Enfs and Attack rating

[Koizumi]

That's fine trolling but the fact remains that you aren't actually making suggestions or proposing anything.

Im sorry for actually falling for your/kink's troll taunts and lowering myself enough to anwser you in the way you would understand.
But all right, here goes a suggestion, my only suggestion to enf's OP toolset is:
- nerf NR and take away all % root resists from enfos...thats as much as i(me as in crat/nt/trader) need to have at least a LITTLE chance against an enforcer.
Not enough for others imo, but the least fair balancing pop that would help anyone have ANY chance against an enf.
Some time ago, when i was still in an all-out nanoskills setup, some enf countered a 45% NR check nano seven times in a row...others did similiarly.

If enfos as OP as you claim, I'm surprised you haven't your rolled one yet to add to your collection of 'flavour of the month' professions?

Yet another magical info that you took out of a blue?
Enfs currently are in a state that resembles an NT fighting a fixer while the 40% caps were still there...why would i bother for such an easy mode?
I never went for the cookie cutters, never will.
ALL of my characters were made to either counter an OP professions (trader vs NT, NT vs enf) OR to help my team in fights (crat/nt).

[Obtena]

Great ... nerf NR, because that's the source of people's problems with enfo? And you propose that how? I mean, yuou can just say 'nerf X" but that's not a suggestion ... or it's a stupid one because you aren't actually proposing anything here. If NR is nerfed, it's because of some itemization changes (i.e. fixing HHAB) which will affect everyone. Same with our huge evades. A fix there requires FC to nerf items, not some enforcer specific thing. Enfos will still run ragged all over you because your roots are only going to last a few seconds instead of minutes and have a cooldown in the new scheme ... or you didn't account for that did you with all your infinite foresight.

I see where you are going with this really. You want a nuetered Rage because you think you need to nerf other people's tools to compete with them on your toons instead of making suggestions to improve your situation. That's funny really, considering you have two of the most nuisance profs vs. enfos at your disposal, which makes me wonder if you just QQing because of your lack of ability instead of some percieved OP'ed Enfo statistic that you can't pinpoint. I think your expectations are a bit unaligned with the direction the game is going but that's OK, I want nuetered DOF/LIMBER too. Of course, I didn't make a whining post about that because i'm realistic and not selfish and understand the position other professions are in and why it's like it is.

[Gatester]

Its not a viable measure of prowess.. kill/death ratio is. Ideally. BUt this is a thread about AR. All I've said is that we really cant perk and mangle that many people (practically, very few) and NOT that often.

This is reflected in kill counts.

Some professions, especially ranged or hotswappers, are getting very high kill counts because of what was mentioned by sultry. It's not their offensive abilities, its their damage farming. Now, I know a soldier or fixer can get quite a large sum of kills per BS round thanks to an AS+FA+Burst combo, but that does not mean their prowess is high. They are simply more likely to get over 51% of anyones health nearly instantly where an enforcer has an alpha. Check the 170 ranged adventurer in my signature for a pitiful offense with high damage farming for the best example.

Enforcers cannot farm damage for kill counts and even if we could easily land every perk we had I do not believe we could out-farm ranged specials or an AS+SA hotswap. The only way enforcer offense will be balanced, however, is if we can actually have a choice of setups that can kill any profession without the use of Mongo Rage, which is currently not the case and a kill/death ratio would do little to determine this.

/me points @ crats

Of all the times I forget the damn crats lol. Crats die to regular hits which makes enforcers a very bad opponent for crats to run up against when their toolset is in recharge. In fact, they were one of the only professions I was killing as a 210 enforcer because I could literally beat them to death.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Great ... nerf NR, because that's the source of people's problems with enfo? And you propose that how? I mean, yuou can just say 'nerf X" but that's not a suggestion ... or it's a stupid one because you aren't actually proposing anything here. If NR is nerfed, it's because of some itemization changes (i.e. fixing HHAB) which will affect everyone. Same with our huge evades. A fix there requires FC to nerf items, not some enforcer specific thing. Enfos will still run ragged all over you because your roots are only going to last a few seconds instead of minutes and have a cooldown in the new scheme ... or you didn't account for that did you with all your infinite foresight.

