What stats should the enforcer profession have?

[Koizumi]

Fixing the stats an enfo can get will NOT change how badly people get destroyed by enfos in the current game state.

Oh....so lowered NR, thus higher root/init debuffs landrate will NOT help with survivability of enf target?
Also, you might want to notice that theres no post count on these forums.

[Obtena]

Oh....so lowered NR, thus higher root/init debuffs landrate will NOT help with survivability of enf target?
Also, you might want to notice that theres no post count on these forums.

Survivability isn't what is the problem with enfos. Docs have way more survivability than enfos do ... where is the NERF DOC thread? It doesn't exist because docs don't kill people like enfos do. I've handed enough clues out to you today. I'm done with you.

[Saetos]

Wow, what a bukkake storm of stupid. You are actually going to use temporary healing to make an argument as well as misinformation, what will you say next Glenn Beck.

The factoid was only questioning if they could, not if they could keep it up throughout a BS fight.. And by Knuckle's numbers (though why he's counting Blessing no one knows) his register of about 27.5k comes decently close.

[Marinegent]

Enfos actually do make a significant choice for a good number of spots, especailly 1HB ones. The problem here is two parts ... FC needs to provide options (most UTIL and HUD slots are no-brainers for enfos) and the fact that AAD has not scaled by the same amounts AAO has. That's actually put enfos in a worse position for making choices because if an enfo DID want to focus on AAO setup, it won't be effective, so they go with the optimized AAD one instead.

Even if you are limited in equipment choices, the profession itself is strong in far too many aspects.

I dont necessarily want to see you make choices based on gear (though non-cookie cutter setups ARE a good thing) what I mean is that I want to see enforcers make a choice at the root of the profession which strengths or weaknesses to have.

Via by what the playerbase (the non-trolls) decides is "balanced", or by putting the strength of the profession in perk lines and nano lines, perhaps nanos that would lock out other nanos.

An example : Improved Challanger, no NSD or Long recharge draw back, but you become locked out of using Rage for the entire duration of challanger.

Something that forces you to go offense or defensively focused. Kinda like NT's.

Make sense?

And by Knuckle's numbers (though why he's counting Blessing no one knows)

Blessing Of life.

It's a perk from the "group perk line" collossal health.

Enforcers have it but everyone is trying to criticize a profession when they dont even understand all the perks and things open and not open to that profession.

[Obtena]

It's sensible, but it's not reality. Enfos are forced to take a defensive focus, simply because that's the equipment available in most slots as well as the fact that AAO items don't progress with the same values as AAD items. No enfo is going to take a 20 AAO item over a 50 AAD one, not only because it's less, but everyone else is using that 50 AAD item as well. If there was some real choices, there would be more variety available to choose a focus, but their isn't.

I mean, you strip the equipment and say there is something more fundamentally wrong with enfo. None of the stats we have are exceptional, certainly not the things that people are eluding to that make enfos OP'ed like evades. Is there something wrong with enfos? Sure, but it's not the things that people are focusing on. They just see big numbers for things, conclude that big numbers = OPed and nerfing those will fix enfos. That's a stupid approach.

Are nanos OPed? Someone might make that case, but that's a problem with nanopool and costs, not the stats on the nanos themselves. FC is looking at that. It's not bad to give a profession good tools, but there needs to be limitations and those limitations. Gimping those tools isn't an option ... restrictions like cooldowns and availability are. I find it funny that NT's and traders complaining about Enfos ... probably the most annoying professions for the enfo profession to have to deal wtih.

Honestly, look at the perks available. No stat an enfo possess make them OPed. It's the combination of perks and specials. You take fully outfitted, OPed enfo #1 with 1HE/1HB and reset them to 2HE. People will say it's gimp because they can't kill anyone and maybe even non-threatening. That's NOT a stats problem, it's specials and perks.

Enfos as a profession are not OPed, it's simply a perfect storm of perks and itemization. Take away SA and one of the OP perks and anyone playing an enfo will quickly find it's an order of magnitude difference to kill anyone. If anything, other professions need to be brough into the same 'capability' of enfos for PVP. Interpret that as you will, but it certainly doesn't mean never dying and always killing everyone.

