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Thread: New Enforcer Nano Changes

  1. #61
    I have to admit, I had a hard time following that new proc action because I can't seem to figure out what triggers it. I'm going to assume it's when an enfo is hit, which makes sense if FC wants enfos to be the primary choice for a tank all the time (everyone will love add damage because enfos aren't hard to hit). You are right though ... it has no effect on an enfo in team that isn't tanking, which doesn't address the concern that people have for a secondary team role. Not sure how FC doesn't understand that ... it was made loud and clear.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  2. #62
    If your tanking you boost your teams damage (and if theres an enforcer in the team they should be tanking).

    If there happens to be a second enforcer in the team, surely the element damage procs will give a nice boost to their own damage as well as every 20 seconds being able to buff the team (including the main enforcer) with absorbs.

    Not to mention you'd also be benefiting from the main enforcers enrage team buff.

    Granted tweaks could still do with being done, maybe adding a secondary proc onto the masochistic force proc that fires off per hit and gives the team a short absorb buff but will only fire off if the enforcer isn't being attacked.

    So if their tanking they boost the teams damage, if their not they boost the teams defense.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    If your tanking you boost your teams damage (and if theres an enforcer in the team they should be tanking).
    The point is that enfos don't need another reason to be the tank. Masochist Force just reinforces that. Also not entirely certain it stacks with soldier dmg buffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    If there happens to be a second enforcer in the team, surely the element damage procs will give a nice boost to their own damage as well as every 20 seconds being able to buff the team (including the main enforcer) with absorbs.
    First, no Enforcer is going to spend IP, nor start swapping def gear for nano gear permanently, to get 1601 MM to get the 750 DoT from -ANY- of the Element lines. It's just not feasible when Valiant Challenger only costs 1235 MM. And secondly, the top single layer will overwrite the team layer and provides more absorb, so that point is moot.

    Edit: Correction to the amount of MM needed post rebalance. If Dreadbringer becomes necessary Enforcers will need 1435 MM. If that's the case Hellish Rage is still just a kick in the nuts. I highly doubt Enfs will push for the 1601 MM for Element DoT, however. My NM Enf can get it easy, but why would I waste the IP that will probably be going to Parry?
    Last edited by Kopecz; Nov 29th, 2010 at 20:42:58.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  4. #64
    Apparently people thought they did with the changes to soldier and such and lets face it a little bit more is never amiss.

    also you don't need to spend the ip to get to 1600, you can skimp and go down to the next one (20% for 500 damage ever 2 seconds) or even the 400 damage one isn't so bad and only costs 50 more than the challenger.

    Also the top single and team layer is the same, the single just allows you to cast it again 5 seconds sooner.

    So you can get 70 more absorbs per second or you can have easier casting while fighting (switching between the tanking enfo and the mob for perks may cause issues) and of course helps protect the team should adds/agro switch.

    Not saying its perfect, thats why I gave the suggestion of an offense proc on the masochist nano that works when not under attack, so the nano has dual functionality but only one part works at any given time.

  5. #65
    Personally, I think the element line was/is/will be trash. It's just a shorter, more costly and complex and less effective challenger line which is an unnecessary IP drain. I think it's a bit criminal that the IP costs to get the top benefit of a PVM nano are being 'justified' by raising the MM skill of an absolutely necessary nano used almost exclusively for PVP.

    Honestly, I would rather see FC stop being creative here and just implement a very simple way to give enfos DD for PVM if that's the way they want to promote a secondary enfo role in teams.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  6. #66

    Unhappy

    I would like to know if author of this document considered ip investment of Enforcers.

    I'm currently 1hb/piercing. I've no free skill points left. I've nothing in nano pool, psychology, perception, hiding, maps or vehicles. I don't have maxed skills like first aid, nano resist, melee inits, dimach, CL and some nano skills. And now I need to spend in SI again and max parry, ripost, psychology and nano pool.

    Enforcers have all nano skills dark blue, but we need to invest into 5 of them. Really? Are we a caster class? Then change color of nano skills and give us access to casters symbs.


    BTW I'm supporting class rebalance.
    Dragocz RK1

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragocze View Post
    Are we a caster class?
    I would argue yes
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Personally, I think the element line was/is/will be trash. It's just a shorter, more costly and complex and less effective challenger line which is an unnecessary IP drain. I think it's a bit criminal that the IP costs to get the top benefit of a PVM nano are being 'justified' by raising the MM skill of an absolutely necessary nano used almost exclusively for PVP.
    I agree with you if we're talking exclusively about Dreadbringer. I too believe the element line will be crap, but it's Dreadbringer's reqs i'm more worried about. Since that nano really is exclusively PVM, and will most likely be necessary, and after rebalance Rage will be exclusively nothing more than a temporary NR buff I don't see why the reqs were increased.

    The Devs haven't made much sense in any of the enf doc manifestations.
    Last edited by Kopecz; Nov 29th, 2010 at 22:05:08.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragocze View Post
    I would like to know if author of this document considered ip investment of Enforcers.

