Worrying trend with the rebalance (and FC in general)

[Neista]

Caveat. These thoughts only concern PvM.

Ive been thinking about this for some time but with the crat nano changes its finally crystalised.

FC doesnt want us (any profession) to have a toolset.

Ok, what i mean by this is they dont seem to want us to have the ability to use our toolset to affect the challenge of encounters, the crat init debuffs are a classic example of this (perhaps they are OP but they are not so much being nerfed as taken away) but to name some more: Rooting to avoid fear in Texx/12 man, boss mezz to control CC-resistant adds (the 60 sec cooldown and terminate on death will see to that), bosses warping us to them with unremovable roots, Shades in collector that warp back to prevent mezz/root/snare control and the forthcoming 'cooldown added to just about everything' which makes sense in pvp but in pvm amounts to a massive nerf.

Ok now about the toolset, just look at recent encounters like The collector. Our CC toolset is thrown out the window in favor of making us the the kick we are given for that instance only. DB1 only way to remove debuffs is to run to a pillar. DB2 must kill towers/jump onto cloud. Dreadlochs, adds are CC immune and can only be boss mezzed (a nano which Means revealed his contempt for some patches ago) or killed and Albtraum, bosses (and some mobs) proc debuffs on you with no resist or remove possible.

My point here is in all these cases (and in others) FC is taking out toolset and preventing us from using it, making us do these encounters in the way they decide they must be done and punishing any innovation with a smug little 'fixed several exploits' in the next patch. Excuse me but i thought innovation, tactics and clever ways of using our toolset was what challenge was all about. I'm not talking about situations where people have found a way of making a mob defenseless so it was easy to kill, i mean situations where a problem was overcome not in the way FC expected it to be so FC stamped on that method of solving it.

It's starting to seem to me that the rebalance is going to end up neutering everyones toolset so things can only be done the way FC decides they will be done and all innovation and cleverness will be replaced by mediocrity.

What i would like to see is FC trying to work more within the framework we have and give us mobs/instances/encounters that we can (and perhaps) must use our toolsets on instead of nerfing them and creating artifical challenges with artifical solutions

[Hellrule]

I agree if many ways. At most teams are just going to replace a dd or crat with an extra doc, and a nt if rebalance hits us hard. People hated int debuffs for 'dumbing down' pvm, and it did, but it made most encounters in this game flexible. instead of requring a doc/enf/crat you could grab an advy,agent or even a keeper in some instances. but funcom is wiser than I.

[Hvyshadows]

I felt the same way about my crat when they took away our stun procs. While I would certainly much rather have them back, it didn't affect my soloing ability all that much or my desirability in teams.

I'm sort of on the fence on the latest changes. I realize that the driving force for "re-balancing" was originally to resolve the huge gap between professions in PvP. But I agree wholeheartedly that if that was the original focus, it has changed dramatically as we see documentation get released and realize just what it is that Funcom is doing. Personally, I think that they have finally realized that given the power of today's end game players, they simply cannot devise instances that will be sufficiently challenging that they require anything more than a crat, tank, doc. So, rather than keep whacking at it, they are going to water down the power of today's players. Crats are not the only ones getting the nerf. The PvM enfo tank after rebalancing is going to be vastly different than the PvM enfo tank of today. Much less HP, holding aggro will be much more challenging, etc, etc.

At this point, I really don't think we can predict what's going to happen after all of this gets implemented. I hardly think that crats will get relegated to the bottom of the team food chain, though.

[Vgman01]

Its a good thing the way they are doing it. If they balanced instances around player utility they would insainly more difficult then they currently are. Take crat debuffs atm for instance. Could you imagin if fc decided to balance an incounter around that? They would have to buff boss dmg by 50-60% or so making the instance damn near impossible without a crat. Making an instance impossible (or much harder) without a certian prof is a very bad idea, look at 12m. Its incredibly hard to get a team going simply because their arnt enough keepers to go around and almost no one wants to do the instance without one. Simply put we dont currently have the playerbace to allow player utility to be considerd into an acounter. For now testing a players ability by making them quickly run from point to point is good enough. And its not like that is insainly easy either, ive seen a lot of screw ups in the handfull of miitarrs/db1/db2 ive actualy gotton invited to.

[Xtremtech]

This ISNT ABOUT CRATS, its about a trend in FC to ignore/nerf all profession toolsets rather than build encounters around them.

Could you give me some examples of this. I'm having difficulty seeing what your thought is driving at and perhaps some more examples would help me to understand it better.

X

[Neista]

Could you give me some examples of this. I'm having difficulty seeing what your thought is driving at and perhaps some more examples would help me to understand it better.

X

Did you not read the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of my original post? i thought i gave some decent examples there. How for example are unremovable roots from boss warps or Albtraum mobs that proc unresistable/unremovable debuffs a crat issue?

Just look at the instances i mentioned, each one has to be completed by using a toolset unique to the Instance wether it be a Kick mechanic or running to altars to cure debuffs. I'm talking about challenges that can be overcome using skill and the toolset we (and by we i mean all proffessions) have and not situational cures to situational issues.