I see where you are going with this really. You want a nuetered Rage because you think you need to nerf other people's tools to compete with them on your toons instead of making suggestions to improve your situation. That's funny really, considering you have two of the most nuisance profs vs. enfos at your disposal, which makes me wonder if you just QQing because of your lack of ability instead of some percieved OP'ed Enfo statistic that you can't pinpoint. I think your expectations are a bit unaligned with the direction the game is going but that's OK, I want nuetered DOF/LIMBER too. Of course, I didn't make a whining post about that because i'm realistic and not selfish and understand the position other professions are in and why it's like it is.

Nerfing is part of what makes games have longevity.
Saying make me more powerful is what causes POWERCREEP, which is a known factor in contributing to many games which have been around a long time decrease in popularity.

Case in point: Anarchy online. How many people say: "yee haw! 220/70/30, now, all i have to do is farm my endgame items to be competitive"

Back when AO was AO, reaching the higher levels meant more power. Even when SL came out, it was the same thing. If you're 217, compared to your opponent who was 214, your level was a significant advantage, but it wasn't game breaking. Now, it's much different. If a 220 is fighting a 217, it's not even a match. Better yet, If a 220 endgamer is fighting a fresh faced 220 dinger, it's a blowout.

You get the point. Asking for a nerf is sensible. Asking for "MOAR AR!" "MOAR BUTTONS" "MOAR EVADES!" is uh, unproductive in the long term.

I do however agree that the request should be justified.

[Obtena]

There are many other ways to accomplish balance without nerfing everything. And to the point, when a significant portion of your stats come from gear like it does in AO, that nerf has to be on gear, not the actual stats of the character. I don't think that's going to happen in AO, simply because of the work involved and the scaling of the items as you level. you can't just nerf endgame stuff and leave everything else as it is.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

There are many other ways to accomplish balance without nerfing everything. And to the point, when a significant portion of your stats come from gear like it does in AO, that nerf has to be on gear, not the actual stats of the character. I don't think that's going to happen in AO, simply because of the work involved and the scaling of the items as you level. you can't just nerf endgame stuff and leave everything else as it is.

I'd say start with nanos that are clearly over the top.
*cough*
rage
spin nanoweb
CH
Slowdown
Defeat righteousness
CB
borrow reflect
Drains

[Koizumi]

If NR is nerfed, it's because of some itemization changes (i.e. fixing HHAB) which will affect everyone.

Because there are totally no enforcer specific items/nanos that give enfs sh**load of NR

I see where you are going with this really. You want a nuetered Rage because you think you need to nerf other people's tools to compete with them on your toons instead of making suggestions to improve your situation.

Making suggestions to improve MY situation only makes sense when enforcers are an extreme problem only for me, not for everyone

That's funny really, considering you have two of the most nuisance profs vs. enfos at your disposal

Ahah....ahahhahahah......LOL!
Are you really serious?
WHICH ones? Tell me please...NT maybe? The very NT that (confirm with other nt's if you want, i already did and this also applies to myself too) usually runs away at the sight of an enforcer because in most cases any action against an enforcer results in an NT's death?
Or maybe a crat? Hm? For an enf?
Or what? Trader? Good one....
Maybe MA? Not more than any other having specials.

because i'm realistic and not selfish and understand the position other professions are in and why it's like it is.

Docs, traders, nt's, agents, mp's, crats.
Do you see me asking for an upgrade to crat roots/debuffs, by making them f.ex 25% NRcheck?
Because i understand other people's position when encountering an enf, i am suggesting working on the root of the problem, not a band aid fix for only one profession...

borrow reflect

not anymore :/

[Moonbolt]

respoce to Koizumi....
I got a 220 endgame enf with just about anything i can get for it..
I have a 220/18/64 trader with only betas in......
theres a BIG difference to when those are good in a BS....

if there is few players on the BS and i find my trader singled out alot and gang raped over and over i log my endgame enf cause hes good vs small crowds... when theres maybe max 10 people on each side of the BS..
when theres more then that the trader def outshines the enforcer by far, even tho i have crap gear on it compared to enf.
if u had any real understanding of the enforcer profession u would know how to anoy the crap out of them in BS ......

