP,
advies with their retarded evaes healing and coon, NTs isnt a kiting prof since they got capped on their nukes but they still have insane defences nowadays, soldiers with their 1:40 godmode vs melee classes, and yes even agents can survive tanking the so called OP enf 1hb/1he alpha self buffed if they are good.

so work on ur gear and ur play style if u have trouble vs melee endgame don.

[crattey]

Fixers with their 6k AAD, crats with nearly as much...

Dammit, I keep forgetting to put SWS XXVII on my crat to reach 6k static def

[Genie]

Don.... its all about gear and luck in that case...

All things being equal, it is mostly always about gear and luck and skill. My ranged profs dont have problems with melee profs. My melee profs dont have problems with ranged profs. Yes I have kited and killed, yes I have kited and been killed. I have been kited and been killed, I have been kited and killed.

I said I have seen fights where melee profs have beaten a kiting prof. I have also seen a kiting prof beat a melee prof. Both profs capping runspeed, both able to "straferun". Because seeing is believing, its hard to justify the claim that "melee profs cannot kill ranged profs"

I also said most melee profs have great defenses and healing and are hard to kill as they should be. Not that melee have BETTER defenses than ranged. But generally they have better defenses than the kiting profs have, maybe with the exception of the fixer. And with defenses I dont mean just static def value, but also massive health, healing, perks, etc.

[Moonbolt]

strafe run has baeen "fixed" so now runspeed over 2400 doesnt matter at all so no... theres a hughe difference now vs what it was.

and can u name those working defences that are so good that most melee classes have?

MAs?? with their DoF wich is nice sure.. but their healing is crappy and they are very vulerable to debuffs etc.

shades?? once again DoF is nice... bt they need to actually hit o to heal themselfs and the heals they have atm in pvp is quite crap.

Keepers?? yeah tbh keepers has awesoem defecnes... but they have a very hard time harming anyone with decent gear so it usually ends up with them running around and capping.

enfs?? enfs has one of the crappiest defences in game. low healing in comparison to HP, low def, biocoon that is ripped thru in 1 special, Hughe health that is a dissadventage in pvp mostly, and yeah hughe NR that actually works, we had an ability before to get out of most rough situations aswell cause we had great runspeed. with a 2400 cap on runspeed tho we dont anylonger since everyone runs at same runspeed.

melee advs?? they got very good defences but u dont see lots of them around anylonger cause yeah... ranged is a better option.

MPs?? if u wanna classify them as melee with the sheild... yeah they got good defences but nearly non existing offence in pvp.

i never stated that melee have never killed a ranged toon. i have said that there is a possibility within game mechanics to kite indefinately now wich imo is a serius issue for all the melee classes.
i have also said that snares and roots belongs to the ranged people in game atm wich only makes the kiting situation worse for melee.
tbh its quite simple maths, if 2 players have 2400 runspeed they run the same speed, if they have a 40 m gap between them and they are running in the same direction the gap is goin to be 40 m how long of a distance u run, the issue is when 1 of the players can shoot at the other from that distance while running and the other class cant. that is a very very very very very unfair adventage, and that class also has the snares and the roots, well it becomes a silly situation that needs a fix as soon as possible.

[-Klod-]

silly situation that needs a fix as soon as possible.

As long as it's just a theoretical fix (since you have pointed out only a theoretically problematic situation), I have no objection.

[Genie]

strafe run has baeen "fixed" so now runspeed over 2400 doesnt matter at all so no... theres a hughe difference now vs what it was.

But honestly, straferun is fixed for both melee and ranged right, so runspeed is now equal for both, just as it was before. There was nothing stopping either ranged or melee from straferunning before, unless Im missing something here.

Moon, Im not arguing with you personally here. I just dont think the problem is as severe as many feel it is, because I have experienced it differently.

Now with the new root changes, things will be different, better for the melee profs. I have also heard tell of nano recharge getting a rework, so running out of nano will also be something CC profs need to take into considderation.

[Moonbolt]

the theoretical problem becomes a real problem when a person decides to kite... not everyone does this tho thus its still a theroetical problem.

and Don it has always been somewhat a problem for MAs... why u hardly see any 220 MAs today, and keepers, and shades, enforces have had the luxury of rage with made us able to run faster then anyone earlier bar agents in FP enf.
this is very much an issue for the melee classes and has always been.
now it also includes the enfs in the problem since strafe running got "fixed".

im afraid that if the issue isnt discussed or raised the devs wont take it into any consideration when doin the rebalance and tbh its such a major flav that it should be fixed before the balance patch.

the suggestion i saw on fixer forums where they are goin to lower most classes runspeed and increase the RS cap, to let fixers utilise their high runspeed better is an indication that im not completly wrong, the nerfing of enforcers rage is another step in that direction.

noone can argue with that if ranged and melee has an equal runspeed, melee can be kited indefenately, its facts, when execution time etc on specials are 0.0001 seconds.