[MachSchau]

It's sensible, but it's not reality. Enfos are forced to take a defensive focus, simply because that's the equipment available in most slots as well as the fact that AAO items don't progress with the same values as AAD items. No enfo is going to take a 20 AAO item over a 50 AAD one, not only because it's less, but everyone else is using that 50 AAD item as well. If there was some real choices, there would be more variety available to choose a focus, but their isn't.

I mean, you strip the equipment and say there is something more fundamentally wrong with enfo. None of the stats we have are exceptional, certainly not the things that people are eluding to that make enfos OP'ed like evades. Is there something wrong with enfos? Sure, but it's not the things that people are focusing on. They just see big numbers for things, conclude that big numbers = OPed and nerfing those will fix enfos. That's a stupid approach.

Are nanos OPed? Someone might make that case, but that's a problem with nanopool and costs, not the stats on the nanos themselves. FC is looking at that. It's not bad to give a profession good tools, but there needs to be limitations and those limitations. Gimping those tools isn't an option ... restrictions like cooldowns and availability are. I find it funny that NT's and traders complaining about Enfos ... probably the most annoying professions for the enfo profession to have to deal wtih.

Honestly, look at the perks available. No stat an enfo possess make them OPed. It's the combination of perks and specials. You take fully outfitted, OPed enfo #1 with 1HE/1HB and reset them to 2HE. People will say it's gimp because they can't kill anyone and maybe even non-threatening. That's NOT a stats problem, it's specials and perks.

Enfos as a profession are not OPed, it's simply a perfect storm of perks and itemization. Take away SA and one of the OP perks and anyone playing an enfo will quickly find it's an order of magnitude difference to kill anyone. If anything, other professions need to be brough into the same 'capability' of enfos for PVP. Interpret that as you will, but it certainly doesn't mean never dying and always killing everyone.

Yes.

[Djantro]

and the irony ... That has NOTHING to do with the kinds of numbers an enfo can get on their stats ... So all this crying about enfo ar/evades, etc... is purely stupid. If an enfo kills you fast, it's just a combination of perks and specials that land on you. Fixing the stats an enfo can get will NOT change how badly people get destroyed by enfos in the current game state.

As a matter of fact, a 2HB enfo can get the highest AR of any enfo setup and according to you, aren't a threat. See the problem?

As i stated above you could change some other enfo's stats and fix my issue indirectly.

The fact i see stuns & alpha amount as the main issue (and btw, the OP included those 2 in its set of "stats" we are currently discussing) is due to subjectivity, fact i m a trox NT pvping almost only in BS, and for some "fairness" reasons. In that matter, someone might add the roleplay reason (to justify high AR, low evades or w/e) even if it isn't my concern here. Some moderate AR profession might perfectly judge completly dumb the fact a 10 feet tall piece of meat might resist any of their perk even if they are in a low AR setup, and suck up the fact they gonna be stunned and alphaed. Or maybe they have enough evade to reduce alpha dmg to 1/3 of its potential, or just ignore stuns completly (MA), or can survive 5 to 10 seconds stunned.

At the end of the day it s the matter of how large your perspective is that will define if whatever you wrote in these forums is relevant or not. This is why i asked confirmation from other prof/people about this stun thing.

On that subject, when i first stated the big difference as i see it beetween 2hb and 1hb based enfos, it was indirectly to point that, being a 2hb enfo, you might lack some some perspective to judge if enfos are or not OP, since to my eyes, 2hb enfos ain't OP at all. Furthermore, my hypothesis is that all those thread starting about enfo OPness are talking about said 1hb enfos at 90% (and trox on top of that, for evader issue - see kink's post thru that prism if you will), since 90% of 220 pvp enfo in good or endgame gear are in fact, 1hb, trox, and 2x more brutal then a Rossi or Herk *versus me*(exageration, maybe it's more like 1.5x, cause dam herk and rossi are good, but average Joe 1hb = 2x average Joe 2he).

It's perfectly fine to defend your stats from the perspective of a 2hb enfo since the nerfstick shouldn't probably affect 2hb enfos at all. But it shows imo your lack of perspective on the subject. If you did run around in a 1hb setup, please state it and i ll just edit all i said and apologise.

