Weapon requirements based on profession

[Gatester]

I logged my tl5 doctor in, looked at my dreadloch pistols again, then logged my tl5 ranged advy and was annoyed, again, by what I saw. I'll post some examples of "support" profession weapons, and then I'll post the "offensive" profession weapon choices.

Dreadloch Balanced Freedom Arms
1701 Pistol
851 Fling Shot

Dreadloch Tigress
1801 Bow
901 Fling Shot
901 Aimed Shot

Doctor's Left Hand of Grace
1701 Pistol
851 Fling Shot

Doctor's Right Hand of Hope
1701 Pistol
1201 Burst

Augmented Master Engineer Pistol
1701 Pistol
851 Burst

Abandonment of the Xan
1800 1h Blunt
900 Fast Attack
900 Brawl

I think that is enough of those examples of "support" weapons. Now for weapons non-support profs are supposed to equip.

Reflex Pistol
2001 Pistol
1601 Burst
1001 Fling Shot

Kur'Ush Mallet
2251 1h Blunt
1126 Fast Attack
1351 Brawl

Angst of the Xan
2251 Rifle
1126 Fling Shot
1126 Aimed Shot

Now, can someone please tell me why support professions are spoonfed weapons with such low requirements? Crats, doctors, and engineers are equipping pistols BETTER than the adventurer alternatives with 300+ higher requirements at level 150 to 170. Adventurers cannot equip that Twitch pistol until they are into the shadowlevels due to the high requirements. Engineers are even pushing higher attack rating with their weapon at 170 than my full Combined Commando adventurer can.

MP's not only are given the best Aimed Shot weapon in game, but you can almost equip it at 170 as well. The agent "equivalent" which does not even come close to the Tigress is significantly more difficult to equip. When the 150-200 alien playfield is open, I assure you there will be 200 Tigress MP's.

For 450 more requirements, you get 19 more minimum damage on the end game 1h Blunt weapon.

It would not be so bad if these "support" profs (if engineers can even be called that) were just able to equip the weapons they are using at title level 5 and 6, but they are even equipping the weapons with 2251 requirements. This is not a fair division of weapons and requirements.

[Xtremtech]

Basically, profession specific items have requirements and performance which are based on the skills budgets available to characters at the level for which the item is intended. This isn't just the case for weapons, it's also true of nanos.

QL220 SL Nano requirements are always around 2050 for green skills, 1750 for light blue skills and 1450 for dark blue skills - whether you're a weapon specialist or not. the difference between Green skill reqs and dark blue skill reqs is 600 points, of which ~300 is covered by base skill and the other 300 comes from other skills budget availability.

Similarly, you'll notice that generally the %NR def check on hostile nanos used by non-specialists is much lower in order to ensure that they have as much a chance of landing them as the nano specialists. Fixer CC nanos have lower NR check because they tend to have lower nanoskills. Similarly, where weapon specialists have debuffs, fears etc their def checks are lowered to give them a chance of landing... but that also essentially negates the benefit of having high nanoskill...

The reality is that the requirements on each nano is set based on the skills budget of the profession at the time they're supposed to use it... and the performance of the nanos is balanced to that level range too. Sometimes they'll put the requirements high enough that you have to stretch to reach them, sacrificing something else to do so.... but it's all based around the skills budgets available to the profession.

are equipping pistols BETTER than the adventurer alternatives with 300+ higher requirements at level 150 to 170

The weapons are not better in the hands of the support profession involved though. The extra AR, Damage add, AAO etc of the specialists ensure that - even if they were using the same weapon - the specialist would considerably outperform the non-sepcialist.

The weapon requirements are tailored to the skills budgets available to the intended profession in the intended level range - and the performance of the weapon is tailored to that profession's abilities at the level for which it is targeted.

At a given level, the profession using it will have the kind of performance that FC want them to have. It will also be as difficult as they want it to be to equip, based on the skills-budgets for that profession.

For example, the tigress is only really good for PvP if you can get enough AS to get the recycle down very low... but althouh a lower level MP might equip the weapon early, they'd never be able to get the recycle down low enough to really make it perform. Note too, that in doing so, the MP also has very low AR so won't get normal hits and loses out on ability to land perks. In reality it's only 210+ MPs that will gain benefit from equipping it... and in doing so and setting up to get the AS down to 11s, they must sacrifice a lot of other stats, normal hits and perks to make it work.

In the hands of a true Bow/AS specialist, who could get massive AS easily without sacrificing heavily on defence (as the PvP MP does) and excellent Bow AR allowing normal hits to land and perks to land, the overall performance of the weapon would be massively better. The requirements and stats on the profession specific weapons are designed to make the performance be what it should be. It may be the best AS weapon in game in theory, but the performance in the hands of the MP will never be the best.


