All The Necessary Changes Needed To Balance The Majority Of PvP

[crattey]

...

I love how your setup is for a solitus crat, but you actually set it to opifex for the base evades. That's kind of sad, actually...

Also, this thread is about balance in PvP, so posting a PvM crat setup doesn't really help, mate. Not to mention the fact that your numbers are still way off, something that could easily be corrected by ... doing the research. Now stop pretending you have the lsightest idea what you're talking about.

[Marinegent]

I love how your setup is for a solitus crat, but you actually set it to opifex for the base evades. That's kind of sad, actually...

Why is my name there?

I didnt post that.

[crattey]

I just logged in a 220 bureaucrat and debuffed a mob. ...

Seriously? PvM? Yeah, because mobs in PvM behave exactly the same as players do in PvP.

Why is my name there?

I didnt post that.

Correct, I mixed 'em up. Edited.

[Marinegent]

Seriously? PvM? Yeah, because mobs in PvM behave exactly the same as players do in PvP.

Its not exactly hard to land 80% and 85% checks with only a couple of your checks being 100% and from what i could see on auno at a glance none of the red tapes/malaise being above 100%, especially when you have 1650+ nanoskills most of the time. Yeh?

My soldier lands RI with a 90% check and 1300 nanoskills almost first try every time on agents and in the first 2-3 trys on fixers.

[Veebz]

Nano debuff fix:

All debuffs in PvM (With very few exceptions) should be of length 2 minutes or greater. Many should be upwards of 5 minutes in length.

All debuffs in PvP (With NO exceptions) should be of length 45 seconds or less. Many should be less than 20 seconds in length.

All buffs on casters who debuff should stay the same length they are now, with a few being changed in duration (Trader drains lowered by to around 3 minutes, shade drains increased to about 2 minutes)

All debuffs that are cast via nano programs should be removable.

Most debuffs cast via perks should not be removable, because of the nature of perk recharges.

Most debuff recharge times are a bit longer than they should be, and a few have cast speeds that are a bit long, too. I personally think that the majority of debuffs in the game should have a 1 second capped attack speed with a 5 second maximum on the recharge speed. No profession should have their entire debuff toolset (Ignoring roots and snares) take longer than 10 seconds to land on a target, with one exception (Malpractice).

Fears should have lockout timers of at least 2 minutes, ALL of them. A target who is being feared should snap out of it instantaneously with no snare effect the moment ANY offensive action short of being aggro'd is initiated against them. Any debuff, perk action, hit, or even failed nano attack (Which shouldn't exist in the first place) should break fears instantaneously. As it stands, one can be feared and attacked for upwards of 5 seconds before the fear breaks.

Nano resistance is broken in the current way it exists: It functions only as a coin toss in PvP, which insults the intelligence of players who took the time to crunch the numbers and twink their toons, only to be defeated by lady luck. My personal feeling is that NR would be best suited as an active defense stat, which controls the regularity with which a target can remove debuffs on themselves. Eg, free movement stims and viral scanners should require NR skill and not CL, and recharge time should be based on the QL of the items; there should also be a minor nano resistance debuff to the users of removal tools when their NR skill is used, for a short duration. In this way, high NR professions can quickly remove debuffs on themselves a few times. Debuff casters will be forced to spam their debuffs instead of other skills like life taps (traders) and nukes (NTs, Crats). Nano resistance should also have the passive ability of lowering damage from nukes on a target.

In the event that NR can't be modified in this way, ALL nanos with very few exceptions should have a 100% check.

The ideal situation would be someone who really wants to keep a target debuffed should be able to; at the sacrifice of not being able to use some other offensive abilities.

Roots and snares should be considered debuffs with a maximum of 20 second duration for the initial cast, with diminishing returns on every cast after; high level roots should be able to land on a target upwards of 4 or 5 times before they are reduced in duration to a maximum of a few seconds. Someone that is spamming roots or snares should be able to hold off on using those nanos for a certain amount of time, maybe around 1 minute, to refresh the potency of their abilities.

Free movement and viral scanner stims would have to be reworked so they do not always immediately remove any debuff on a target with their first use on a low NR profession.

In this way, an NT/Fixer/Crat/Engi/ who would otherwise be nuking/debuffing/blinding a single target could do nothing but spam roots/snares on the target and effectively keep it rooted with micro length roots while allies kill the target for them.

These ideas are fairly solid if you give them a chance, but the numbers will be nitpicked of course. The numbers are a basis for change; they should all be individually modified to better fit the game and balance needs with time.

[crattey]

Its not exactly hard to land 80% and 85% checks with only a couple of your checks being 100% and from what i could see on auno at a glance none of the red tapes/malaise being above 100%, especially when you have 1650+ nanoskills most of the time. Yeh?

My soldier lands RI with a 90% check and 1300 nanoskills almost first try every time on agents and in the first 2-3 trys on fixers.

