deadline wanted for rebalance

[Insane666]

It's not strange or unfair in any manner that paying customers, whatever the service may be will want to know when problems will be resolved and when upgrades will be made.

It's perfectly reasonable for us to want to know about when this will happen and it's just as reasonable for FC to give a good answer.
Not vague hints that mean nothing.

^this

especially they are wayyyyyyy past the initial ETA's,,,

their current policies ( dont tell, dont admit! ) just show very little respect from FC to their loyal, monthly paying, custommers, or even worse it shows disrespect for the ppl that pay2play so they can keep earning their salary


if i payed them allmost 2k euros, during 5+ years ( for a comp game! lol ) i would believe im entitled to know whethear i can realistically expect the promissed changes/upgrades within a reasonable time frame, and when im given one, to expect them to meet the deadline


im willing to bet cash on that, if this was something else they are selling, if they were a random companny you buy something from in real life, 90% of us would move to an alternative service provider years ago

the thing is, ao so far has no alternative ( if you love the twinkin part most, and the extreme complexityof the game ), so were stuck with it


cant really help it but to feel like im being lied too, and tbh, if 2 years ago some1 told me that beyond no doubt ( and id believed him ) by today, the gfx engine will be still at the very least half year from releasing, id propably be playing a diff mmo right now

[Lightingfist]

This is a pretty good idea, it would be nice to count down the days on when the new engine will be done

[Tshaar]

...

Well put.

[bitnykk]

so far we had wut ... 4 professions + 2 more on next friday ?

so let's consider at the end of august we'll be around 6/14 (42%) of the entire nano rebalance. as perks seems mainly done, and at the rate we get the nano documents, let's say it'll take 4 more monthes to have them all wich leads to december.

from that idk how many time it'll take to get a full implementation + test period. i think 3-6 monthes seems reasonnable but any word from FC could make it clearer (on the other hand, more precision can lead to more frustruation if the release get delayed ...).

[Tshaar]

(on the other hand, more precision can lead to more frustruation if the release get delayed ...).

If I may paraphrase:
"We don't give out details our paying and loyal customers are entitled too because they might(will) get upset if(when) we don't deliver".

Oh I'm sure patronizing us is a way better option.
They are not setting any deadlines because they don't know how to meet them. We know that, they know that. End of story.

[Obtena]

Paying customers aren't entitled to anything, except to whatever terms they sign up to in the EULA. Not sure where everyone is inventing this idea that they pay so they are entitled to whatever THEY want to but that's not at all how things work.

[Esssch]

Paying customers aren't entitled to anything, except to whatever terms they sign up to in the EULA. Not sure where everyone is inventing this idea that they pay so they are entitled to whatever THEY want to but that's not at all how things work.

We're entitled to know because the AO devs love AO just as much as we do....but when they don't tell us stuff, they lose subscribers, and eventually they get to the threshold where FC shuts down AO entirely, which leaves the devs (who, remember, love AO) and the players (woah, they love AO too?!) without any AO to play (unless they release the source code, which is likely to happen once the sun freezes over)

Obtena, your time as a professional might be spent better trying to help the devs balance the game, rather than spending all your time playing devil's advocate and trying to get AO shut down, hm?

[Obtena]

Thanks for the advice but I have enough bandwidth to do help devs make enfos OP as well as drive AO into the ground at the same time. I'm awesome like that.

[Xtremtech]

I've been around this game a long time now. Almost every time that there has been an expansion coming up, there have been threads like this one... even for the Shadowlands release. People talked about not knowing what to do with their characters while they waited. People talked about leaving the game. People talked about reducing populations and the impact of uncertainty on the population.

During most of those development periods, AO had a dev team that told the player base just about nothing at all... nothing about content plans, nothing about profession/balance changes that were planned and just as little about planned release dates. Certainly nothing at even a fraction of the level of communication from this dev team - both about broad lines and about the details.

Oddly, none of these periods actually signalled the end of the game. There may have been some players who played less until the expansions actually came out... but the pattern in general has been that few players actually leave because of uncertain timelines and a great many players return to the game when major changes like these actually go through - and stick around if the changes are good ones.