FC has stated that they will nerf kiting when they first started talking abotu the balance issues and they have agreed that melee has a dissadventage, especially with the sync issues we have atm.
and yet they release info where snares and roots are goin to get improved across the board, nerfing melee CC removal tools, making a ranged prof with snares and roots the fastest running profession and changing the only way that melee had to actually catch a kiter.
wich in my eyes makes them say that they are adressing a problem that has always been a problem for melee and then doin the exact oposite.
i dont think that strafe running was a good thing, it was a flaved game mechanic and it should have gotten fixed a looooooong time ago, but the whole concept of melee and ranged running at the exact same speed has been flaved since day 1 of AO and should have been adressed much earlier.

[-Klod-]

Dude, I just want working CC tools for my MP, I couldn't care less for you whiny, melee, love child bitches.

You got, oh, so much lately. It's outrageous how you people have nerve to actually whine about this stuff.

[Esqi]

How the situation is now is pretty irrelevant. The topic, and as a matter of fact the whole forum section, is about how the situation could or should be after the rebalancing.

After the rebalancing, run speed will be handled differently than it is now. We don't know how, but we know it's on the table. Other changes are gonna happen, like, if I'm not mistaken, a "reversed knockback" addition to Keepers' toolset.

The topic is how roots and snares can remain potent and useful tools in the light of the changes we already know are bound to happen, meaning local cooldowns, reduced duration and fast casting/recharge.

Edit : can't seem to find where I did read about reversed knockback. Might have imagined it.

Resistance's need to go or get drastically reduced, so long as the roots/snares are super short but always land and on success a CD is applied to target (cannot be affected by xyz nano again for 30seconds or 60).

[Josephina]

But honestly, straferun is fixed for both melee and ranged right, so runspeed is now equal for both, just as it was before. There was nothing stopping either ranged or melee from straferunning before, unless Im missing something here.

Melee professions (except keepers) are able to obtain more runspeed skill than ranged professions (excepting fixers and ranged adventurers), so most melee professions were able to straferun faster than most ranged professions and with straferunning melee could catch up to ranged.

[Notcrattey]

Spatial displacement, Tacky Hack, FM stims, advy boon, keeper aura, Rage, etc. should all be burnt with a cleansing fire. Innate immunity is silly if it goes up to these levels.

Roots should be used to regain a positional advantage, not to keep people in place for extended periods of time. Roots should have a very high chance of landing. They should have a short duration, as in, seconds. They should have a reasonable lockout period, think, 5-10 times their duration.

Immunities and removers should be weighted decisions that allows people to counter roots, not something that is innate or spammable. Temporary immunites are a good idea, for use when you feel a root incoming, and thus making the CC profession to blow his cooldown and allowing you to remain mobile in critical situations. Should have a very short duration, and long lockout. Removers should be limited to a point where you can't actually use them more often than the other guy can root you. And don't make people perk 10 points into it, just make it a nano/usable item or something. Mobility should be a core competence, not something you an opt out of. Look at all the retarded whining about SD, let's not go there again...

Bump for great justice.

[Moonbolt]

Spatial displacement, Tacky Hack, FM stims, advy boon, keeper aura, Rage, etc. should all be burnt with a cleansing fire. Innate immunity is silly if it goes up to these levels.

Roots should be used to regain a positional advantage, not to keep people in place for extended periods of time. Roots should have a very high chance of landing. They should have a short duration, as in, seconds. They should have a reasonable lockout period, think, 5-10 times their duration.

Immunities and removers should be weighted decisions that allows people to counter roots, not something that is innate or spammable. Temporary immunites are a good idea, for use when you feel a root incoming, and thus making the CC profession to blow his cooldown and allowing you to remain mobile in critical situations. Should have a very short duration, and long lockout. Removers should be limited to a point where you can't actually use them more often than the other guy can root you. And don't make people perk 10 points into it, just make it a nano/usable item or something. Mobility should be a core competence, not something you an opt out of. Look at all the retarded whining about SD, let's not go there again...

good post crattey.

