Plans with traders

[ithacana]

Oh Christ in Heaven, no. Skill drains cut to 5 seconds would mean that we'd never stop casting anything, meaning we'd do almost zero damage. Remember we rely on these drains to do decent damage with high QL weapons and heal/nanoregen/buff to our fullest extent. I don't mind our skill drains being more "active", but speed of execution, nanocost, or both have to be reduced sharply, or else we're completely useless in PVM.

Obviously in isolation it'd be a huge nerf, I assumed that people could read into my statement that it would need to be balanced in other ways. I probably should've been more explicit.

I like the 'principle' of having drains that are more 'active', with a low nanocost, low cast and recharge time, and low duration (5-20s, somewhere in that range). This would need to be balanced by providing non-nano healing, offensive and defensive actions for traders that allows them to AT LEAST maintain their current pvm and pvp offensive and defensive capabilities.

A 30s equivalent of an AAD/reflect perk buff (500 AAD, 25% reflect for 30s, 2min recharge), a decent perk heal or health regain aura/hot, and a static 10% crit buff would be examples of what I'm referring to.

[fixyourself]

lol 3 sec hardcap on drains...
or 10 sec long drains....
stacking 3 drains to live vs alot of professions and they would last 1 secs each??
yeh right.

Hehe 1 trader is not supposed to be able to steam roll Vs alot of people in pvp. 1v1 yes but 1v4 and the trader still has the ability to root/drain/pwn everyone is a bit much.

@ Radia I think the combat virus scanners are for bs only I may be wrong tho.

[Radia]

Oh Christ in Heaven, no. Skill drains cut to 5 seconds would mean that we'd never stop casting anything, meaning we'd do almost zero damage. Remember we rely on these drains to do decent damage with high QL weapons and heal/nanoregen/buff to our fullest extent. I don't mind our skill drains being more "active", but speed of execution, nanocost, or both have to be reduced sharply, or else we're completely useless in PVM.

... Well at least it got a reaction :-).

The idea would be a much more radical change than just cut the duration of the drain. Specifically:

1) The drain would last ~10 -15 seconds (so the trader is "nearly" always casting drains - balanced so the earlier, weaker drains don't take quite so long to recharge / cast as they do now, or alternatively, have longer duration - the idea isn't to nerf-bat levelling traders ).
2) Highest level drains have the same recharge time as present drains.
3) Same skills transfer as present drains (but balanced according to the level of the target - the idea being that a character of any level drains about 30 - 50 % of the target's AR (not the silly situations that happen in the early title levels where the target's AR goes into the negative ...).
4) As we'd be constantly casting, we'd need to combine skills transfer with health transfer for the trader to keep the same PVM viability (this would need some careful adjusting for PVP, as we wouldn't get much of a window to heal). That'd be where constantly casting drains should balance out damage wise, and would allow FC a way of adjusting trader damage more easily.
5) As we'd be constantly casting drains, the nanocost would need to be adjusted, as would the resist rates (more chances to resist should justify lowering the resist check, for example ...).

[erozc]

Meh.

Keep the beneficial effect on trader as is in PvP and PvP

In PvM, keep effect on target as it is.

In PvP, lower drain duration on target to something like 15 seconds. Or thereabouts.

Bump up drain nano costs, like all other defining nanos have been bumped up so you can't keep spamming drains indefinitely. Traders have nano drains anyway.

[Obtena]

Obviously in isolation it'd be a huge nerf, I assumed that people could read into my statement that it would need to be balanced in other ways. I probably should've been more explicit.

I like the 'principle' of having drains that are more 'active', with a low nanocost, low cast and recharge time, and low duration (5-20s, somewhere in that range). This would need to be balanced by providing non-nano healing, offensive and defensive actions for traders that allows them to AT LEAST maintain their current pvm and pvp offensive and defensive capabilities.

A 30s equivalent of an AAD/reflect perk buff (500 AAD, 25% reflect for 30s, 2min recharge), a decent perk heal or health regain aura/hot, and a static 10% crit buff would be examples of what I'm referring to.

That's not simply a nerf in isolation. Drains that have an effect duration of 10's of seconds on a trader are simply not acceptable or functional, no more than a soldier having a 15 second AR buff would be. If there is some confusion, traders are already casting 100% of the time in a PVP encounter and frankly, the current drains don't last long enough. Based on the fact that FC thinks buffs should last longer too would make that duration even more unreasonable. If these suggestions are the 'new' trader concept to put them inline with the other debuffing durations from other professions, I will be eagerly awaiting my new 600 point nanoskills buff, 500 point Shotgun buff and 400 points AAD buff, all with 4 hour durations, in the trader nano document.

What's amusing is that everything you suggest in the last paragraph, traders more or less have.

[ithacana]

That's not simply a nerf in isolation.

In 'isolation', reducing drain duration would be a nerf. So you're wrong. If by the inclusion of the word 'simply' you're just pointing out that it would be a 'big' nerf, then you're right. That's why I suggested that the rest of the trader tool set would need to be adjusted to compensate.