I'd actually go so far as to say that this time the effect is much better. Firstly, the high level of communication about the content of the changes is reassuring players much earlier that the rebalancing will have an overall positive effect, so they're less likely to leave. Secondly, the players feel much more involved in the changes and so again feel generally more confident making them less likely to leave. Thirdly, because there has been so much player involvement, I think the changes will speak more directly to players and we'll see a lot more returning when the changes hit.

If you hear of players who like this game, saying that they're going to leave because there isn't a timeline - then you can be sure that the majority of them are talking bunkum. If they like the game, they'll be sticking around. If they like the changes we're getting so much info about - then they'll be sticking around too. Most people don't leave a game because there's no specific promised date on a change.

Of course we'd all love for this to come sooner rather than later... it looks like being a really good package of change for the good. But that's all the more reason to stick around... not leave the game.

X

[Esssch]

Oddly, none of these periods actually signalled the end of the game. There may have been some players who played less until the expansions actually came out... but the pattern in general has been that few players actually leave because of uncertain timelines and a great many players return to the game when major changes like these actually go through - and stick around if the changes are good ones.

And the differences between then and now? Back then there were about 10 times as many people ingame. Mass-leaving back then mattered as much as losing every person now does. I think Means & Co. have a slight grasp on this concept. They know that they have to communicate more than previous dev teams did. They may even want to communicate more than the previous dev teams did. But the issue we have is that they aren't communicating the correct information. That's what Obtena, Demoder, Xtrem, just don't seem to get. Ok, they're communicating with us, telling us what's going on. That's great. However, after waiting so long, seeing so little actual or planned changes, we want to know approximately how close we are to actually finishing this rebalancing. For some of us, the game is completely unplayable in PvP, and it's very rare to get any teams at all in PvM based on your class's abilities (I'm personally talking about MPs here, since I play one, but I'm sure other profs are feeling this too).

You guys specifically don't seem to get that there's 3 general groups of people. The people like you that don't really seem to care if or when the game is going to get better. The people who are joining our side, but will get upset at every little thing. And the people who really just want to know approximately how long we have to wait. See (I know this is amazing to your black-and-white images of the world) the 3rd group (aka us) won't get as mad as you're implying when a deadline isn't met. All we're really looking for is confirmation that FC has a plan, cause for the last 10 years, they've shown time and time again that they are completely incapable of planning. Even Kintaii agrees (look at my signature).

[Xtremtech]

I did address these points in my answer actually, which I'll go into below... but first:

Clearly, FC have a plan to change stuff. Handing out a solid implementation date to players, even if that were desirable, won't affect when the implementation hits. The design and implementation stuff will take just as long, whether players know it or not.

People leave/stop paying for games when they don't enjoy playing any more. That's the basic truth.

Generally, if somebody is enjoying the game, they won't leave. If they're not enjoying playing the game then they'll tend to leave. As you say, there will also be whiners who complain a lot on forums, but when push comes to shove, they'll stay if they're actually enjoying playing the game.

Knowing a firm date, even if that were possible, isn't going to make the game any more enjoyable to play. Your MP is still going to be unwelcome in teams and unplayable in PvP, whether you know the date of some upcoming changes or not.

If they're not enjoying the game, then they may choose to just take a payment break... and then come back to the game when the changes hit. This group will largely take the break whether or not the changes are going to hit in January or June next year. Announcing a date won't really affect their decision... they'll go (or play freebie accounts) for now and come back whenever the changes actually hit.

There might be a very small group of players who will stick around if the implementation time is short enough, even though they're not enjoying playing the game. This is because they really want to continue playing but find that there's not enough enjoyment to put up with it. Most of them will return when the changes actually do hit, because they really want to keep playing.

Of your 3 groups:

1) People who don't care if the game's going to get better: well this probably really means people who are enjoying the game as it now is, really. They're happy to keep playing and won't leave... in fact they're all the more likely to stay because they see that the game is going to improve.

