All The Necessary Changes Needed To Balance The Majority Of PvP

[Malaxia]

What you seem to be conveniently forgetting is that the buffs are not removable. As for keeping pets buffed, that is another issue and not one that should be used as an excuse to justify extensively long durations.

They may be long if some crat goes by and debuffs you on the way. But on the caster side, they are not long, they must be refreshed actively. Making them shorter would render them useless. You have to factor nanoresist, long recharges, long cast, nanocost preventing spam...

[Marinegent]

They may be long if some crat goes by and debuffs you on the way. But on the caster side, they are not long, they must be refreshed actively. Making them shorter would render them useless. You have to factor nanoresist, long recharges, long cast, nanocost preventing spam...

They would not be useless. That is an exaggeration, you know it and I know it. You shouldnt be able to just debuff someone one time all "set it and forget it."

In a 1 on 1 situation, you debuff someone a couple times, then get to stunning or rooting or whatever you do. It's hardly like you describe it.

In a mass pvp situation you SHOULDNT be able to keep everyone in the crowd all debuffed at one time.

[X-Styx-X]

looks correct, add this



being Inmune to things , like 110% blind resist , 110% ubt resist , unrootable , nr8 , etc

shouldnt be doable , make a 50% hardcap on Resist Nano. Combined with NR its more then enough.

And NR8 should not be letting u put ur nanoskills into negative
should give msg "bblablablaaa cant go below 0 nanoskills" when u wanna perk more NR but dont have nanoskills.

NR perks is a sacrifice, cant give up nanoskills u dont have imo

[borriss]

looks correct, add this



being Inmune to things , like 110% blind resist , 110% ubt resist , unrootable , nr8 , etc

shouldnt be doable , make a 50% hardcap on Resist Nano. Combined with NR its more then enough.

And NR8 should not be letting u put ur nanoskills into negative
should give msg "bblablablaaa cant go below 0 nanoskills" when u wanna perk more NR but dont have nanoskills.

NR perks is a sacrifice, cant give up nanoskills u dont have imo

Coming from an NT, that makes sense.. But the vast decrease in nano skills are to ensure that no one will ever cast anything while NR perked..

However when you think about it, why is the NR line still in-game..? It's a stupid feature that lets you completely counter one professions entire toolset, like an nemesis perk line.. It only initiates more of the rock paper scissor kind of PvP, which is not good.

But mainly what Funcom needs to tell me is:

What are they balancing the game around? I mean this is the profound question, if you don't know or haven't decided what you'll balance a game around then balancing at all is useless..

Take WoW as an example, the past year Blizzard realized that with all the features currently in the game... It's incredibly hard, if not near impossible to balance the game from a 1v1 perspective.... And I would dare to say AO has maybe 2 or 3 times as many "features" as I call it... With stuns, slows, roots, drains, init debuffs, Specials etc AO is much more complex... And maybe if Funcom launched a sort of playfield or arena system where it made people really love to do some X vs X pvp... Then they could justify (like blizzard did) the slight professional unbalance because it is infact a near impossible thing to do... Heck Blizzard even said in a blue post that it was impossible to balance 2v2, because class balance was not 100% ... Thus focusing the game around 3v3 and 5v5

[Meira]

You have to factor nanoresist, long recharges, long cast, nanocost preventing spam...

Which isn't on any of your red tape. One of them is even 80% nano resist. You have pistol perks, which with over 3000 attack rating, end at 80% checks. They take a Carlos Pinetti, with 4400 attack rating, and deals chemical damage for you to use. There's an interrupt in your lost eden nanos with a recharge of about 1s, included with the 4 red tape and malaise nanos. They've taken that, and added two add all defense auras equaling up to 310 add all defense, to couple with your 2600 add all defense and evades [Even more?] you're already able to achieve. Then, they've taken a weapon with a capable aimed shot cap, and placed it in a way that bureaucrats are able to place it on.

They've then made an area fear, area snares, area roots, and a team 500 add all defense, 410 nano resist perk for you to use.

That's your profession. You don't seem to have much knowledge, in the case of PvP, with it.

[Omutb]

The issue I see in AO nowadays is that each prof has 2-3 nemesis they can't do nothing against, except maybe for a 1 or 2 professions. That's not PVP, it's just frustration, and people leave.

Thats why FC keep repeating the mantra "Team PvP!" over and over.

What you cant tackle alone, you can tackle together as a team.

Of course, when theres 2 opposing teams that negate each others advantages, youre back to square one with "cant do anything against".

What you seem to be conveniently forgetting is that the buffs are not removable. As for keeping pets buffed, that is another issue and not one that should be used as an excuse to justify extensively long durations.

Each professions combat style differs, and what one player finds annoying others find useful.

You think "long" duration removable debuffs are bad, I think being full auto'd or shade-wtf-perk-gnaked is bad.