[Obtena]

It may surprise you but I was 1HB for almost all my entire enfo career, from level 1 to 220, up until about 2-3 months ago when I switched to 2HB. I have that perspective as a 1HB/1HE PVP enfo in full end game gear as well as a 2HB one now and even a short stint as a 2HE enfo when i was regearing myself at 220, just to try it out.

The stats and enfo gets change very little between the different flavours of weapon combos. 2HB get a bit more access to AR and more IP to spend than 1HB/1HE enfos, sacrificing damage and stuns in the process. If FC follow through with some of the things they are hinting at, that IP might be enough to shift some of the the balance to see enfos moving away from a 1H setup for PVP.

[Mostadio]

I say it again man, get rid of the stunlock and I'd have no complaints about enfos. The alpha wouldn't be that big of a deal if people could actually do things like.. heal.. push coon.. /disco. People cried rivers about bureaucrat stunlock with procs... and those things were sporadic and could not be timed.

[Djantro]

It may surprise you but I was 1HB for almost all my entire enfo career, from level 1 to 220, up until about 2-3 months ago when I switched to 2HB.

I have then to apologise for what i assumed, saying i d edit is dumb since people won't understand... well i can if you want.

I have then to say that i m quite surprised the difference beetween 1hb enfos and rest is not made evident in those discussion. Maybe again it's my NT's PoV, so please say if i m wrong, saying that 1hb enfos are far superior in pvp then 2hb and superior to 2he.

Again from a NT's PoV : 2hb enfos = not a threat, 2he well played = balanced, 1hb enfos = over the top because of these stuns.

We could scale down and say 2hb enfos are totally underpowered, 2he are bit underpowered, and 1hb ones are balanced ; this is what the discussion is about, and i don't really agree with that. But can we agree there is a hierachy beetween those 3 weapons options ? So that we can move forward and stop comparing orange with apples.

[Obtena]

Oh for sure .. there is definitely a heirarchy of weapons for PVP and that really goes to the heart of what I have been saying ... nothing intrinsic about enfos is OP'ed.

@Most ... check the perk documentation FC released .. you will see stuns have taken a hit. Many reduced in duration, some even removed.

[Gatester]

The reason I suggest to repost it in enfo forum is that the enfo profs can properly moderate out the inevitably stupid stuff a thread like this will attract.

I told you guys not to post, you posted, and look what happened

I was entirely aware of what would happen in this thread, and that enforcers would post irregardless of my request, and that their would be flames. So if the bulk of the enforcer community wants to act with bold stupidity and anger, then do not blame this thread as you are preventing it from functioning as it should.

At least, thats how it seems atm All of you can argue to your hearts content, I already have enough information for what I need but if the thread continues then it will only increase the information I have at my disposal. This thread and what will result is for the community, not the devs, FC, or you professionals. If something positive results then that will merely be a beneficial side-effect.

Lets check that statement:

imongo heals for 500/ 2s 10 hits =20s
healdelta is 200/2s

cost on imongo is 845 -20% cost (estimated)= approx 600
nano pool = 8k approx.
So, enf can easily chain imongo for 1 minute (thats 3 casts)

imongo =510/2s*60s= 15300 hp/min
HD is 200/2s*60s= 6000 hp/min
bio rejuve is 1600/30 seconds =3200 hp/min
blessing is dunno, 1k/40s*60s=1500 hp/min
draw blood? 2000 hp/min approx
lifeblood: 240*14/300s*60s= 672 hp/min
bio R: 500*29/(5*60)*60s= 2900 hp/min

All in: 29574 hp/min give or take.

30k health per minute +/- 1.4% thats not that far off?

Add some stims to the mix, maybe a little sitdown sesh of HD, 35000k is definitly not far off.

Your starts are for a pvm enforcer similar to my signature, not a pvp enforcer. A perk setup you have includes:
Form of Troll 10
Bio Shielding 10
Colossal health 10 (9? Also draw blood is about 400 hp/min)
leaving 10 perks to spare for blunt mastery

A pvp enforcer perk setup includes:
Blunt Mastery 10
Edged Mastery 10
Manners of Mongo 9
Bio Shielding 10
leaving 1 spare perk

The difference is:
49 HD less
7000 max health less
No Blessing of Life
No Lifeblood
No Draw Blood

The healing still is not too bad, but enforcers take a lot of damage. Oh, and you forgot "remove Slowdown"

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Wow, what a bukkake storm of stupid. You are actually going to use temporary healing to make an argument as well as misinformation, what will you say next Glenn Beck.