2) People who will get upset at every little thing: by which I think you mean people who tend to complain whatever's happening and won't leave anyway. The whine, but stay people.

3) People who want to know approximately how long they have to wait: There's little or no loss of player-base as a result of not having a deadline. There may be a period of slightly lower paying population during the development of the changes, which tends to come back again once the changes hit... but this is always true - and won't change whether or not it's known when the changes will be released.

Finally, I refer you back to my first post in this thread:

Earlier in the year, they said they wanted to get the rebalancing patch out for testing before the Graphics Engine release. At that time, they'd said that the graphics engine should be out around the end of this year. If you take those two things together, you could call it a very broad timeline of both Rebalance and Graphics engine out by the end of the year.

You said "All we're really looking for is confirmation that FC has a plan"... well there you go. Both statements there were directly from FC devs.

X

[Esssch]

The problem being, they've shown time and time again that they can't stick to things. Just like the plan was "no camping in Shadowlands", its now "engine before the end of the year, rebalance before the engine" which isn't a plan, it's a deadline. And it seems quite obvious that they're not going to be able to meet that deadline, hence why we want to see their roadmap, or plan. That way, when they release new documentation, we can look at the roadmap and go "ok, they just released this, so we're here, and now we just have to wait for this this and this and then its time for testing". Currently, we're getting nano changes. Do we know what's coming next? Presumably they put out perk changes already? (I honestly don't know, they did that before I came back to game, or right as I came back, I wasn't really interested). So now is it going to be items? All items, to make them all viable, or just the ones that everyone uses? IP-cost? Making parry/riposte work finally?

I don't know about everyone else, but I'd be happy with the next FWM just outlining what order they're going to put out the nano changes in. So far it's been MA->Keeper->Enforcer->Fixer, which doesn't have a logical order as far as I can tell. Then when they're done with the nanos and announce what they're changing next, announce the order they're planning on doing it in. Say they do IP next and they decide not to release it all at once. I'd want them to announce that they're going to do (for example) Abilities->Body->Speed->Trade & Repair->Melee->Nanoskills->Ranged, etc

[Xtremtech]

So we're not looking for a deadline, because we don't believe they can achieve whatever deadline they give? What would make you believe the validity of any roadmap?

You'd be happy with an 'in order' list of which professions will be covered in the nano docs... and you think that doing so would stop the droves of people you say will leave the game, killing it in the process?

Yes, they already released the perk documentation for SL perks, AI perks and LE perks. They've also released a bunch of information about games mechanics changes they're making. They've also taken some of those changes live in recent patches. They've also released high level, broad-line plans for the changes they want to make for all of the professions.

They've released the detailed nano changes they plan to make for 4 professions and will be bringing further detailed nano change documents out for the other professions in the coming weeks... and they've said that they'll release the nemesis nano document next week.

They've said that they want to bring out all of the changes in a single patch - with testing of the whole priior to that.... I suppose that's sort of a beta and that they're working on implementation concurrently with design.

Perhaps before you start condemning the planning and implementation, you should at least get yourself up-to-date on what's been done already and what they've already announced will be changed... just a thought.

X

[Esssch]

I'm aware of what's already been done. I remembered everyone arguing about the perk changes, I just wasn't sure if those were all of the perks and if they were final.

Everyone else is arguing for a deadline and your guys' arguments are that they won't meet it. In that case, provide a roadmap. We won't know how long it will take them, but at least we will know how far along we are.

That would probably stop me from leaving. Then again, it might not. They're spending over a year on PvP balance (which is needed, of course, but it's for a MINORITY of players). Meanwhile the rest of us are done getting our characters top notch. Even I'm close to done, and I came back to a practically stripped character in December. All I'm missing is a couple alphas and ACDC. But they won't add anything new PvM-wise until their PvP rebalance is done (and no, Collector doesn't count at all).

Ok, X, you have such faith in FC, when do you think this rebalancing will be done, to then work on the engine that was announced so many years ago? Cause so far, all I've seen from them rebalancing-wise is nerfing nanos that needed nerfing even without the rebalancing, getting rid of strafe-running, which effectively ruined PvP for a lot of people, and documents. So they've made a painfully obvious change, unnecessary change (at least for now), and....they've released some minor planning? You realize they still need to code the nano changes (and likely the perk changes) into the game? So they've effectively done maybe 2 month's worth of work on this in the last year?

