New Keeper Nano Changes

[NoGoal]

Just thought I would add : seems like Keepers are getting more survivability and more options to be in range of their target, and ok, a nice 4k/5k PvP damage every 15s. But there's still place for improvement in the offence departement, don't get why ME's Fury is so much subpar compared with 2he's wrath.

they will be tweaked later and, like kintaii said, more will be added later.

Might be reading it wrong, but I don't see anything hinting at any tradeoff...

i think that bitnik just don't know how our fury line works.

Anyway, still if I read it right, we will be having endgame keepers with 22% (from nano, so, 42% with graft and bracers?) reflect
Nice haul.

no, reflects will now be in the regular reflects line so no stacking.

[XenonDe]

no, reflects will now be in the regular reflects line so no stacking.

urgs. I overread that. That makes the line near useless.
13% reflect + Watch Ward or Imminence beats the 9% extra reflects.
Even before change it was 19% selfed reflects.

Well I suppose if people lack a graft or need their rechargers and a second keeper is in team and the team needs reflects more then wards, it has a use.

Edit:
Before it seems like a whinepost entirely.. Nice, nasty changes alltogether.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Holy crap im excited!

[Keldon]

hmm, did anyone else notice that the dmg aura will scale based on the level of the target it hits.

I guess the days of having your soldier and keeper friends help you PL your lowbies is a thing of the past.

I know I personally would not roll an alt if I could not just blast through the first 100ish levels using the extra 257 damage the two of them together provide.

[Dancingrage]

I'm definitely interested in what, if any, ME perkline will look like, since MPs once had a lot of support from weapons for that style, and zero buffing for it in any way (no symbs MPs could use have ME and it's a wrecker being shining in the head).

[NoGoal]

I'm not sure if MPs should get another supported weapon line. It will hurt them more than helping imho. Only adding the perk line could be ok I guess. It would be better if they had a few strongly supported weapons than low support for a lot of them.

If FC had to support all MPs weapons you'd need support for bow, 2hb, 2he, me, 1hb, pistol, T&S, etc. And it's not like ME has many good weapons kyr and beast ones aside.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

If the new reflects don't stack with the graft, I'm really disapointed. But, at the same time, thats just means you can explore other options when reflects used to be the best option.

Still is goign to throw a wrench into my plans though.

[Dancingrage]

MPs have good weapons for MP for lower TLs such as the Jupiter Aegis and Gift of Jupiter, then there's a very obscure ME shield called the Bio-Energy shield which pretty much mimics the Jupiter series of weapons only up to ql200 and adding evade close with it.

I've been a proponent of adding RE and ME to the Support symbiants mainly because of this, doctor's access to RE through perks and weapon support, and this really gives me reason to want to push harder since Keepers will now want an option to get more ME in the event they want to go that route.

[erozc]

Now fingers crossed that the Shade nemesis nano, when overhauled, will completely wipe a Keeper's NCU and cast 2 minute NSD on them so we won't be missing out on exciting posts on the topic.

On topic: Very interesting changes. It's gonna be a job to keep up this rate with all other professions as well!

[Koizumi]

now fingers crossed that the shade nemesis nano, when overhauled, will completely wipe a keeper's ncu and cast 2 minute nsd on them so we won't be missing out on exciting posts on the topic.

oh please do so!!!!1

[Original]

Unicorn!!!!!! With a horn!

[Righteous]

If the new reflects don't stack with the graft, I'm really disapointed. But, at the same time, thats just means you can explore other options when reflects used to be the best option.

Still is goign to throw a wrench into my plans though.

It's not "graft" it would need to be stackable with, it'd be soldier's Protection: Reflection Shields line, that is, RRFE. Soooo not a problem.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

It's not "graft" it would need to be stackable with, it'd be soldier's Protection: Reflection Shields line, that is, RRFE. Soooo not a problem.

Sorry, your post isn't perfectly clear to me, lets get this straight:

The keeper aura will stack with graft (aka 13% + keeper reflects= somewhere between about 25-32% reflects self buffed),

BUT,

it WON'T stack with, for example PNS so the 28% will override the 23% and the team will have a total reflect of 28%.

But, this doesn't make sence, because the graft IS the same line as RRFE and PNS: PNS overrides RRFE, and RRFE overrides LDSE, which means that either LDSE will override the keeper aura, OR, the keeper aura will override the LDSE.

So, to get this all straight: what I'm asking is this: Will the new keeper aura STACK with LDSE?

If it doesn't it's a waste of programming effort, if it does, it may be a bit overpowered.