But theres very little defense against some professions when youre all alone.

They would not be useless. That is an exaggeration, you know it and I know it. You shouldnt be able to just debuff someone one time all "set it and forget it."

In a 1 on 1 situation, you debuff someone a couple times, then get to stunning or rooting or whatever you do. It's hardly like you describe it.

In a mass pvp situation you SHOULDNT be able to keep everyone in the crowd all debuffed at one time.

Agree, anything thats "set and forget" is getting towards the "lazy" way.

But equally, as things stand, nothing is ever going to be changed regarding "1 on 1 situation".

The "obvious" way is for there to be a counter for every offense, even if its from different professions.

As for mass pvp, I dont see why its a bad thing that you can debuff people en masse, provided there is some way for them to counter or remove the effects.

Going on what Malaxia said about having to take things like NR into account, Id be all for short duration debuffs, 10-15s provided they almost always landed.
Failing that, long duration, lower landing rate seems acceptable because its a weakness in the TARGET not the caster.

The fact that NR always seems broken is probably more of the problem than the debuffs themselves.

[Meira]

What you're saying is very familiar to me, Omutb, but as it is now, a Bureaucrat is almost a staple of every raid force. It bolsters a raidforce so much, it's almost too strong in how effective one single bureaucrat is to an entire battle. Totally great variation and everything, but a little too much of a pain tool.

The ability to place 310 add all defense, 200 or more add all offense onto their team. Group fearing, 1400 area snares, 500 add all defense, 410 nano resist perk is a very noticable difference. Especially given that they have piles of add all defense, and large amounts of pet damage. A single bureaucrat targeting a doctor find red tape a little too useful, as a doctor with red tape on him will take 8s casting bodily invigoration.

[howlin]

2. Debuffs and nanos.


Debuffs : All debuffs should be removable, and most should have decreased times on them. 5 minutes of crat debuffs and fixer debuffs while being unremovable is ridiculous and game breaking. Or at the very least, balance breaking.

Drains (in pvp), crat debuffs (in pvp), evade debuffs, etc. All debuffs should have a maximum of 30 seconds when casted on a player. PvM is another story and some debuffs need to be increased in duration or effectiveness against pvm mobs.

I dont see the problem with drains. Sure they are strong, but they are intended to be like that.
Making them last 30 seconds would mean you need to land them 3-4 times at least during the fight.
Fixer debuffs are already to be nerfed so they last what, 10 seconds? Making them useless again. They should last at least 1min but also be removable.

[Omutb]

What you're saying is very familiar to me, Omutb, but as it is now, a Bureaucrat is almost a staple of every raid force. It bolsters a raidforce so much, it's almost too strong in how effective one single bureaucrat is to an entire battle. Totally great variation and everything, but a little too much of a pain tool.

So Ive noticed, usually when I find myself dead very quickly

[Ocene]

People keep saying, do Team PVP, do Team PVP, AO is designed for team PVP.

Well, first of all, AO has not been designed for Team pvp, that's just a workaround to mitigate serious balance issues.

Secondly, there isn't really any team pvp content. There's is Mass-PVP content (NW, Tara) and there is Solo content (BS, duels, new PVP playfield). You could ofc team up to go there, but most people prefer to farm their Solo points, as it's an e-peen thing.

If AO was designed for Team PVP, and FC would enforce it, the solo kills counter would be removed, and only people in teams would be allowed to join BS.

In fact, AO is lacking a AOC-type minigame PVP location, where 2 teams face each other, and you have to be in team or join a team to enter it.

So, no, stop the Team PVP thing.. there isn't any in this game.

[Ciex]

Carlos Pinetti, with 4400 attack rating

(...)

That's your profession. You don't seem to have much knowledge, in the case of PvP, with it.

Crats sticky guide says that carlo has 2-2,2k AR:

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...96&postcount=1

It may be disinformation spread in balancing times ofc as crats are ev0l creatures lurking for more uberness.

[Malaxia]

[...]

Err... you've just proven to me that you don't have much knowledge of my profession. Maybe you should play a crat sometime. Your numbers are incorrect and not related to the subject we were talking about.

I don't know about your doctors but I've done quite a lot of duels against doctors and even with all the init debuffs (incl nuke) on them, they had no problem healing back. It takes over 10s to cast all tapes and malaise, without resist. If the debuffs were 15s long like Workplace Depression debuff, by the time you land a second one the first is (almost) down, and so on.

FYI, Overrule is not a permanent aura, it has a long recharge and very short duration.

[Marinegent]

I dont see the problem with drains. Sure they are strong, but they are intended to be like that.
Making them last 30 seconds would mean you need to land them 3-4 times at least during the fight.
Fixer debuffs are already to be nerfed so they last what, 10 seconds? Making them useless again. They should last at least 1min but also be removable.