[Soliartist]

How would they give ya anything else than a blurry answer, if they do not know that "deadline" themselves, mostly because they keep on changing things here and there while making the rest. At best, it would make people cry if that deadline was not respected, and it would only speed everything up for nothing tbh. Let's take time, just once.

[Autohead]

The longer this takes, the less likely we are to see people return if it ever does get finished. People waiting for this will simply stop caring, or will be so deeply intrenched in some new game that they won't want to come back.

Knowing at least a blurry roadmap would at least give these people a realistic idea of how long they can expect to wait if they follow the updates as they come out.

[Xtremtech]

Ok, X, you have such faith in FC, when do you think this rebalancing will be done, to then work on the engine that was announced so many years ago?

My point was (and has been throughout this discussion with you) that whether FC do or do not release a timeline or a roadmap won't really affect subscription levels substantively... which was your starting point.

I believe that the people in the AO team doing the graphics engine update are pretty much separate from those doing the balance update. I think you'll find that they're working on both at the same time, rather than one after the other.

As to when I think they'll get the rebalancing patch out... I think they'll be very lucky to have it done by the end of the year.

As I've said earlier in this thread before the discussion with you started up, it's a small team, working on a huge change in a massive system - which increases project risk considerably and means that any timeline that does exist is going to be a soft one. All the more reason for not publishing a timeline, since they know how soft any timeline will be.

X

[Insane666]

My point was (and has been throughout this discussion with you) that whether FC do or do not release a timeline or a roadmap won't really affect subscription levels substantively... which was your starting point.

I believe that the people in the AO team doing the graphics engine update are pretty much separate from those doing the balance update. I think you'll find that they're working on both at the same time, rather than one after the other.

As to when I think they'll get the rebalancing patch out... I think they'll be very lucky to have it done by the end of the year.

As I've said earlier in this thread before the discussion with you started up, it's a small team, working on a huge change in a massive system - which increases project risk considerably and means that any timeline that does exist is going to be a soft one. All the more reason for not publishing a timeline, since they know how soft any timeline will be.

X

if you believe that being late 2 years on GFX engine, and a year late ( so far ) on reballance, and being late by many months with everything in general, and not prioviding in such case any kind of roadmap wont affect the ammount active ppl ingame, think twice, or look arround how many/little ppl are left already ingame

and if you believe, that all those ppl will come back anywyas, once the gfx/reballance finally sees daylight, think twice and/or check mmorpg.com, theres sh*tloads of new sci-fi mmo's just arround the corner

[Demoder]

...and a year late ( so far ) on reballance...

Exactly how is rebalance one year late? The planning phase started less than a year ago..

[Xtremtech]

As said above, people leave a game because they're not having fun playing the game any more.

If they're not having any fun but they think that the changes will make the game better, then whether or not there's a timeline or a roadmap... they'll tend to leave or at least stop paying - and come back when the changes are in place. Or if they're particularly unhappy with one of their characters, they'll play other characters in the meantime. Or some drop back to playing freebie accounts until the changes hit.

If people are enjoying a game enough to continue playing, then they tend to stick around anyway. The timeline isn't going to make a great deal of difference to them.

The populations now may be less than in previous examples... but people were talking about falling populations before most of the major change patches over the years. We've been here before. We've also seen threads like these before most major changes, where people talk about quitting because of not having ETAs etc... but those people always seem to stick around and populations don't really drop much before major changes and tend to recover pretty well after the changes hit.

AO has had a falling population for some time now - perhaps more because some of the major issues in the game weren't being addressed and perhaps because the game was becoming stale to some extent. Whatever the reason, the announcement of real change in the public domain and GFX improvements are more likely to pull people into the game than to push them away - whether or not there's a deadline.

It looks like we'll have to disagree... but history is certainly more on my side than yours.

X