Nerf the NT strong roots

[Darkirbiska1]

NBG lets a good NT survive the alpha if timed right and lets the NT land 2x CB and a root tho and then run out of range..
emergency kits, nanoregen perks etc lets the NT start fighting pretty damn fast again tho.

To*keep good enf in root is damn hard and only suicude NT will use SI or even next hits to kill you*if*he*has*nbg*cooldown. Nanoregen isn't fast enough and if NT doesn't have nano, he doesn't have defence, no vs /follow,*bash,bash,stun,stun,fear,bash,*bash*enf.

the root has a 25% chance to break on every hit... it isnt cumulative so the roll will be rolled for every hit done on the enf meaning that it rolls 1-100 and breaks on rolls 1-25.
statistically this breaks the root less then every 4th hit.
also.. it doesnt take many seconds to SI then DM an enf and refresh root if it breaks.

Yay to paper pvp! SI means bigger chance to break root=death for NT. SI is only good in the end when enf doesnt have coon, heals, nano, it is ticket into the reclaim for NT, if NT casts SI at start, when enf has everything up, it breaks roots so often, every tick has chance to break root.

secondly what is the damn point of wasting our 5 min heals or our coon when we have no chance of breaking loose from the root.
u would have to be a retard to waste ur BR HoT while rooted by a NT if MoR isnt up

This is difference between good and bad enf and reason why you whine here.

[iolanda]

on a sidenote none of the good nts actually capable of killing a good enf use roots in 1v1 situation because they can easily tank long enough to chew through the hp and defenses

[Brofist]

on a sidenote none of the good nts actually capable of killing a good enf use roots in 1v1 situation because they can easily tank long enough to chew through the hp and defenses

I think you meant to say NS2 NTs.

[-Klod-]

Because they r CHALLANGAR and then you can't use nano-y thingies.

It's only 15 seconds anyways and not like enf needs Challenger to kill a NT today.

Get better.

Well, duh. Same can go for enf.

No, and no, actually.

Yes, unless you are a machine, then no.

[Darkirbiska1]

I think you meant to say NS2 NTs.

Iolanda meant NBS imo.

[Shrubberyman]

So, let’s see now :

yepp NS2/IU NTs arent as common as using doubles in BS.
NBG lets a good NT survive the alpha if timed right and lets the NT land 2x CB and a root tho and then run out of range..
emergency kits, nanoregen perks etc lets the NT start fighting pretty damn fast again tho.

You realize that even under NBG, your stuns still land?
That your attacks can still trigger an interruption?
That we keep getting our nanopool drained every few seconds after NBG?

err not using ur perk actions or every DD tool on the enf is no excuse.
the root has a 25% chance to break on every hit... it isnt cumulative so the roll will be rolled for every hit done on the enf meaning that it rolls 1-100 and breaks on rolls 1-25.
statistically this breaks the root less then every 4th hit.
(…)also if u were alphad by the enf while u had ur NBG up to drain as much of ur nano pool....
THE ENF DOESNT HAVE ANYTHING TO HURT U WITH UP ANYLONGER.

You’re new to this game right?
Not piano-using our perks actions and every DD tool at our disposal is not an excuse, it’s a necessity to control (I know, for an enfo, it can be quite an alien concept) the interaction between our tools. Playing one’s NT like an enfo, just piano-pressing every single button on one’s hotbar then switching to the hotbar 2 is how you get killed in less time than it takes to say “l2p”.
LOL, thx so much for that explanation of root breaking mechanics, I would never had guessed, tru stowy. And sorry if I don’t cry over that “lost” alpha, but you know, by the time I might manage to finish that enfo, his toolset will prolly have refreshed an unhealthy number of times…

Now, for the best part :

also.. it doesnt take many seconds to SI then DM an enf and refresh root if it breaks.