The reality is, is that no keeper will ever give up 13% reflects+another obvious defence, AKA, immi, or ward with special blockers, in favour of 20ish% reflects, it just doesn't make sense. Therefore, either the reflects should be made comparable to the benefit of having 13% AND another type of defence, OR, the reflects should (possibly) be toned down slightly and be made to stack with soldier line reflect buffs.

Thats my 2 cents on this.

[Koizumi]

because the graft IS the same line as RRFE

Not sure i get what u mean here but isnt it possible to just put it in stacking order above ldse and below rrfe?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Not sure i get what u mean here but isnt it possible to just put it in stacking order above ldse and below rrfe?

yes. But, that is what i'm afraid of.

Ok, I just reviewed the document, and, it looks like the reflect nano will reflect a minimum of 15%, and a maximum of 22%

The amount reflected must interpolate between these values, so, lets just say, for example at level 150 the amount reflected is 20%.

prior to nano balance, we currently have 13%. Right? So, the net benefit is only 7%.

7% is a greater benefit from what we had before, that IS true, (for example, at 150 I can cast only a 4% reflect nano, 5% at 170.)

So, what I'm asking is: is the 7% extra reflect enough of a benefit (because we can still use 13% regardless of whether the keeper nano is used or not) to outweight the benefit of Ward, with 1 special blocker and 1 normal blocker.

Thats what I'm getting at.

So, yes, koiz, IF barrier replaces 13%, then no problem, but IMO, it'll still suffer the same fate as what barrier is currently: nobody uses it. Why use 19% and no AAD/AAO if you can use 13% and 90 AAD/30AAO?

Why use 19% refelcts if you can use 13% and 1spec+1norm blocker every 40 seconds?

You see what I'm getting at?

What I'm saying is that the EXTRA 6-7% reflects we'd get from using barrier won't outweigh the benefit of blocks/extra def/off.

Now, I'm not saying that we should have all the tricks in the book, but, I am saying, if you're trying to fix barrier, you might as well make it useful, or, it's just not going to get used, same as it is now.

The main problems with reflects are:

1. reflects don't reduce damage on (over)capping hits.
2. reflects don't work vs nukes and I don't think they work vs doctor dots (could be wrong here).
3. reflects reduce the amount of damage taken on perks, BUT, they don't stop you from being perkable, which is a significant disadvantage vs AAD.

Basically, considering the benefit analysis against, for example an 11 second AS (nothing else considered)

If guardian ward refreshes every 44 seconds, and an Agent can AS every 11 seconds, approximately 1/4 AS's will be blocked by Ward spec blocker.

So, lets just assume for a moment that the 13% will not reduce the AS damage.

Barrier would have to reduce damage by 25% to make it match up with guardian ward in this case.

If 13% IS included, 75%*(1-13%)= 65.25% of damage gets through, if we use graft+ward.

That means barrier would need to reduce damage by 35% to be a comparable damage mitigation system compared to AS damage.

Where reflects will be better than ward is where damage is slower, comes in lower doses, with zero capping hits.

lets say in a fight vs a MA, with 20% crits, and crits hit for 1500 damage, and normals hit for 600 damage over 1 minute, the ma will hit for 30*(0.2*1500+0.8*600)= 23400 dmg

with 19% reflects 23400*(1-0.19)= 18954 dmg
with 13% reflects and 1 normal blocker every 44 seconds (1 blocked hit weighted to crit/normal) 60s/44s =1. 36 blockers per min. 1.36*0.2= 0.27 crits blocked, 1.09 normals blocked.

23400 total potential dmg - (1500*0.27+600*1.09) = 23400-1059 dmg blocked
= 22341 getting through
22341*(1-0.13)= 19436 dmg

So, in the case of an MA, where refelcts would be a good bet (except that you need AAd vs MA, the blockers+13% are only 2.5% better at reducing damage taken.

In the case of Agent, where the majority of damage is taken via capping specials, the benefit of ward is obviously much larger.

TL;DR
The benefit of gaining 2-3% more reflects on barrier doesn't make it usable.

[-Klod-]

Why on earth Kippurs need special/normal blockers after AS/FA rebalance?

[Molotoff]

2. reflects don't work vs nukes and I don't think they work vs doctor dots (could be wrong here).

Reflects work on dots and nukes (except those designed to go through reflects, a.k.a. LE nukes).

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Reflects work on dots and nukes (except those designed to go through reflects, a.k.a. LE nukes).

thanks.

Unfortunately, LE nukes are the toughest ones to deal with.

[Raggy]

thanks.

Unfortunately, LE nukes are the toughest ones to deal with.

They won't be around when the balance changes hit live

[Keex]

so death grip, eh? will they get army, too? ;D