balance and consequences

[Kinkstaah]

I got a question for you Enfo players: If a shade nor soldier can kill a "good" enfo 1-on-1, toe-to-toe, then who can?

I'm not going to include MA/NT/Advy because they seem to kill just about anyone these days. Seems like only the elite fixers pose a problem to the well-equipped enforcer at TL7 so that's out of the equation considering there aren't many (at least in rk1). Just what exactly is considered balanced for an enfo? Facerolling 80%+ of the game's profs in perks? Obviously the rebalance is going to set limits on defensive/offensive tools. Not just on enforcers, but on EVERYONE. Like I've mentioned before, the whole deed isn't quite done yet. Let's sit back and watch a bit more before we start jumping the gun here, eh?

um

lol @ this thread.
Enfs will be utter garbage, considering they arent good now and most competent non drooling retards can easily handle the best enfs in real pvp.

My hope is once the rebalance is done, people have a bit of a rofl about how bad enfs turn out to be, then they get the love so they're actually viable.

Any class can take down an enf. Only real exception is a doc, and a doc with rrfe is un-alphable as long as the doc knows how to hit MOTR, free movement stim, or a BGH, or whether the Enforcer has MR (not an enf tool)

If you're dying to enfs, just learn.

[nitr0]

So you're saying that we're a bunch of conservative twits who don't want any change no matter how good it is and how much better the game becomes after it? I quite recent that, and you don't find many people more veteran than me.

i think, in all the years i been playing ao i hardly EVER heard anyone ingame complaining about balance - except the usual nerf that - nerf this - and boost my profession talk.

maybe i am wrong, but my feeling is like a vast majority of players are happy with the balance as it is now.

and it's kinda obvious that "balancing" will only change the foodchain of classes, but there will never ever be real balance in AO unless they patch every toon in every prof equal.

[Pomidor]

upcoming balance has, imho, more chances to broke game, then actually repair it. I am aware and sure that some things needed to change, but FC forgot to prioritize Classes, before balance, thus this we got changes which will have huge impact on current characters (enforcers and soldiers especially), and no touch for loved ones (cant see major changes to OP adv, to which other classes on certain lvls are inferior - and yes, i do have Tl7 advie).

Just imagine such situation:

FC states - Adv will lose Coon ability. What player will say? This would be RAGE like never seen before

But soldier is losing his TMS ability... (tbh, its nerfed like nothing before in game) and only few are against it - Advies and rest classes, which are powerful to soldier on low/mid TL's, are happy. Why is that so? Cause this class is close to useless on most lvls anyways, so players that have them already, are possesing other ones, better classes to play after nerf, and will be trigger happy to slay gimped sols. Thats not problem for me, but I cant see balance when things are not working, and are tend to work worse after action that supposed to fix it.

To me changes are to huge to predict overall impact, and proposed changes have good chance to mess things up more then it is now.

When I talk about it, I got in mind AS mechanics thats confirmed - Soldier w/o AS wont be able to kill abything...

Now, there are Classes IN-game, actually, and you name it, but they are. I cans ee FC is focused on make things equal, so basicly, Soldier/Enf should get Tradeskill buffss/perks to be able to build stuff, caue Trader/Eng is good in PVP, and Tradeskilling, and those 2, arent on both fields...

I still want to see diversity in pvp, but Main classes should have more adventages of firepower/arms to support ones - and this aint gonna happen

[Ciex]

Balance … if they had balance in mind they would only change a few things and it would be ready long time ago. But they don’t, even tools that have nothing to do with anything like taunts etc. are told to be changed. So my conclusion is that it doesn’t have anything to do with making things more “fair” or “balanced” for an average player. They cant bring us new engine and have no resources to bring a real expansion so they are just going to change profession tools to make things new and interesting again. Balancing is just a poor mans expansion; at nearly no cost it may bring some interesting things and again attract bored people. But … but this whole balancing issue is so old (this very forum part was implemented over a year ago and first news about balancing are around 2 year old if I remember correctly) that Im not sure if there ever be any balance at all. From just forum activity it looks like people don’t need anything to get excited. Even a few simple propositions given every month or two keep them occupied, complaining, arguing …

So far it seems that balancing is like every other religion. It requires you to turn off logical thinking and relay on faith. You shall never complain that no miracle has happened yet. There is no evidence that anything is incoming at all yet people are excited and they wait listening to prophets who tell em about incoming better times. Even if you play XXXXX and you are f…ed in both pvm and pvp because the only thing people may want from you in pvm are your long time buffs and in pvp you just die over and over to people who were more lucky with their profession choice or whatever you shouldn’t worry. Just believe in The Balancing, is coming Soon TM! Turn on Bob Marleys „Three little birds” or express your frustration by making a forum whine or ask to nerf something or just go and play alone so you can pay for lootrights of items that you wont ever get as you are useless or … Just remember to keep paying subscription

[Hvyshadows]

Tbh, after seeing the changes that they have made so far (and we should stress that these changes are neither final, nor complete), I think "balance" is a bit of a misnomer. Originally, it seems that the idea behind re-balancing was just what it sounded like. Evening out the power of the different classes so that when pitted against each other, there would be more parity and less wtfbbqpwn classes that could blow through anyone else. It seems now, however, that they are taking this opportunity to water down the power of all the classes in both PvP and PvM overall, and to even out the abilities of all classes across the various levels. For instance, make docs less ghimpy at the lower levels, but nerf their power considerably at the high end. Similar with crats. Take away the tools that make end game instances a cake walk, but give the lower and mid levels something extra to make them a bit more powerful.