In fact, the only real disparity here is that non-profession restricted weapons really do favour the weapon specialist. Nearly all nanos in game are profession specific and so suffer from the specificity of skills budgets and green skill cancelling stats.

But non-profession requirement weapons don't do this... they always benefit the weapon-specialist massively compared to the nano specialist. When good weapons that don't have a profession requirement turn up, then the nano-specialists suffer and the weapon specialists have a real advantage. It doesn't happen all that often these days as, mostly, the best weapon to use will be the profession specific ones... but it still does happen.

X

[alderwaran]

...

in short:
the skill requirements are orientated to the skill that a given profession can reach with ~medium effort at endgame.
the "betteness" of these weapons is relative to the hidden ar*dmg multiplier for a given profession above 1k ar skill. afair eg mp is 1/10 above 1k so 2k ar skill results in a weapon dmg multiplier factor of 1100 - you may look that up.

[Esssch]

afair eg mp is 1/10 above 1k so 2k ar skill results in a weapon dmg multiplier factor of 1100 - you may look that up.

aka, the worst AR template ingame above 1k

[howlin]

Trader in full artillery + control shotgun buffing alpha symbs and 3 CSS armor parts still needs to drain for the greed of the xan, that weapon should have support profession reqs on it.
Other weapons are ok.

[Notcrattey]

MP's not only are given the best Aimed Shot weapon in game, but you can almost equip it at 170 as well

No, you can't. Not even close. It's a tight squeeze even at 200.

[Gatester]

Nano requirement levels is an issue too. Why should one profession require 2000 nanoskills for their nanos and another require 1300? Just because they can reach those stats does not mean the difference should be so high that you are forced to use nanoskill gear on a nano-focused profession.

My MA, shade and enforcer have a rather easy time casting their nanos, and two of them are atrox. I cannot say the same about my MP.

No, you can't. Not even close. It's a tight squeeze even at 200.

I've got the setup saved in Auno, I know exactly how far away it is for an Opifex MP.




The main issue here is that FC is adjusting stats for the professions rather than making balanced stats based on performance and level. Weapon based professions should have an easier time equipping their weapons, nano based professions should have an easier time casting their nanos. Currently, it is almost the complete opposite.

Saying an adventurer uses pistols better than a doctor is also a poor reasoning for making the requirements significantly higher. Adventurers do not have PVP nukes and Dots to supplement their weapon options, these are things the support professions have to increase their effectiveness. The minute a pistol adventurer can OD an equally geared engineer at 220, I will agree that it is ok.

[Towerblock]

Yeah, but apart from damage.... they will not perform nearly as well unless they are in the possession of the prof they are meant for at tl7. Besides, a well built twink deserves to enjoy its setup. Its in the bible.

[Weltall]

My MA, shade and enforcer have a rather easy time casting their nanos, and two of them are atrox. I cannot say the same about my MP.

What you talking about man?

Autumn Leaves for one is pretty hard to self cast as a MA, as well as some of the DB buffs and such require swapping

Also from what I see, some shade nanos have crazy reqs 2k+ nanoskills to cast

And enfs pretty much require conc isn't that so?

[Xtremtech]

Balance is about the relative performance of the professions. Professions should perform about equally in a given level range.

Professions are given access to weapons and nanos, that in their level range will deliver the right level of performance in order to preserve overall balance.

Requirements are primarily there to choose the level range at which an item/nano can be used.

Given the level range, the stats on profession specific items are set to give the right performance level required... but then in the context of the total toolset of that profession.

So yes, 'support' professions also have pets or nukes or DoTs on top of their weapon damage - but that is what should be balanced by the extra damage that weapon specialists get from their weapons and perks. If a given profession isn't in the right place in the overall balance, then FC looks at the whole toolset of that profession and makes adjustments.

You can't compare requirements or stats on profession specific weapons or nanos and draw from that any meaningful balance statements.

X

[-Klod-]

Now, can someone please tell me why support professions are spoonfed weapons with such low requirements?

I'll explain it to you my dear friend.

That's because I need to cast my 100 pts intel/psy/nano skill buff with 2049 in BM and 1837 in PM, while you need only 639 BM/MC/MM for example, for Infernal Rage.

More clear?

[Camar]

I've got the setup saved in Auno, I know exactly how far away it is for an Opifex MP.

That I would like to see. AS is a piece of cake, but I simply don't see how you would get 1200ish Bow and 370ish Fling at the same time.

[Mekh]

Now, can someone please tell me why support professions are spoonfed weapons with such low requirements?

Because they are not "spoonfed" with massive amounts of support for their weapons in gear, symbs and buffs like other professions are.

[Notcrattey]

I've got the setup saved in Auno, I know exactly how far away it is for an Opifex MP.