usually i start off fighting in BS by hiding in the crowd and trying to divest everyone i can tab..
if someone targets me i target them and Shutdown skills on them and try to land plunder on them aswell and then just go on to land divest on every one around... if the enforcer doesnt spot u before u got a divest on him hes gonna loose his rage in 30 seconds or less.... usually alot less cause whats the likelyhood that he refreshed rage the second u drain him.
once rage is gone enforcers are down to 2050ish NR wish is less teh most other professions and u can drain teh living crap out of him..... also u can always try to time SDS just about when u think the enf will start hitting his perk buttons when he rushes for u ... that would give u more then well enough time to drain him if u manage to land that right.
also u have a NBG + GTH option when he rushes u.. that would let u survive the alpha and give u some spare time to land ur drains.
if u cant handle it 100% of the time good ... then the game is working as intended.
if u dont land ur drain and dont start kiting the enf to stay out of range from him untill u land a drain then u need to practise on how u play.
3250 NR is supposed to be hard to land stuff thru.... that is teh enforcer way to survive vs caster.
and no it isnt that much more then what some NTs, Docs and some other classes has..
MAs can spike their NR to about 4k for 20 secs every minute but u dont see anyone complaining about that.
u guys need to understand that the rage ur calling OP is a 30 sec buff...... it needs to be refreshed all the time or it wont be running... sure an enf can use a lower rage but 2800 NR isnt that hard to land stuff thru and when the second drain lands he cant use the lower rage either.
and he def cant hit u w/o MR.

learn to fight enfs and they arnt that impossible.....
I told a NT friend to pop NBG as soon as the enf gets up to him and absorb the alpha with it while he stacks up CB and SBoA ... once he got 2 CBs and SBoA on the enf he can move out of range and do /disco unless the enf has MoR up since he cant rage out of SBoA.
My NT friend replied with .... but my nano pool will go empty!!!
so what?+ the enf is rooted down and cant just break free.... and if for some reason he breaks free ur nano regen has surely given u enough nano to cast 1 more SBoA on him cause u already got 2 CBs stacked it will land on first try.
an enf w/o his alpha up isnt very dangerous. so learn to soak up the first initial chock of dmg and u will most likely win.

crying enfs are OP is still a matter of how u play and ur poor understanding of the profession..
the ONLY prof that has 0 chance vs enf is MPs.... sheild MP doesnt have enough spike dmg to kill us and if they get even close we can just kite their pets....
and Bow MPs doesnt have enough def to avoid getting splatted by the massive alpha.
All other professions can kill enforcers.. yes they might be very topugh oponents for some classes like crats.. they can still win and a fight vs a good crat usually means the enf has used all his defences and his offences and came pretty damn close to dying anyway - look at how cratritus doin his pvp and yes hes harder to beat then sterva for me.

MAs learn to kite when u see slowdown hit ur NCU.. w/o slowdown on u the enfs cant perk u except with 2 perks on a 1 min recharge and 1 40 sec special.. those 3 attacks u can easily outheal even with ur current heals and ur gonna be alot tougher once the new nanos comes into play.

Ranged advies well ur killable with MR .. not w/o i been thinking of goin a full out AR setup just to be able to perk u w/o MR... but not sure i could get high enough AR to perk u thru limber even then - usually a MR alpha is enough to bring them down tho... its a whole different story with melee advs tho since they have so much more healht so they cant be alphaed before they get a heal off and they win.

docs can easily survive that first perk alpha..... problems docs have with enfs tho are that they have a very hard time to dmg the enf. docs with the AS pistol or AS bow do an OK job to hurt us but the DoTs gets removed by rage except C strain i think it is and they cant land malp.
only reason enfs can kill docs is basically cause of init debuffs and stuns in the alpha.
the same goes for agent... tho if the agent survives teh first alpha.... the enf is dead ... agents have well enough DD to bring down 3x the enforcers health and defences before the alpha recharges.

keepers.... tbh most keepers i meet in BS and in duels are crap,,
i have met a few that i just cant kill tho ... like piggy and Jahusator etc.
they have to much def for me to perk them except with 2 perks and with them having about same healing and almost same HP as enfs its way to few perks to manage to land on them to get them down low hp and keep em there.
and they will survive an MR alpha and kill me before i get the chance to MR again.
once again tho i been thinking of trying out a full AR setup and that prolly wuold le tme kill keepers while i would loose vs other profs..