Hmm, how insightful. So let me see, I will suppose that you unwillingly forgot to mention the usual stuff that must land on enforcers before you have even a single chance to beat him, but I’m not a bad guy, so let’s not mention the couple of CBs and roots that have already been needed so far.
In that fantasy world of yours, the NT cast SI on the rooted Enfo. What an excellent idea. So, here he goes, that bold and brave NT, knitting in mid air, and landing SI. SI lands (one hit) immediately followed by the first tick (second hit). Erf, that first tick happens in the recharge of SI. Well, let’s just hope that the 2*25% chance of root breaking did not happen, cause our smart hero would need to recast his root then. A root with 1s attack and 4,58s recharge. Well, mind you, if it did not happen now, it’s bound to happen later: SI is after all A 36 SECONDS LONG DOT WITH A TICK EVERY 1,99S, which just means, but it’s so trivial why even mention it, that not only casting it is 2*25% of breaking the root, but even more fun, that it has the potential to break the root 3 times just during the root recharge if he tried to, how did you so smartly advised it, ah yes, refresh root if it breaks... Yea, that NT of you definitely had a brilliant idea casting that SI, my friend.

secondly what is the damn point of wasting our 5 min heals or our coon when we have no chance of breaking loose from the root.
u would have to be a retard to waste ur BR HoT while rooted by a NT if MoR isnt up wich is on a 15 min cooldown for an enf.
so no it doesnt take 2 mins to break down an enforcer as a NT... IF U KNOW WHAT UR DOIN.

I was an inch close from having the christian charity not to comment on this one, just letting peps draw their own conclusion, then I decided that after all, you were asking for it :

LOL
VICIOUS ENFORCERS WHO DON’T SURVIVE AS LONG AS THEY COULD BECAUSE… well, just because…

Let me mimic you, so much fun : “What is the damn point of wasting NBG or (for NMs) dread coon when we have no chance of countering the enfo alpha? U would have to be a retard to waste DtN while not in defencive focus”…

See now how much sense you make?

yes enforcers are lethal when we get the jump on NTs..
NT are likewise lethal to the enf when they get the jump on the enf.
if u call enforcers highly lethal to u when u get the jump on them u need to practise.
if u land 1 CB on the enf while he isnt prepared he should be rooted long before he can reach u and get his alpha off.

What is sad is that I’m deeply certain you’re serious.
Can NT drop an unsuspecting enfo as fast as an enfo can on a NT? No.
So, does it make “having the jump” an equal tool on both side? Uh, no.
What happens if a NT does a blunder? Splat
What happens when an enforcer does a blunder? “Erf, I need to concentrate on that screen instead of watching pr0n on tv…” :/
You see, you can’t root someone to death. God knows I have tried to root or mezz the loot out of stuff along the years, but it’s definitely doing damage that rip the reward in the end.

yepp the crat root has 10 sec duration and 10 sec CD wich is utterly fail from FC side... roots should be 10 sec duration 1 min CD imo... like they are in most other MMORPGS.. a way to stop the profession to get breathing room.
add the crat snare and AoE root to that and u still have an issue with perma dissabling a toon or rahter a toon that can never catch up.
add also to that the changes in the curve of runspeed wich will make it take longer time to close the 40M gap between the players.

A chance you come to play the highest NR profession ingame with a “close to every CC tools and more” remover every 10s after rebalance then…

errrr...
lol?

yea, indeed, lol

[Shrubberyman]

Why are you casting while the enforcer is on you? This is a critical flaw. Why isnt your root spam casted from 40m away? Why arent you running in the opposite direction while it recharges? If the enforcer is standing next to you to begin with, you have already failed.
Get GSF, run in opposite direction, use CB, land root while running away from the enf. Don't get into rootgraft range. Don't get into the fear range. Doable, and expected from a proper player.

Because he might pop from a lift? Drop from spiral? Or unrecognizable among other red dots all leet-morphed? Getting out of warp? Because he catch me already casting? Because I was filling my nanobar back? Because he just caught me with his still superior run speed? Because his side has GSF and not mine? Because indeed there are root grafts and unresistable fear?
Be serious, being in the same GS than an enforcer is not the proof of a not “proper player”…

One CB. One SL root. Kiting properly, this is going to work a majority of the time. Not every time. It shouldnt be every time.

An enforcer doesn’t get killed by a kiter outside of duels. He gets away. Doable and expected from a proper player?

Or eternally root classes like, say, Enforcers. They should work. They should be escape nanos like intended, or used situationally. I have nothing against roots, or stuns, or what have you. They just shouldn't work 100% of the time, for 100% of a fight, giving 100% chance to win.

And such will not be the case (though it’s something we will be certain of only at the very end of the balancing process). Rage will still break CC and more tools, with perhaps the exception of NTs, but there has to be one situation where your multipurpose tool is not the answer.