The problem is the length. Completely useless for 3 minutes straight. I am not suggesting the positive effect returned the the trader be changed, just the debuff duration. 30 seconds is still plenty. Like i've said before, if you are going to keep someone useless, then you need to be actively doing so.

edit : if 30 seconds is legitimately too short, 45 seconds would have to be the absolute maximum.

[Marinegent]

Err... you've just proven to me that you don't have much knowledge of my profession. Maybe you should play a crat sometime. Your numbers are incorrect and not related to the subject we were talking about.

I don't know about your doctors but I've done quite a lot of duels against doctors and even with all the init debuffs (incl nuke) on them, they had no problem healing back. It takes over 10s to cast all tapes and malaise, without resist. If the debuffs were 15s long like Workplace Depression debuff, by the time you land a second one the first is (almost) down, and so on.

FYI, Overrule is not a permanent aura, it has a long recharge and very short duration.

I suppose a slight change is length is possible. I did say an open discussion. 45 seconds should be more than sufficient then. Remember, you shouldnt be guaranteed an easy time landing every single debuff and have enough time to enjoy a smoke break. If you fully debuff someone and they stay full debuffed for 30+ seconds that should be plenty plenty plenty.

[Mountaingoat]

Which isn't on any of your red tape. One of them is even 80% nano resist. You have pistol perks, which with over 3000 attack rating, end at 80% checks. They take a Carlos Pinetti, with 4400 attack rating, and deals chemical damage for you to use. There's an interrupt in your lost eden nanos with a recharge of about 1s, included with the 4 red tape and malaise nanos. They've taken that, and added two add all defense auras equaling up to 310 add all defense, to couple with your 2600 add all defense and evades [Even more?] you're already able to achieve. Then, they've taken a weapon with a capable aimed shot cap, and placed it in a way that bureaucrats are able to place it on.

They've then made an area fear, area snares, area roots, and a team 500 add all defense, 410 nano resist perk for you to use.

That's your profession. You don't seem to have much knowledge, in the case of PvP, with it.

Carlo (not Carlos) does not have anywhere close to 4400 attack rating, he has about 2250 and CANNOT be buffed with any pet specific buffs except Master's Bidding (he is a "charm"). And before telling others to l2play, you should go check auno/ao universe and make sure your numbers are correct. Speaking about more than just Carlo's AR.

And if we are mentioning init debuffs, how about that unremovable -2,569 init pet debuff that lasts two and a half minutes? Namely Decreptitude. It's better than a calm on pets, since we can at least remove a calm. It also lands 100% of the time. UBT too.

[Omutb]

People keep saying, do Team PVP, do Team PVP, AO is designed for team PVP.

Well, first of all, AO has not been designed for Team pvp, that's just a workaround to mitigate serious balance issues.

Agree, but its all FC have said they are prepared to focus on, even as part of the rebalance.

Why? because its easier to give variety and balance when you deal with a team.

If you try to balance solo PvP, it will end up "rock, paper, scissors" as everyone will be the same.

That said, the rebalance may make solo pvp more "attractive" in that its better than now, but I wouldnt count on it as the ultimate fix for everything you think is wrong with pvp.

However, so far, most "complaints" seem to revolve around how much fun some professions toolsets drain from other professions "fun" in PvP.

Just remember, it does work both ways.

[Marinegent]

And if we are mentioning init debuffs, how about that unremovable -2,569 init pet debuff that lasts two and a half minutes? Namely Decreptitude. It's better than a calm on pets, since we can at least remove a calm. UBT too.

Thinks like UBT and what not are also targeted in my main post mountain. Just because i have not mentioned it doesn't mean that it isn't considered.

Things like Remedy Inhibitor and all those other debuffs should also fall under this. RI specifically has its own issues outside of length, but you understand the idea.

[crattey]

these changes are in mind with NO CONSIDERATION of the current proposed rebalance efforts.

Eh, so in effect, you're saying 'this thread has no point whatsoever'?

Also, for everyone else here; let's stop discussing crats by pulling random numbers out of your arse? Or should I instead read this thread as: "these changes are in mind with NO CONSIDERATION of reality"?

[Malaxia]

I suppose a slight change is length is possible. I did say an open discussion. 45 seconds should be more than sufficient then. Remember, you shouldnt be guaranteed an easy time landing every single debuff and have enough time to enjoy a smoke break. If you fully debuff someone and they stay full debuffed for 30+ seconds that should be plenty plenty plenty.

Only if it affects pvp only then, 1 min max would do it. But you have to admit that 6 minutes of red tape is not very annoying, compared to 2 minutes of fixer evade drain (which cannot be removed as well).

[Shrubberyman]

Sorry Marine, nothing personal, but I don't see the sense of a discussion based on the amazing assumed pretence that nothing has been said nor hinted at in terms of "which way it is going".

To be blunt, it does as much sense as a new thread about how should perks work when SL will finally be released...