a good soldier will win 100% in a 1 vs 1 with an enf atleast now since both gets capped runspeed so easy so that the enf cant outrun the sold.
before it was opssible to kite the AMS and come back and alpha the sold when his AMS was down but since strafe running doesnt work anylonger it isnt possible now.

fixers... omg how i hate good fixers...... their current def is just an abomination and they should have a friggen negateve healing not 4 stackable HoTs..
1 perk every min and SA every 40 secs isnt enough to keep them down from max health a few seconds... a good fixer can easily tank my MR alpha toe to toe... and in worste case if not fully geared i have been kited by a gimp 219 fixer...... until i died cause i had nooooo way fo catching him... root grafts gets broken imediatly and they are immune to my fear and to keep up with them i need to refresh rage every seconds wich require me to stop longer time then they have to press FA/AS/burst.


hmmm when i think about the professions i got a close to 100% win rate vs i come to think of engies/MPs/Docs... and i can include crats here cause there are few crats good enough to gimme a run for the money.
wich profs i have almost 0 chance vs at endgame are soldiers shades fixers keepers.
the rest of the professions i have pretty balanced fights with the top pvpers of those professions.

look at the ratio... theres 4 professions that i will loose vs. there is 4 professions that i will win against. and there is 4 professions that im fairly equal to.

u cant get friggen more balanced then that.

so stop complaining about that enforcers are OP...
ur just a bunch of whiny kids that doesnt wanna loose any fight.

[Brofist]

Just dropping in to say that certain people in this thread need to start using some punctuation, and stop short handing everything.

[Obtena]

Because there are totally no enforcer specific items/nanos that give enfs sh**load of NR

OK, list some, nerf them, and see where that gets you. I'm wearing a total of one enforcer specific items that give NR, which is tradeskilled from a general item that gives NR to everyone. I guess your knowledge of the enfo profession is working overtime for you.

As for rage, I addressed that, you ignored it. You're drowning in your own trolling. You just want to nerf other players tools because you seem to lack ability to PVP against them. That's not a problem with enfo's toolset, it's you and the professions you have.

[Mountaingoat]

You just want to nerf other players tools because you seem to lack ability to PVP against them. That's not a problem with enfo's toolset, it's you and the professions you have.

Lets give someone Blackmane's Stat buffer. If you can't beat em you just need to l2play. Let's bring back stun procs and old GTH too, since obviously people just needed to l2play against them.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

As for rage, I addressed that, you ignored it. You're drowning in your own trolling. You just want to nerf other players tools because you seem to lack ability to PVP against them. That's not a problem with enfo's toolset, it's you and the professions you have.

This is trollworthy.

NR on rage is nothing to quibble about. It's a huge effing boost. rage is enf specific (and agent FP enf) and it is as big a boost as DOF is.

So, yea, since when did enfs become the NR evaders?

[Moonbolt]

since day 1 in AO...

[Armus]

This is trollworthy.

NR on rage is nothing to quibble about. It's a huge effing boost. rage is enf specific (and agent FP enf) and it is as big a boost as DOF is.

So, yea, since when did enfs become the NR evaders?

There is ONE god *amned class IG that has a chance to sometimes resist the stupendously overpowered debuffs and other nanos flying around left and right and you are complaining about that one class??

RETARDED

[sultryvoltron]

Great ... nerf NR, because that's the source of people's problems with enfo? And you propose that how? I mean, yuou can just say 'nerf X" but that's not a suggestion ... or it's a stupid one because you aren't actually proposing anything here. If NR is nerfed, it's because of some itemization changes (i.e. fixing HHAB) which will affect everyone. Same with our huge evades. A fix there requires FC to nerf items, not some enforcer specific thing. Enfos will still run ragged all over you because your roots are only going to last a few seconds instead of minutes and have a cooldown in the new scheme ... or you didn't account for that did you with all your infinite foresight.