LOL, you fail math 8 or something?

The temp healing aka bio R is reduced in effectiveness by the recharge (I took that into consideration)

Machschau your ignorance is only surpassed by your stupidity. Sorry.

The factoid was only questioning if they could, not if they could keep it up throughout a BS fight.. And by Knuckle's numbers (though why he's counting Blessing no one knows) his register of about 27.5k comes decently close.

blessing is a misnomer, I couldn't remember the name of the 1st perk in the CH line.


Gatester: I didn't include troll form deliberately, although, if that is where the 200HD number that obtena posted came from, then I did inadvertantly.

Regardless, it's not too far off. I always include CH in my calculations because it seems that most enforcers use it at TL5.

[Moonbolt]

TL 5 and Tl 7 is very different for enforcer perk setup ..

[Moonbolt]

I say it again man, get rid of the stunlock and I'd have no complaints about enfos. The alpha wouldn't be that big of a deal if people could actually do things like.. heal.. push coon.. /disco. People cried rivers about bureaucrat stunlock with procs... and those things were sporadic and could not be timed.

the 1hb stun is actually the only thing that lets enforcers kill a doc or an agent.. w/o it we would have 0 chance to kill them.

[Moonbolt]

I told you guys not to post, you posted, and look what happened

I was entirely aware of what would happen in this thread, and that enforcers would post irregardless of my request, and that their would be flames. So if the bulk of the enforcer community wants to act with bold stupidity and anger, then do not blame this thread as you are preventing it from functioning as it should.

At least, thats how it seems atm All of you can argue to your hearts content, I already have enough information for what I need but if the thread continues then it will only increase the information I have at my disposal. This thread and what will result is for the community, not the devs, FC, or you professionals. If something positive results then that will merely be a beneficial side-effect.



Your starts are for a pvm enforcer similar to my signature, not a pvp enforcer. A perk setup you have includes:
Form of Troll 10
Bio Shielding 10
Colossal health 10 (9? Also draw blood is about 400 hp/min)
leaving 10 perks to spare for blunt mastery

A pvp enforcer perk setup includes:
Blunt Mastery 10
Edged Mastery 10
Manners of Mongo 9
Bio Shielding 10
leaving 1 spare perk

The difference is:
49 HD less
7000 max health less
No Blessing of Life
No Lifeblood
No Draw Blood

The healing still is not too bad, but enforcers take a lot of damage. Oh, and you forgot "remove Slowdown"

my perk setup is actually

Blunt Mastery 10
Edge mastery 10
biosheilding 10
and form of troll 10

i chose that setup cause the healdelta and the HP loss was taking a to big ht out of my survivability otherwise.
the troll form stuns i barely use at all tho in pvp except when trying to live a little longer vs a sold since they take to much time to charge up and arnt realy helpful at all in the alpha.
the 2k snare from troll fom just makes it to easy to kite me if i use it and thus interrupt my alpha.

and i found the manners of mongo stuns to be WAY to unperdictable and do to low dd to be of any real use at all.

[Mostadio]

the 1hb stun is actually the only thing that lets enforcers kill a doc or an agent.. w/o it we would have 0 chance to kill them.

That's an issue with doc heals and not enforcer alphas. Nice try, tho.

[Moonbolt]

well it might be an issue with doc heals and what not... it still is the only way to kill healers....

[Djantro]

Bout doc - i personnally have nothing against the fact they could possibly be unbeatable 1 vs 1 by anyone, it's part of their role. Ofc as a NT if i step on a doc i just have the possibility to root him and keep goin.

Bout agent, i find surprising you can't drop a 20/25K alpha in a 8 seconds time ? possibly larger time window with init debuff ?

[Koizumi]

Survivability isn't what is the problem with enfos. Docs have way more survivability than enfos do ... where is the NERF DOC thread? It doesn't exist because docs don't kill people like enfos do. I've handed enough clues out to you today. I'm done with you.

Wtf are you talking about? I said "ENF's TARGET" survivability.....are you blind? or intentionally misreading?