Personally, I welcome this change and believe it will do more good for the game than harm. One common complaint that exists is that end game toons are simply too powerful now in PvM. Instances that were obviously designed to require a full team or multiple teams, can be easily done with two players. Or even soloed. While it makes it easier to acrquire phatz, it's bad for the game. Four man beast teams, two man DB/LoX teams are not good for the game.

If we readjust our thinking to realize that by "balancing" they really mean decrease the power of end game toons overall, then the changes that they are making, and the time it is taking to get it done, make more sense.

Also, they are trying to appease us by delivering the information by profession as they get it "completed". We are begging for this. But at the same time, we scream and complain when no one has seen what the final picture is going to look like yet. I say we all just relax, let them work through all the professions, see what the new world looks like, and then go nuclear.

[Pomidor]

i think, in all the years i been playing ao i hardly EVER heard anyone ingame complaining about balance - except the usual nerf that - nerf this - and boost my profession talk.

maybe i am wrong, but my feeling is like a vast majority of players are happy with the balance as it is now.

Majority does TL5 and up.

If you would spend so much time on lowbie PVP as me, you would see Balance ends when weapons comes to play. Soldier, Enf and Trader rulle lowbie PVP. You might see NTs (skilled players, that is) which are decent, and rest is garbage tbh. Its not like 60 Crat/Eng/Shade/Keeper/MA will stand fighting chance in 1vs1, not mentioning anything else.

What is WRONG that FC made weapons to boost characters viability in PVM, and it made them OP in PVP. Firstly, when I think about this is Engineer and his special blocker, which is lvl locked from 50 and blocks 1 (one!) special attack - its seems FC forgot, that any toon since lvl 1 can have 2 of them, which can be cycled even at 10 sec recharge. Furthermore, dmg Deald by Engi himself and Pet is not even comparable, and HP betwean said Engi vs i.e. Enf is way to different to compete. Same things goes to crat. I know, FC plans to rebuild pets, but then, it will be same: Kill master, leave robot. Also, Shades/Crats/Eng has poor to none support for weapons (and lack of any DD weapons) which makes them poor as twinks.

[Chrys]

It seems now, however, that they are taking this opportunity to water down the power of all the classes in both PvP and PvM overall, and to even out the abilities of all classes across the various levels. ...

Personally, I welcome this change and believe it will do more good for the game than harm. One common complaint that exists is that end game toons are simply too powerful now in PvM. Instances that were obviously designed to require a full team or multiple teams, can be easily done with two players. Or even soloed. While it makes it easier to acrquire phatz, it's bad for the game. Four man beast teams, two man DB/LoX teams are not good for the game.

And this is the problem with their vision, unfortunately. Most players don't think about the overall game, they think about their profs and their personal pros/cons of the changes to the classes they enjoy playing. Just take a look at how prevalent the "Nerf them not us" attitude is.

The problem with nerfs is that most players play a game generally with a set idea of "progress" and want to see their toon progressing all the time. This is the basic draw of loot-games (e.g. Diablo), where you always get more powerful but there's always more difficult content ahead of you. When nerfs come, in every game I've ever seen, they lose players because it fundamentally breaks this concept. Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. What FC should be focusing on is making content harder with better mob AI/tricks, and bringing the weak profs up to speed with the stronger ones (and trust us the weak profs will be more than happy to tell you how). This will be effectively a nerf to the strong profs, but without detriment to individual toons.

Sadly, nerfing everyone for the good of the game, no matter how well-intentioned, is a hugely risky proposition for a game with so few players left. The players who think about returning will of course be asking the players currently playing about their views, and if the general opinion is negative, you're not going to get the droves of players back you might have hoped for, while running the real risk of further haemorrhage of the player base.

[CppThis]

I'm all for a massive overhaul, but as I discussed in another thread there needs to be some kind of escape clause for people who signed up for profession X and the rebalance screws their enjoyment of X and they'd be better off with profession Y instead. One-off reroll opportunity or something...not everybody has a stable of 8 220s and won't mind sacrificing one or two in the name of balance, and it's those devoted but not ultra hardcore players that Funcom absolutely has to not alienate if they want to attract new players post rebalance.

[Megasis]

Balance balance balance.

FC will make there changes to the balance. Even after it is all done, one toon will have the advantage over another toon or all toons

This game is based on Numbers and with numbers where rules are limited. Because of this we have number crushing players that will find that ultimate setup that will have the advantage over another thus making it over powered.

I remember On BS when it first came out I found myself using a ranged weapon and melee combo on my enforcer and it worked well. Heck alot of people were using wacky setups during that time.


Again people will find a way.

[Hvyshadows]

What FC should be focusing on is making content harder with better mob AI/tricks, and bringing the weak profs up to speed with the stronger ones (and trust us the weak profs will be more than happy to tell you how). This will be effectively a nerf to the strong profs, but without detriment to individual toons.

I couldn't agree more with this. However, I don't see it happening. Either the mechanics of the game won't allow it, or the creativity of the devs. Either way, look at the recent content they have added, i.e. LoX, Collector. At end game, it just doesn't seem possible for them to make an instance that is truly challenging in this way. The Collector was actually very creative from the standpoint of what we have had previously (using the knock-back function, the effects of the shades that spawn at the final boss, etc.) But it can still be done with a four man team and has undergone numerous changes just to try and make it a challenge. Mitaar is soloable, Vortexx can be done by two toons, and 12M can be done by four. The only really good example of an instance that is challenging is Dark Ruins, and many people don't finish the solo version. Why? Because it's too hard. Irony.