I see where you are going with this really. You want a nuetered Rage because you think you need to nerf other people's tools to compete with them on your toons instead of making suggestions to improve your situation. That's funny really, considering you have two of the most nuisance profs vs. enfos at your disposal, which makes me wonder if you just QQing because of your lack of ability instead of some percieved OP'ed Enfo statistic that you can't pinpoint. I think your expectations are a bit unaligned with the direction the game is going but that's OK, I want nuetered DOF/LIMBER too. Of course, I didn't make a whining post about that because i'm realistic and not selfish and understand the position other professions are in and why it's like it is.

The future of Rage in AO should be (and sadly, probably isn't) entirely hinged on how roots and snares change in the future. Changes to Rage should follow a few axioms:

1) CC professions should be able to CC you, given the short duration of future roots and snares (particularly crats).
2) The CC should be powerful (read long) enough to provide a strategic advantage.
3) Rage should be the counter to that strategic advantage.
4) The advantages provided by CC and Rage should have similar lockout:duration ratios.
5) Rage should not be chain-castable often enough to eliminate the advantage of roots and snares completely.
6) Rage should have it's duration increased, but should have some "downtime" that gives a window of vulnerability.


These are my opinions after several lengthy discussions with other AO players on both ends of the Rage/Root discussion.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

There is ONE god *amned class IG that has a chance to sometimes resist the stupendously overpowered debuffs and other nanos flying around left and right and you are complaining about that one class??

RETARDED

lol.

no you twit, the point is that enf is the one prof you need CONC perks to land on to kill, otherwise it's like hitting your favorite UFC champ with a flyswatter until he cowers to your physical prowess. gunna happen anytime soon? sure boss.

[Kinkstaah]

The future of Rage in AO should be (and sadly, probably isn't) entirely hinged on how roots and snares change in the future. Changes to Rage should follow a few axioms:

1) CC professions should be able to CC you, given the short duration of future roots and snares (particularly crats).
2) The CC should be powerful (read long) enough to provide a strategic advantage.
3) Rage should be the counter to that strategic advantage.
4) The advantages provided by CC and Rage should have similar lockout:duration ratios.
5) Rage should not be chain-castable often enough to eliminate the advantage of roots and snares completely.
6) Rage should have it's duration increased, but should have some "downtime" that gives a window of vulnerability.


These are my opinions after several lengthy discussions with other AO players on both ends of the Rage/Root discussion.

3) and 5) contradict each other.
Nice logic

[Kinkstaah]

lol, tried ma, fixer, or keeper lately?

we're lucky if we can make a kill by round end. Sometiems it takes two trips to decon before we've wracked up enough dmg on a toon to make a kill.

Fixers get a lot, lot, lot more kills than enfs do. MA's do as well. Keepers are probably in the same boat as Enforcers, as their damage is on similar cooldowns.

Dont play dumb, you know perfectly well that OP applies to enforcer not only in 1 vs. 1 encounter but also in a 1 vs. 2/3/4/sometimes_more.
Following your thinking, LE nukes are totally NOT retarded and NOT op'ed....because who cares about 1v1 pvp, right?

NT nukes aren't really that OP.

Enfs in pvp keep Banjo in their hand, meanwhile eat burritos held in second hand, and THATS why they never ever ever land any regulars! Also, due to burrito/banjo combo, they have such a low AR that their perks land even less than 10% of times.
Wow, another enf mystery revealed

I never said enfs cant kill crats, I said their defence through evades makes sense because they arent immune to death.

From what many people see here, this situation perfectly describes you.
How about YOU post some facts/reality to prove something instead of just popping 'nah nah nah' enfos arent OP, they're actually sooooo gimp.

I posted my own stats in the start of this thread, perhaps you should have a look there..

Im sorry for actually falling for your/kink's troll taunts and lowering myself enough to anwser you in the way you would understand.
But all right, here goes a suggestion, my only suggestion to enf's OP toolset is:
- nerf NR and take away all % root resists from enfos...thats as much as i(me as in crat/nt/trader) need to have at least a LITTLE chance against an enforcer.
Not enough for others imo, but the least fair balancing pop that would help anyone have ANY chance against an enf.

NT already should win vs any enf, an enf rooted is completely stupid given the duration of roots in this game. Traders can definitely beat enforcers. The only class that really can't do much is the crat.