[Ninjaloot]

I tried to explain to moon in org chat how ENF>NT in one on one situation... we ended up dueling and he insta splattered me in 2 duels then tried to tell me i suck at NT and dont know how to play lol.

he kept telling me to cast SI but he don't understand that to even land SI i gotta debuff him 2 times and even then it will break the root, which it did in the duel we had lol. with /follow/stunperks/rage/5000runspeed all coming at me while i have to stand still for 2 seconds to cast debuffs one at a time.

/facepalm

[howlin]

omg rebalance quick, someone can root an enfo!

[Jayice]

I tried to explain to moon in org chat how ENF>NT in one on one situation... we ended up dueling and he insta splattered me in 2 duels then tried to tell me i suck at NT and dont know how to play lol.

he kept telling me to cast SI but he don't understand that to even land SI i gotta debuff him 2 times and even then it will break the root, which it did in the duel we had lol. with /follow/stunperks/rage/5000runspeed all coming at me while i have to stand still for 2 seconds to cast debuffs one at a time.

/facepalm

Honestly, if I see an enf running at me full steam ahead, I just run. There's really little or no chance of nailing an enfo 1vs1 unless the guy's an incredible gimp or in a pvm setup.. even at TL5. The cast time cap on debuffs is by far the most annoying thing about the entire encounter. I've said it before once: by the time you land OS/CB x2, the enf will be up on your grill facerolling you in perks and specials. Sure NTs got nbg, but once the effect ends you're royally screwed.

P.S. I don't have a TL7 nt yet, but doesn't rage clear SI anyway? Surely you can't be bothered to cast it over during the enf's rage/challenger cycle when he's charging at ya, right?

[Obtena]

Honestly, if I see an enf running at me full steam ahead, I just run. There's really little or no chance of nailing an enfo 1vs1 ....

Points to much of the problem with the mindset of most AO PVPers. Players that don't leverage their team to be successful in PVP aren't going to be successful as much as they could be. If you are deficient in some aspect of your profession, the least you can do is run with a pack of people and not expose yourself as the primary target in every situation. I don't understand why there is this pervasive expectation that any profession should be able to run around solo and expect some reasonable outcome in PVP vs. any prof they encounter.

[Djiax]

As far as i know enf vs NT goes this way :

- Enf and NT spots each other. NT cast CB whiel running around while enf try to reach target and start the stun / alpha madness *1st opportunity for enfo to finish the fight quick here*

- At 6 seconds, or 9 if a CB has been countered, the NT try its 1st root, with what, 25% chance to be resisted ? If it is, the enfo should proceed to acheive the NT at this point. NT way to get past this stage : MoR, NBG, root graft . . . Note : NBGing that early is bad imo, cause you need it later in the fight.

- at 15/20ish seconds in the engagment, enfo is finally rooted and NT can breath a bit. Now you gotta get enfo's defense down (BR, coon). Spam IU only and refresh the root when needed. This part is safe except when the enfo resist a root / if he uses IS rod or pop MoR whenever the root ends. IU only won't kill the enf, mongo heal + perk heal (little one, not BR) + stim + rerooting mitigate enough of the NT's dmg so that it takes ages to wear down enfo's HP (like several minutes).

- Whenever the enfo used BR and coon, NT proceed to SIing enfo. SI will break the root faster then you can reroot him. At this point NBG is generally needed, and MoR can help if enfos has its stun up. Chain stunning = NT can t get the DD job done.

- SI + nemesis nano (so enfo can't remove the dot) + DM + IU (or double if enfo has rrfe, rember double odds IU on a target with RRFE) + a tripple to finish the enfo should kill decently quick. The enfo has an opportunity again because SI + NT's alpha inc (perk, nuk, DM) = no root in 2 sec. While the NT land its most powerfull DPS against the enfo, the enfo does the same against the NT. If you conducted the engagment right, you should still have NBG up at this point, in which case you should win.

Why not goin for SI + DM + double + tripple as soon as you managed to root the enfo ? Because coon + BR will mitigate way enough damage so that NT's DD can't kill within an acceptable time (SI = no root = enfo bashing on the NT + stuns etc).