    I'm currently 1hb/piercing. I've no free skill points left. I've nothing in nano pool, psychology, perception, hiding, maps or vehicles. I don't have maxed skills like first aid, nano resist, melee inits, dimach, CL and some nano skills. And now I need to spend in SI again and max parry, ripost, psychology and nano pool.

    Enforcers have all nano skills dark blue, but we need to invest into 5 of them. Really? Are we a caster class? Then change color of nano skills and give us access to casters symbs.


    BTW I'm supporting class rebalance.
    There is evidence that IP is a consideration, but not from the POV of specific setups. I believe what could have been done is that the NS reqs for other nanos have been lowered enough so that the IP regained could be spent on other NSes. What bothers me about this approach is that if you are a PVM enfo and those lines were good enough before then you did already increased MM to that level to use them. Now, they are better and you still have MM. Business as usual.

    If you are a PVM enfo and you didn't raise MM to 1435, you will think about it and see if some IP sacrifice is worth it to get those new nanos. You might even have IP left over. Reasonable yes?

    Now, if you are a PVP enfo, you have to be wondering why the hell you have to spend another 200 points in MM for the same benefits you had before. OK, you gain access to some higher QL PVM nanos but who cares? A PVP enfo gets insignficant benefit from these nanolines. Certainly nothing that makes me think it's worth maxing MM for.

    What is even more disturbing is that I think enfos will still need to put perk points into CoNC to be able to cast all these things. So we aren't saving IP, we aren't getting perks back. Furthermore the actions in CoNC are no longer favouring AAO as the attack rating so it's really a sink of perks and IP for rather secondary PVM effects. I think that's a completely unreasonable situation to put enforcers into.
    Last edited by Obtena; Nov 29th, 2010 at 22:20:36.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  10. #70
    with breed perks getting useful and changes to conc perks, we should not ignore the fact that perking conc only for the nanoskills is getting even more anoying and unfair as there are proffs that dont need conc and others cant live without conc. also perking conc for cating buffs is not the same as for other proffs who got offensive nanos ...

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Larafina View Post
    with breed perks getting useful and changes to conc perks, we should not ignore the fact that perking conc only for the nanoskills is getting even more anoying and unfair as there are proffs that dont need conc and others cant live without conc. also perking conc for cating buffs is not the same as for other proffs who got offensive nanos ...
    This post sums up how irritating it is that enfs perk CONC at all tbh. WTB casting almost all of my top buffs w/o nanoskills in eye symb
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  12. #72
    ^^ That post is rather infuriating, obviously made by someone with a massive sense of entitlement or complete ignorance of other professions in the game.

    Garbage Brain symb? CHECK!!!
    No nanoskill in Ocular Symb? CHECK!!!
    No nanoskill gear? CHECK!!!

    'AMG, I can't cast my top nanos!!!'
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    ^^ That post is rather infuriating, obviously made by someone with a massive sense of entitlement or complete ignorance of other professions in the game.

    Garbage Brain symb? CHECK!!!
    No nanoskill in Ocular Symb? CHECK!!!
    No nanoskill gear? CHECK!!!

    'AMG, I can't cast my top nanos!!!'
    YA no Prof is more inhibited in the nanoskill department than an enforcer, and most especially the preferred breed of enforcer, the trox.

    When you absolutely have to have your top symbs and SOME kind of nano buff hud items or twinked on armor WITH CoNC perked to 10 tocast your top nanos that make you viable at endgame something is quite wrong considering we do not have a single offensive nano skill.
    "Can I have some shoes?"

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopecz View Post
    I agree with you if we're talking exclusively about Dreadbringer. I too believe the element line will be crap, but it's Dreadbringer's reqs i'm more worried about. Since that nano really is exclusively PVM, and will most likely be necessary, and after rebalance Rage will be exclusively nothing more than a temporary NR buff I don't see why the reqs were increased.

    The Devs haven't made much sense in any of the enf doc manifestations.
    I will second that. Of all the docs released, the enforcer one just feels thrown to gather to satisfy all the QQers. Not to mention of all the docs released thus far the Enforcer as a class is changing the most, and profoundly and not really in a direction most enforcers (i suspect) want to go.

    I don't know about my other enforcers out there but being a zerg tank only and pvm survivability going down (as it looks currently but I am aware the game is going to fundamentally change) doesn't feel appetizing.

    Uhm... however many enfos we have now is how many we will have after rebalance. If things stay as they are... I would certainly never roll another one.
    Last edited by fortorn; Nov 30th, 2010 at 08:33:24. Reason: spelling
    "Can I have some shoes?"