Drains that have an effect duration of 10's of seconds on a trader are simply not acceptable or functional, no more than a soldier having a 15 second AR buff would be.

That's not an argument, it's a statement. And an entirely irrelevant comparison.

If there is some confusion, traders are already casting 100% of the time in a PVP encounter and frankly, the current drains don't last long enough.

Again, I think you forgot to include an argument to try and justify your opinion.

blah blah irrelevant crap

...

What's amusing is that everything you suggest in the last paragraph, traders more or less have.

Cool story. I guess I can see how that might be amusing for you.

[ithacana]

To keep in the spirit of forum pvp, I probably should've also suggested that your skills/intelligence/anatomy are somehow inadequate, or some other insult that contributes nothing to the discussion.

[Radia]

Lets try to keep this constructive, yes ?

@Obtena: Are we not already constantly casting in pvp? Just usually, its either a health drain, a heal, or a drain. Would it really be problematic if the drain also came with a health drain incorporated into it?

The idea behind short-duration drains is to give traders a chance to land drains continuously, so we aren't majorly hampered by not having a drain land. I'm sure we've all been there, having divest up on a target, but failing to land plunder 4-5 times in a row. I'm sure we've also been in the opposite situation - you've just killed your target (a trader), but for the next two minutes, you are now gimped. Is either situation actually balanced?

I'd say no. It doesn't feel right that a trader can nerf his target long after the trader himself is dead and has lost the fight. I'd say it also doesn't feel right that traders have a hard time landing the entirety of the toolset they need just to survive - and it takes too long to get there too, meaning that once a trader is fully drained up, he's probably lost 60 - 70% hp (at least!). It just doesn't make sense that traders drain to survive, only by the time they have drained, they are either nearly dead ... or actually dead.

[Obtena]

Yes we are, and making us cast drains 100% of the time actually diminishes our ability to use our whole toolset and like, survive and all that fun stuff. So yeah, the 20 second duration idea on our buffs is a rather stupid idea. Itahcana speaks to compensate for that by other effects, I simply listed what those other compensating effects should look like if a 20 second drain duration would be implemented. His suggestion to give us things we already have is insulting, some of which are useless in PVP. 10% crit buff indeed. .

As for being constructive, the best place to start trader related threads is in the trader scetion of the forums. That's where you will get the most value for trader talk.

[Radia]

Trader mains are still active in the trader forums?!

[Obtena]

Well, if they aren't there, what makes you think there are here?

[Soosis]

- 1 big(ish) drain, to ef up single targets fast. less time spent in cast mode. cast/recharge err "reasonable". 6-8 sec recharge perhaps and 400 skill / 300 Def drain or so?
- Drain aura that stacks on the trader 4-7ish times, so that one target gets hit by say..100-150 skill/Def and trader gets it, not that game braking when 1v1, but then when multiple targets are present, the effect is stacked on the trader. This way, the more opponents the trader (or his team) is up against, more powerful he gets. Aura is fast on popping..say 2 secs. Would give interesting possibilities on tactics and wouldnt have to spam nanos for 5 minutes before making an effect on everyone around you.
EDIT: Maybe it would make traders more team worthy too, if the Aura would be given to team mates too, but only stacked 1-2 times on them.

Just a quick thought I had, so numbers might be/are off. The Aura would be interesting imo.

[howlin]

I'm sure we've also been in the opposite situation - you've just killed your target (a trader), but for the next two minutes, you are now gimped. Is either situation actually balanced?

I'd say no. It doesn't feel right that a trader can nerf his target long after the trader himself is dead and has lost the fight.

What are you talking about?
Its not CB or Dominates or crat init debuffs or fixer evade debuffs, traders drains are removed after fight in 10 seconds.

[agentwolve]

i thought troll threads get deleted ?

[MassDebater]

i thought troll threads get deleted ?

They do.

Now back to discussing how traders should be nerfed.

Personally I think drains strength dependant on player's level target side. I have suggested a multiplier earlier that favours nerfing tl2-3-5 and less tl7.

[-Klod-]

Wrangler should last for 4 hours.

[MassDebater]

Wrangler should last for 4 hours.

Only the trader debuff part.

[howlin]

Only the trader debuff part.

Bump, and the roots should be nerfed, i saw an enfo rooted once for a second.

[Radia]

Only the trader debuff part.

That would be hilarious :-).

<randomLowbie>131 pl0x
<Radia> Sure - that will be 40m credits.
<randomLowbie>Lolwut? It was 100k yesterday!
<Radia> Well, now I get debuffed for 4 hours.

[Shareida]

I like the idea of making nanos and perks more powerful in conjunction with other classes.

This is what makes GW so much more enjoyable.

As an example... if the hostile target has UBT running, a trader's Divest could have additional effects, such as a dot, or aad Debuff.

I know such a system is in place for a few perks, such as stoneworks+detonate stoneworks. Or bearhug+easy shot. But it would be nice to expand this a bit. Split up the perks/nanos so no profession can use them both. and make it visible for other allied players, that a perk combo is available.