I've got the setup for dual chirops at level 5!


Show the setup, or else it's simply lies.

[Gatester]

What you talking about man?

Autumn Leaves for one is pretty hard to self cast as a MA, as well as some of the DB buffs and such require swapping

Also from what I see, some shade nanos have crazy reqs 2k+ nanoskills to cast

And enfs pretty much require conc isn't that so?

A team heal and a final damage buff for MAs have high reqs, for an atrox. I know full well that an NR1 setup Solitus can cast every MA nano with a some effort for the damage buff. Casting a slightly lower buff is also an option with an NR1 sacrifice.

Trox enforcers require CoNC and some nanoskill items unless they have alphas, at which point they only really need CoNC. Nanomage enforcers need hardly anything to cast their nanos.

My solitus has 1600 in two nanoskills and 1800 in one nanoskill without CoNC. The only buffs requiring 2000 are in that single nanoskill and is a 4 hour duration buff. Four quick swaps and I am good for 4 hours.

I'll explain it to you my dear friend.

That's because I need to cast my 100 pts intel/psy/nano skill buff with 2049 in BM and 1837 in PM, while you need only 639 BM/MC/MM for example, for Infernal Rage.

More clear?

Correction 1300ish for Hellish Rage. How does that 700 extra requirements feel? I wonder how engineers feel about having to use nanoskill gear to cast their pets then swap to weapon gear just to pvp...nevermind I know how they feel.

Because they are not "spoonfed" with massive amounts of support for their weapons in gear, symbs and buffs like other professions are.

Yet they have enough skills to use a title level 7 weapon at 150-170. Is there any justifiable argument for why a 170 doctor can use a Dreadloch Pistol?

I've got the setup for dual chirops at level 5!


Show the setup, or else it's simply lies.

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=120329
+39 from a 245 Plunder tower
+33 from a bow contract

Trickle
+15 sense from contract
+12 agility from contract
+9 strength from contract

Given my numbers could be +/- 5 points, and I might be missing gear that would add more skill, that setup should be at 1701 Bow, 919 Fling Shot, and 1113 Aimed Shot. If the Ranger perkline was fully opened for MPs, it would be 1770 Bow.

100 Bow away, 31 Bow away if FC gives MP's the full perkline as they should. That is pretty close to a title level 7 weapon.

Now, would you like to know how far away my adventurer in the same level of gear and twinking is from 2000 pistol and 1600 burst?

[Notcrattey]

I don't consider a 100 point discrepancy "close"

[Scottik]

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=120329
+39 from a 245 Plunder tower
+33 from a bow contract

Trickle
+15 sense from contract
+12 agility from contract
+9 strength from contract

Given my numbers could be +/- 5 points, and I might be missing gear that would add more skill, that setup should be at 1701 Bow, 919 Fling Shot, and 1113 Aimed Shot. If the Ranger perkline was fully opened for MPs, it would be 1770 Bow.

100 Bow away, 31 Bow away if FC gives MP's the full perkline as they should. That is pretty close to a title level 7 weapon.

Now, would you like to know how far away my adventurer in the same level of gear and twinking is from 2000 pistol and 1600 burst?

You should also take into consideration survability of both profs (adv/MP). MP is more squishy in most of situations even with shield.

[Gatester]

I don't consider a 100 point discrepancy "close"

Considering you said close and not me, it is more or less a matter of perception.

When I am 400-500 points away from equipping something of a weaker level, I consider 100 points away not too bad. Almost equipping it means you do not need much more to actually have the weapon on. If you want, I can likely make a 190 MP setup with Tigress equipped or a 200 that has it on much easier.

You should also take into consideration survability of both profs (adv/MP). MP is more squishy in most of situations even with shield.

Why? If anything, I could simply point out that the offenses of a shield+parry stick MP are actually better than a ranged advy at 170. Before any stupid remarks to that, I have done both, so if you want to argue that the craphander+960 full auto with a Jobe pistol against players with 1300+ dodge ranged at a minimum is better than nukes before HHaB, higher static def and NR, and extensive nanoskill debuffing, feel free to try it.

[sultryvoltron]

I think the problem, at least in this scenario, is that Reflex/Twitch has WAY too high Burst reqs (consider how retardedly low Lust reqs are).

I base that evaluation on the same fact as you Gate. TL5 Engis, Docs, Crats, can equip their Dread weapons. Maybe not both, but at least one. So, any 205+ intended weapon equippable by TL5s has too low reqs. If you're not a fan of nerfing twinks, then any equivalent weapon that is NOT equippable by a TL5 has too high reqs (Reflex). We need a little balance here.

[Notcrattey]

Considering you said close and not me

Oh fine then ALMOST mister semantics.