Enfo has a strong edge at the start of the fight. The NT doesn't have a chance to take out an enfo quickly, because too much preparation is needed from NT side (CBs, roots, nemesis nano, forcing enfo to use his coon + BR etc). In a long fight, NT has the edge again. Without unbreakable roots, the enfo would have even more time at the beginning of the fight (NT would have to land nemesis nano prior to rooting so enfo can't rage out of the root). NT would have to keep the enfo nemesis'd all the time (losing 1.5 second every 15 seconds in theory, in practice less since you don't want to give the enfo a single opportunity to remove DoT / root, and would refresh more often then that - every 13/14 seconds).

As much as it seems unbalanced from an enfo's PoV once you are rooted and NT carefully keep refreshing the root - enfo still have some opportunity to come in contact and instantly ganking the NT - at most you need to be 2 times in contact, 1st one NT will counter you with NBG, 2nd time you have to kill the NT.

As much as the beginning of the fight seems unbalanced from a NT's PoV, you still have some opportunity to counter the enfo (MoR, root graft + nemesis nano for a quicker CCing, etc).

tldr ; as soon as enfo reckon their chain stunning + giant alpha is totally OP versus NT, we might reconsider the spec root And on a general note, gettin an enfo down with a NT takes lot more effort then facerolling on a NT with an enfo, as it is.

(Now takes a NT with NS2 and it might be perfect balance, assuming the enfo knows how to spot NS2 and hide when it s up - NS2 generally counter the enfo at the beginning of the engagment during which the NT was at a strong disadvantadge in LE nuke mode - At least, you should get the enfo to waste 2/3 perk and land 2 CB before he runs away, gettin the edge at start).

[Obtena]

^^ I think that's a very simplistic model. Unles both players are 1) alone and 2) tabbing like crazy to target, they never spot eachother simultaneously. Someone always has the upper hand to act first and as well, your not having a realistic view of tools in recharge, a siginficant determination in how an enfo acts in PVP. I don't think any 1 vs. 1 situation can be analyzed in this manner, not a realistic one at least.

[Djiax]

To be more precise that's what happen in duels or whenever you spot an enfo alone in BS, yes. Whenever i do spot an enfo i try to taunt him behind a teleporter in a quiet environnment because i need no interference to take him down. Be it an ennemy add or a dumb player from my side that just break my root when i didn t decide yet to DD the enf (because it isn't the right moment). If the enfo focus on me while ignoring the add on my side i am in danger, ofc it depends of the guy which might as well decently help to take the enfo down (2 NT versus en enfo for instance is truly deadly because 2x DM hurts a lot).

For all other situation with multi opponent / messy situation / team versus team, the enfo has the edge simply because the engagment won't be long ; in such an environnment enfo has a lot more opportunities to come in contact and alpha gank the NT then the NT to start his chain of event that will lead to enfo hitting the ground.

[Darkirbiska1]

^^ I think that's a very simplistic model. Unles both players are 1) alone and 2) tabbing like crazy to target, they never spot eachother simultaneously. Someone always has the upper hand to act first and as well, your not having a realistic view of tools in recharge, a siginficant determination in how an enfo acts in PVP. I don't think any 1 vs. 1 situation can be analyzed in this manner, not a realistic one at least.

Dji didn't write simplistic model, but how it works in real PvP Nt vs Enf. Even when NT spots enf as first, enf will reach Nt position faster than you can cast second CB, of course root will be countered many times even with one CB, well NR can be debuffed a lot, but I see message: Target resisted. too often on enfs even without their Motr, nerf advies on their side!


edit:

To be more precise that's what happen in duels or whenever you spot an enfo alone in BS, yes. Whenever i do spot an enfo i try to taunt him behind a teleporter in a quiet environnment because i need no interference to take him down. Be it an ennemy add or a dumb player from my side that just break my root when i didn t decide yet to DD the enf (because it isn't the right moment). If the enfo focus on me while ignoring the add on my side i am in danger, ofc it depends of the guy which might as well decently help to take the enfo down (2 NT versus en enfo for instance is truly deadly because 2x DM hurts a lot).

For all other situation with multi opponent / messy situation / team versus team, the enfo has the edge simply because the engagment won't be long ; in such an environnment enfo has a lot more opportunities to come in contact and alpha gank the NT then the NT to start his chain of event that will lead to enfo hitting the ground.

Yeah, I always see my reclaim closer and closer when some 210 starts hitting SoBA rooted enf, it is weird kind of "help" when 210 does nothing else than only helping enf to break your root and of course it breaks almost immediately.