[quoteYet another magical info that you took out of a blue?
Enfs currently are in a state that resembles an NT fighting a fixer while the 40% caps were still there...why would i bother for such an easy mode?
I never went for the cookie cutters, never will.
ALL of my characters were made to either counter an OP professions (trader vs NT, NT vs enf) OR to help my team in fights (crat/nt).[/QUOTE]

They arent, because most real pvper's can counter the enf alpha or ignore it entirely (as it wont hit them).

Some professions, especially ranged or hotswappers, are getting very high kill counts because of what was mentioned by sultry. It's not their offensive abilities, its their damage farming. Now, I know a soldier or fixer can get quite a large sum of kills per BS round thanks to an AS+FA+Burst combo, but that does not mean their prowess is high.

Enforcers cannot farm damage for kill counts and even if we could easily land every perk we had I do not believe we could out-farm ranged specials or an AS+SA hotswap. The only way enforcer offense will be balanced, however, is if we can actually have a choice of setups that can kill any profession without the use of Mongo Rage, which is currently not the case and a kill/death ratio would do little to determine this.

While these 'classes that cant kill anyone solo but farm damage more than enfs' are doing damage to opponents, enfs are running around chasing them to get in range, or sitting around doing nothing while perks are recharge, or they were dodged a minute ago, etc.

This does count for something.

Of all the times I forget the damn crats lol. Crats die to regular hits which makes enforcers a very bad opponent for crats to run up against when their toolset is in recharge. In fact, they were one of the only professions I was killing as a 210 enforcer because I could literally beat them to death.

Evades and defence in general should mitigate damage, not make the person immune. Enforcers do, always, inevitably die. Crats evades mitigate defence. The only really OP defence in this game is stuff like ranged advy, doc (vs some), and any class unperkable with some kind of healing because their defence is indefinite.

But this thread is about Enforcer AR, which as I said before, is about enough to kill about 1/2 of the professions, once a minute. Most of these classes aren't even in the BS right now, though. So killing the half of professions that arent actually in the BS anymore is somehow OP? OK.

[Moonbolt]

lol.

no you twit, the point is that enf is the one prof you need CONC perks to land on to kill, otherwise it's like hitting your favorite UFC champ with a flyswatter until he cowers to your physical prowess. gunna happen anytime soon? sure boss.

U are still talking about a TL 5 enforcer from a keepers weiv point.... come back and talk about a toolset used for every TL when u can speak about every TL.

[Gatester]

Evades and defence in general should mitigate damage, not make the person immune. Enforcers do, always, inevitably die. Crats evades mitigate defence. The only really OP defence in this game is stuff like ranged advy, doc (vs some), and any class unperkable with some kind of healing because their defence is indefinite.

But this thread is about Enforcer AR, which as I said before, is about enough to kill about 1/2 of the professions, once a minute. Most of these classes aren't even in the BS right now, though. So killing the half of professions that arent actually in the BS anymore is somehow OP? OK.

The problem with enforcer vs crat fights is that while being close to a perfectly balanced encounter, the enforcer toolsets currently counter too much of the crat toolset. I would imagine that crats being able to actually CC enforcers more effectively and a defense check on the damage portion of Bring the Pain would be enough to balance out the encounter.

People complain about three aspects of enforcers. Their defense is too high, which makes no sense considering the only profession that cannot viably kill us is the pure support profession, doctor. Their offense is too high, which runs into issues of whether an offense is too high because you actually die to it (yes I laugh everytime I see "you killed me, you should be nerfed to this level because then I wouldn't die to you"), or it is too strong because it prevents you from taking action (aka chain stunning). The other is that they are as hard to kill as a fixer or adventurer, which is a problem because it is true. I have tried running down an enforcer on all of my characters, its endless to the point of ridiculous.

No profession should have an indefinate ability to run away unless FC wants to make that one of the key features of fixers ONLY. Never killing a profession because you can never catch them is just as OP as never killing a profession because you simply cannot do enough damage to them. The only difference is that an enforcer cannot kill you while he is running away, but does that really matter if they only have to fight you for 5 seconds out of 60 to 150? Yes, people who call enforcers OP as a whole are idiots, and these cries for massive nerfs are just selfish requests to let them almost always beat other professions, yet enforcers do have OP aspects just as any other profession has, so there are justified complaints in the forums.