The fact that you list your experience as a soldier and think you can now relate to a 'caster' profession kinda goes to show you should stop talking now.

[Spandelero]

Shades?

I am able to kill a Shade? Really? You sure? Ever since the Crat nerf of removing stun procs. I have not been able to kill anyone. Oh wait. I did kill a lvl 200 toon once...

[Marinegent]

The fact that you list your experience as a soldier and think you can now relate to a 'caster' profession kinda goes to show you should stop talking now.

The game mechanics are the same.

a 90% checking nano with 1300 nano skills is harder to land than a 80% checking nano with 1650+ nano skills.

Profession has NOTHING to do with this. It's game mechanics.

[Spandelero]

Here is another fine Crat fact you may not be aware of. With my damage procs running I can sometimes nuke Tarasque for over 10,000 damage with one nuke. The same nuke hits in PvP for 300 damage. Yes, I said 300...

[Weltall]

I am able to kill a Shade? Really? You sure? Ever since the Crat nerf of removing stun procs. I have not been able to kill anyone. Oh wait. I did kill a lvl 200 toon once...

Well that's just you I guess.

When a crat has 3100-3200 AR combined with 11s AS, and 80% perks that actually do hurt quite a bit plus pets with decent AR and MB proc and init debuffs/roots/etc and you can't kill anything well that just says you are a bad crat.

[Spandelero]

Well that's just you I guess.

When a crat has 3100-3200 AR combined with 11s AS, and 80% perks that actually do hurt quite a bit plus pets with decent AR and MB proc and init debuffs/roots/etc and you can't kill anything well that just says you are a bad crat.

I am beginning to think you are correct. I am a bad Crat. I used to do just fine till we got nerfed. I wish my Crat was as good as yours. You must be awesome...

So you are saying that your Crat is soo awesome it needs to be nerfed some more?...

[Marinegent]

I am beginning to think you are correct. I am a bad Crat. I used to do just fine till we got nerfed. I wish my Crat was as good as yours. You must be awesome...

So you are saying that your Crat is soo awesome it needs to be nerfed some more?...

Spande. Player skill is a huge factor, and crat isnt exactly easy to play if you have no idea what you are doing..

Coming from a profession with everything (advy) to crat is kind a big change. You need practice.

[Notcrattey]

I am able to kill a Shade? Really? You sure? Ever since the Crat nerf of removing stun procs. I have not been able to kill anyone. Oh wait. I did kill a lvl 200 toon once...

Clearly this is your issue, not crats in general.

[Weltall]

Yeah just fine with those lolprocs that were 8s and 10s that made your target COMPLETELY useless for that period of time right? Even with 100% stun resist?

Those stun procs were a plague upon AO. Ridiculously overpowered and retarded, good riddance to such nonsense imo.

[Meira]

I love how your setup is for a solitus crat, but you actually set it to opifex for the base evades. That's kind of sad, actually...

Also, this thread is about balance in PvP, so posting a PvM crat setup doesn't really help, mate. Not to mention the fact that your numbers are still way off, something that could easily be corrected by ... doing the research. Now stop pretending you have the lsightest idea what you're talking about.

What you're telling me is almost more justifying what I'm saying.

No research hud.
No extra nanoprograms.
No towers.
No city advantages leaking down into anything.

2776 attack rating.
3575 defense rating.

In a "PvM setup". That would still work amazingly well for PvP, especially when you add an aimed shot pistol, potential scope, you only make more damage, attack rating, defense rating, and such for the bureaucraet.

If we would like to be extra generous, slash 100 evades, saying "It's solitus", as an excuse.

Let's say, you haven't done Xan. Slash another 400 evades.

3075 defense rating.

Then we could add in red tape, malaise, nanite interrupt, 80% check perks, such and such.

Would you like to put your input on this? I think you could use more irrelevance with your replies, it could ****e it up more.

You come empty handed, and tell me to bring you more so I could fill in minor, some of the smallest spots that won't really matter in the long run. I hope you bring more explanations, logic, and reason, rather than asinine and reasonless remarks with your next reply.

Seriously? PvM? Yeah, because mobs in PvM behave exactly the same as players do in PvP.

He's not talking about how he's able to actually cast every malaise and red tape in under 10s (In fact, 8s), or anything of the sort.

You're reasonless, and you're not putting any thought into what you're saying. You seem to be oblivious onto the large picture of this.

[Spandelero]

Spande. Player skill is a huge factor, and crat isnt exactly easy to play if you have no idea what you are doing..

Coming from a profession with everything (advy) to crat is kind a big change. You need practice.

I think I have been playing my Crat a long time. I can always go back to my Advie I guess. You are correct. Advies are very easy. Talk about OP...

[Spandelero]

Clearly this is your issue, not crats in general.

Oh, your Crat is awesome too?

[Marinegent]

Nano debuff fix:

All debuffs in PvM (With very few exceptions) should be of length 2 minutes or greater. Many should be upwards of 5 minutes in length.