  15. #75
    I think we're just going to have to raise MM, that's what FC are saying. I just hope they're giving us a full IPR. On my soli enf with the lower other reqs I might be able to do away with CoNC, which is a nice bonus... On my atrox, I doubt it, even in full alphas... but atrox gets a couple k more hp & MR

    It's the old school FC formula -1 +1 = 0
    /shrug

    --

    The way I see the latest nano changes, I'm not sure (atrox) enfs will have the nano to hold agro (due to high cost + lower taunt = more frequent taunting) and run the element dmg buff... or possibly even challenger. Does this mean they only expect secondary enfs to be running both of those? So our secondary role is DD now? Even with the new elements line & increased dmg to challenger I'm not sure we'll make up that much ground on other profs. Maybe if we can easily swap out some def items for dmg ones ... *shakes a fist at ATE perk line*

    --

    Without rage RS I'm concerned that in PvM we won't be near enough to (taunt) our next target when the ranged DDs or faster melee profs are itching to mash their special & take agro. I don't want to be a limiting factor on the speed our quest/mission/raid being me getting my a$$ to the front of the pack, like yawn. Right now it's fun, as soon as a mob is down I heading like an express train to the next! I really hope PvM is taken into account with this new unique tool FC are thinking up.

    I think some (not tons, I'm all for interesting & unique tools) static RS in our init buff line would be nice regardless

    I welcome that the range on single taunts has been increased to match mongo, good call imo

    I'd quite like FC to go further and provide a BIG single taunt with long range that can only be used as an opener (only if target is above 80% HP or something). That'd ease my speed concerns and be a nice/useful tool (yes not necessarily a nano)

    --

    Most other changes I'm looking forward to seeing, once they're done I might even level up a third enfo just for the experience/fun of it

    One tiny thing that's starting to bug me is the name of the SL Essence line being Mongo's <something>, and then having the area taunt line also called Mongo <something>. Too similar imo. Mongo's <something> is an Essence, call it something essence-ish; spirit, embodiment, even mojo would be better, lol!

    Wow that post turned out longer than I expected, sry >.<
    Troxxor - Atrox Enforcer - My Ganker [Target]
    Slights - Solitus Enforcer - My Tanker [Target]

    Loyal General of Ascension
    www.clan-ascension.org
    Rimor | Clan
    Significant Alts: SlightChange | Bokken | Takken

  16. #76
    ^^ I can confirm that with full alphas and research, solitus enfos can achieve the 1480 nanoskills required to cast without a single point in CoNC. Still, you might not WANT to do that for PVP ... a simple inexpertise will be your end. That being said, if you HAVE to perk CoNC, you have the nice option to augment your AR with the Syndicate Brain. NR won't be a problem since Rage still gives massive NR boost.

    And yes, everyone is getting an IPR and a breed reset 'point' at some point for the re-balance. FC has confirmed it.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  17. #77
    I'd be in huge favor of these nerfs, especially the major difficulties in IP, if other professions were not being balanced in the opposite direction. I use all but crat and soldier from the current balancing docs what I see is my other professions exchanging one nerf for one boost, or recieving several boosts, and enforcers get no significant boosts.

    I still suspect FC will give enforcers and soldiers the best weapons in game to balance everything in the end rather than letting anyone and everyone twink into the same weapons we use, but it is gonna take one BFG or BFH (thats hammer) to make sense of this.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    And yes, everyone is getting an IPR and a breed reset 'point' at some point for the re-balance. FC has confirmed it.
    I don't want to be a solitus.
    Dragocz RK1

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragocze View Post
    I don't want to be a solitus.
    Don't worry, you can be NM or Opi if you want. Actually, I think NM will be a good option for enfos for PVM and even for PVP. I definitely see NM enfos 'outlasting' trox counterparts with their more abundant nanopool.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    ^^ I can confirm that with full alphas and research, solitus enfos can achieve the 1480 nanoskills required to cast without a single point in CoNC. Still, you might not WANT to do that for PVP ... a simple inexpertise will be your end. That being said, if you HAVE to perk CoNC, you have the nice option to augment your AR with the Syndicate Brain. NR won't be a problem since Rage still gives massive NR boost.

    And yes, everyone is getting an IPR and a breed reset 'point' at some point for the re-balance. FC has confirmed it.
    Very cool, now that is good news ^.^

    I don't pvp on my soli enf so personally I'd take a free whole perk line over using the syndicate brain. But that said, the multimelee on the syndicate brain is v nice + the new buff together might mean less IP spent there. We like choices... Oh & lol, you can save IP on MM to spend it on MM, now that's balance for you FC!

    As for boosts, I'm not going to turn my nose up at +135 brawl, +128 FA, +191 dmg, +200 team dmg (I'm always in my team, right? ) and a nice little dot

    Anyone notice elements of rad requires less MM to get the top dot than the others in that line btw? I'm wondering if that's deliberate because it's harder to cast in the first place... or just a typo?
    Troxxor - Atrox Enforcer - My Ganker [Target]
    Slights - Solitus Enforcer - My Tanker [Target]

    Loyal General of Ascension
    www.clan-ascension.org
    Rimor | Clan
    Significant Alts: SlightChange | Bokken | Takken

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