[Obtena]

For all other situation with multi opponent / messy situation / team versus team, the enfo has the edge simply because the engagment won't be long ; in such an environnment enfo has a lot more opportunities to come in contact and alpha gank the NT then the NT to start his chain of event that will lead to enfo hitting the ground.

Wow, I can't believe I just read that. The advantage in a team-based situation is not simply pre-determined to be in favour of the team that has the enfo. That's just nonsense. AO's PVP system isn't great, but it's not so bad that anyone could make such a simple analysis and conclusion as this.

[RedWatr]

...

Yeah, I always see my reclaim closer and closer when some 210 starts hitting SoBA rooted enf, it is weird kind of "help" when 210 does nothing else than only helping enf to break your root and of course it breaks almost immediately.

hah, man I've yelled at people for "helping" me kill enfs too many times ^^ imo, if you're going to help an NT kill an enf, unload your alpha, then go find something else to do.

[Ocene]

I don't understand why there is this pervasive expectation that any profession should be able to run around solo and expect some reasonable outcome in PVP vs. any prof they encounter.

I'm not expecting perfect balance, but I'm expecting FC to put an end to the nemesis paper rock scissor concept and remove all combats, of which outcome, is simply a matter of 1 or 2 clicks. To me, that seems to be a very reasonable expectation.

[flaminbull]

I tried to explain to moon in org chat how ENF>NT in one on one situation... we ended up dueling and he insta splattered me in 2 duels then tried to tell me i suck at NT and dont know how to play lol.

he kept telling me to cast SI but he don't understand that to even land SI i gotta debuff him 2 times and even then it will break the root, which it did in the duel we had lol. with /follow/stunperks/rage/5000runspeed all coming at me while i have to stand still for 2 seconds to cast debuffs one at a time.

/facepalm

/Thread

It's okay, mr. Moonbolt lost his creditability really loong ago with his weird, off topic posts with random scenarios , paper pvp and false numbers.

And by seeing him ingame, I just facepalm myself everytime I see him complaining here.

Cheers.

[Djiax]

Wow, I can't believe I just read that. The advantage in a team-based situation is not simply pre-determined to be in favour of the team that has the enfo. That's just nonsense. AO's PVP system isn't great, but it's not so bad that anyone could make such a simple analysis and conclusion as this.

I didn't say the advantadge was to the team that had the enfo in general ; i m still in a NT vs enf situation, which means that in the middle of a big mess in BS, for instance, in mid, according the NT focus the enfo and the enfo focus the NT, NT will be much less of a threat to the enfo then the enfo to the NT, simply because the enfo attempt to gank/kill a NT as soon as he decides to, while a NT is delayed in this task for a relativly long period of time (relativly to the fast pace of medium to big pvp battle). The quickest a NT can attempt to start DDing an enf decently is to go for 2x CB (like 7 sec averaging counter), then SI (5 sec), nemesis nano so SI isn't removed (1.5 sec), then finally start DDing true coon + BR while the enfo is on the NT since 10+ seconds, delayed the NT in its execution with stuns/fear, forced NT to NBG since NT didn't go for the root way. At the point NT starts DDing you got 10ish seconds left on NBG and prey for someone from your side to DD the enfo as well.

Goin for no preparation, only 1 CB then chain IU (IU @ 50% NR check, so you don't have to do the 2nd CB SI requires) is laughable DDing against an enf, and requires mass DD assist from your side.

Goin for the rooting method like you would in a 1 vs 1 / 2 vs 2 in a quiet environnment is at risk that some person from your side constantly break your 5 second cast root, but assuming noone goes after the enfo it is still the best thing to do in my opinion, and focus your DDing on some other target against which NT are far more efficient (mostly anyone else cept doc)

So yeah enfo has the edge, and with ease.

PS : Forget to add that enfo's defense have a better multi target efficiency then NT defense, which also come into play. What defense exactly ? Layer. 17K layer on enfo side versus 1.3K on NT side. The other multi target friendly defense would be evade, but considering static evades + AAD buff on enfo side, versus slighty higher static evade on NT side and mass blind on NT side, it's still at enfo advantadge. Single target AAO debuff (perk) + single blind isn't multi target friendly, if you see where i m goin.

PPS : there are of course some exception, like 2 NTs versus an enfo, where you will notice that the synergy of 2 NT working together is godlike