All debuffs in PvP (With NO exceptions) should be of length 45 seconds or less. Many should be less than 20 seconds in length.

All buffs on casters who debuff should stay the same length they are now, with a few being changed in duration (Trader drains lowered by to around 3 minutes, shade drains increased to about 2 minutes)

All debuffs that are cast via nano programs should be removable.

Most debuffs cast via perks should not be removable, because of the nature of perk recharges.

Most debuff recharge times are a bit longer than they should be, and a few have cast speeds that are a bit long, too. I personally think that the majority of debuffs in the game should have a 1 second capped attack speed with a 5 second maximum on the recharge speed. No profession should have their entire debuff toolset (Ignoring roots and snares) take longer than 10 seconds to land on a target, with one exception (Malpractice).

Fears should have lockout timers of at least 2 minutes, ALL of them. A target who is being feared should snap out of it instantaneously with no snare effect the moment ANY offensive action short of being aggro'd is initiated against them. Any debuff, perk action, hit, or even failed nano attack (Which shouldn't exist in the first place) should break fears instantaneously. As it stands, one can be feared and attacked for upwards of 5 seconds before the fear breaks.

Nano resistance is broken in the current way it exists: It functions only as a coin toss in PvP, which insults the intelligence of players who took the time to crunch the numbers and twink their toons, only to be defeated by lady luck. My personal feeling is that NR would be best suited as an active defense stat, which controls the regularity with which a target can remove debuffs on themselves. Eg, free movement stims and viral scanners should require NR skill and not CL, and recharge time should be based on the QL of the items; there should also be a minor nano resistance debuff to the users of removal tools when their NR skill is used, for a short duration. In this way, high NR professions can quickly remove debuffs on themselves a few times. Debuff casters will be forced to spam their debuffs instead of other skills like life taps (traders) and nukes (NTs, Crats). Nano resistance should also have the passive ability of lowering damage from nukes on a target.

In the event that NR can't be modified in this way, ALL nanos with very few exceptions should have a 100% check.

The ideal situation would be someone who really wants to keep a target debuffed should be able to; at the sacrifice of not being able to use some other offensive abilities.

Roots and snares should be considered debuffs with a maximum of 20 second duration for the initial cast, with diminishing returns on every cast after; high level roots should be able to land on a target upwards of 4 or 5 times before they are reduced in duration to a maximum of a few seconds. Someone that is spamming roots or snares should be able to hold off on using those nanos for a certain amount of time, maybe around 1 minute, to refresh the potency of their abilities.

Free movement and viral scanner stims would have to be reworked so they do not always immediately remove any debuff on a target with their first use on a low NR profession.

In this way, an NT/Fixer/Crat/Engi/ who would otherwise be nuking/debuffing/blinding a single target could do nothing but spam roots/snares on the target and effectively keep it rooted with micro length roots while allies kill the target for them.

These ideas are fairly solid if you give them a chance, but the numbers will be nitpicked of course. The numbers are a basis for change; they should all be individually modified to better fit the game and balance needs with time.

this plox

[Meira]

Constructive Words

I like this. Looks at things very well.

There are many of those that I disagree with, as with some of the more specific changes you mentioned, and a lot I agree with.

Much of what Marinesold is proposing, most of it is already thought out. Most of it only needs placement (As in, him placing it in his list).

[Hellrule]

Setup in Sig (all selfed)

1879dodge/1864 evade - 1980 AAD selfed.
3844 Def Selfed. I usually have my hhab equipped/ nano control unit in hud2/ and infused nano infuser in uti 1 so less.

So for all the noobs claiming about crat evades yet again, here you are. Only thing I am missing is an ACDC i have no will to try and acquire.

Crat evades aren't terribly great anymore, but we still have solid enough evades for about 40 secs at a time every 2minutes.

But for everyone saying crats are a power house need to learn the profession. Only top twinks can successfully trim ip to use aimed shot/max evades/ and nanoskills. Most Aimed shot crats run around with minimal spending in nanoskills.

Secondly, Aimed shot is already getting nerfed in rebalance as has been stated numerous times. As are the 80% def checks on pistols, which is the majority of these "power house crats" power.

The ability of pets range is also laughable. And I say this full knowing these are exceptions, but every profession end game can effectively evade our pets. I've encountered insane clan evade doc twinks (pets could barely touch), soldiers (extra rare) and of course every other type.

Pets are being rebuilt so this may not be issue later on, but crat pets are not nearly as op'ed as people want to admit. Crats can slaughter any gimp toon, but any properly equipped endgame toon can negate a lot of pet damage and its only with time and persistence can you take it down.

I say all of this as a remod crat. I will never accept crats as an aimed shot user as its a band aid fix and i refuse to use it. Crats require a lot of skill in pvp. I've been several aimed shot crats on my remod one. The best crats I've seen are Sterva and Cratitrus and they do some amazing things in their setups, but are far from the norm.