[crattey]

good post crattey.

Aren't they all?

[Shrubberyman]

and yet they release info where snares and roots are goin to get improved across the board,

I must have missed something here, I was under the impression the nerfed duration and implementation of local cooldowns were precisely not that.

nerfing melee CC removal tools

There again, with the exception of rage with a local cooldown, I'm so far unaware of any announced CC resistance/removal nerf for melees. Hence this thread which is exactly about that, how should CC resistance/removal means be changed in the light of the changes brought to snares and roots (though I did not had specifically melees in mind when I made the OP).

...making a ranged prof with snares and roots the fastest running profession

As annoying as it can be, you gotta admit it's perfectly in line with the fixer template, hit'n run and movement hampering. I would say it's an acceptable deal considering they are gonna loose some firepower (bye AS) and their weakness to nano-based attacks is getting even more obvious (loss of AAD on NR checking perks). Fixers might just be the one prof requiring something else than shere weapon power and run speed to take down (apart if the weapon owner also has MR ofc...)

and the loss of and changing the only way that melee had to actually catch a kiter.

Let's not talk about strafe running any more, it's gone and for the best. It was at worst an exploit and at best the silliest "live and let live" move FC ever did. Now, beyond the root grafts which in themselves will require a discussion among the devs to decide if they undergo a change of some kind, local solutions have been announced, like the "reversed knockback" for keepers, the changes to RS caps and availability and such. I'm pretty confident melee profs will have means of getting in range of their oppoent, with the possible exception of fixers. Will it happen before the bulk of the balancing process, I don't think so : run speed, CC, stims, removers and immunities are all interlinked and changing one will call for changing the rest at the same time. Just be glad you ain't a keeper in the midbetween I guess.

wich in my eyes makes them say that they are adressing a problem that has always been a problem for melee and then doin the exact oposite.

It's not totally wrong, but if the present changes are akin to a nerf for melees, they at least prove FC is looking on this matter, and if everything goes right, the situation just got worst to become better in the medium/long term.

the whole concept of melee and ranged running at the exact same speed has been flaved since day 1 of AO and should have been adressed much earlier.

I can agree to an extent, like I agreed with what kink said, but with melee RS > ranged RS, ranged CC tools should have been stronger or melee CC resistances/removers should have been weaker, or ranged defence should have been stronger, or melee offence weaker. All in all, I'm not sure the situation would have been much different by now.

[capncaveman]

actually I have an idea. (Speaking of roots) if an omni attacks an omni or clan v. clan at a tower site, they should get a sided flag so they can have the effects of being tabbed/sb/ aoe /root.
since rolling/or using omni (for instance)org just to not be quickly tabbed or effected by sided effects is a game mechanic issue/exploit . I think it should have a 4 hour flag assc. with it, essentially making them clan/omni and subject to the effects at least on a temporary basis

couldn't find a better place to post this

[Gunfytr]

actually I have an idea. (Speaking of roots) if an omni attacks an omni or clan v. clan at a tower site, they should get a sided flag so they can have the effects of being tabbed/sb/ aoe /root.
since rolling/or using omni (for instance)org just to not be quickly tabbed or effected by sided effects is a game mechanic issue/exploit . I think it should have a 4 hour flag assc. with it, essentially making them clan/omni and subject to the effects at least on a temporary basis

couldn't find a better place to post this

Too many AOE attacks goin on....everyone would end up cross flagged.

[Koizumi]

enfs?? enfs has one of the crappiest defences in game. low healing in comparison to HP, low def, biocoon that is ripped thru in 1 special, Hughe health that is a dissadventage in pvp mostly, and yeah hughe NR that actually works, we had an ability before to get out of most rough situations aswell cause we had great runspeed. with a 2400 cap on runspeed tho we dont anylonger since everyone runs at same runspeed.

i srsly lol'd...
Oh poor poor enfs .

[Shrubberyman]

So, if I have been reading all of this right, the consensus would be :

- that pretty much no one opposes innate immunities being nerfed to hell and back
- that roots/snares must be short, even very short, with a but mostly unbreakable/unremoveable
- that the nerf to stims, removers, and roots/snares will need to adjust to the new policy on RS

Anything else I missed?

[Genie]

An alternative solution to roots having a cooldown would be to give the target root immunity for a few seconds after the root runs out. This way the CC prof can root several targets, but unable to spam a single target with roots. The ability to root multiple targets is often essential to a CC profs survival.