[Neista]

A good example of an Encounter done right is the Keeper of Tortured Souls, sure he spawns adds that can be killed by a bomb but they can also be killed by the team working together to root/snare/kill them while keeping them off the tank and doc.

[Neista]

The point i am trying to make is that FC seems to have given up on our toolsets and is nerfing their pvm effectivness while concentrating on their use in PvP. Means seems to resent people who solve an instance in any way different to his prewritten rules of How It Should Work and ruthlessly stamps on it instead of encouraging people to innovate and solve problems in their own way. What i would like to see is well thought out encounters that can be manipulated in different ways by different professions rather than requiring either Specific actions such as running to a platform or hinging on one ability that has little use anywhere else (Collector Kick, or Keeper anti fear in 12 man).

[Xtremtech]

I honestly don't care about whether something is a crat issue or not... what I'm not getting is why you feel that FC is tending toward nerfing or ignoring profession toolsets rather than build encounters around them. And I honestly don't understand how that relates to the introduction of cooldowns.

I think that what you might mean, in the first part, is that FC has been using some kinds of 'immunity' or resistance to some player effects in order to structure more difficulty into content. I can see your point to an extent. But I think it's quite restricted to tools that tend to make content trivial in a very black and white way. Calms are classically one of those tools. If they can land... then that content tends to become extremely easy.

If I look at your example idea of something to replace it, where you have to draw away a mob, in order to calm it away from the others, which would otherwise break the calm... well if you can split a mob off like that, why wouldn't you and your team/raid group just kill it anyway? Why would you want to calm it? That's how most players would deal with that mob if they could split it off from the others. And if you don't split the mob off, how is other mobs breaking the calm really that much different from the mobs having resistances or immunities to the calms in the first place?

Look at it from another perspective. When a group of mobs can be calmed and kept calmed rather than attacking the team... then aggro management, damage debuffs, init debuffs, damage mitigation, AAO debuffs, healing etc are all nerfed in importance. If those mobs are immune to calming, then a whole range of toolset options become much more important.... you could argue that the design actually promotes wider usage of profession toolsets. And tactically, things tend to get more complex when it isn't possible to neutrallise portions of the content, which makes for player initiative and creativity being more of a factor.

I can see that mobs doing lots of debilitating debuffs that are unremovable other than by doing some trick specific to that instance, might be seen as being less involving for player toolsets. Is your thought there, that really the player should be using Virus Scanners instead? Frankly, I'm not sure why having an item or mechanic in the instance that allows you to remove the debuffs is really that different... and I'm not at all convinced that having such an instance specific remover is really nerfing or ignoring profession toolsets.

I dunno... I think I can see the point that you're trying to make... but it does seem to come from a particular perspective.

There are difficulties in creating content that has real variety and uniqueness to it in games like this. In general, players tend to boil content down to the simplest possible tactic which tends to ignore a lot of profession toolsets too. If FC succeeds in making some content that is individual and has some quirkiness by introducing instance specific tactics and tools and by including immunities and resistances to some parts of our toolsets... well then maybe that's a good thing. You might not want absolutely all content to be built that way - some people like the good old fashioned 'calm the adds and crank up damage' type content after all.

X

P.S. I still don't really see how cooldowns fit into this discussion....

[Prevention]

Lets not talk about exploits and keep the thread on-topic.

[Neista]

P.S. I still don't really see how cooldowns fit into this discussion....

Ok one example, soloing Inferno Dynas. Fixer/crat runs into a pack of mobs, roots or snares or calms them and kills boss. Spammable CC is kind of the crux of the issue, cooldowns prevent that from happening and [stuff not to be mentioned in pande aside] its hardly game breaking that they can do this. The mobs are readily CC'able.

So a cooldown pretty much breaks this use of the toolset, hard to stop 10-15 mobs in good time if you can only cast one CC every 10 seconds or so. Ok this is zero issue on my 220 fixer or crat as (assuming Conflagarant spirit for example) i can easily survive the adds and kill the mob with them all beating on me, but take a lower character who cant survive those adds, he needs to be able to spam his CC fast to get the mobs off him, after all thats how his toolset works.

The cooldown make sense in pvp but in pvm it just weakens the toolset further. OFC this might be the very core of the rebalance i remember wincing at the awful politician-speak from the devs about this 'We are not discouraging soloing, we are encouraging teaming'. But dynabosses aside, the flexibility of crowd control (which according to Means would be 'Shorter but More Dynamic!' (More politican doubletalk) will be severely affected. Ok have the immune to CC mobs that i mentioned earlier but for goodness sake let us continue to be able to CC the ones that are suseptible.

[Moonbolt]

how about the crat runs in and AoE calms the mobs since the AoE calm now will work in SL.
or the fixer AoE snares the mobs.

[Neista]

and it if fails 15 or 20 seconds cooldown for the mobs to annihilate the fixer/crat while currently both nanos are spammable (3 second recharge for crat aoe calm, 5 sec for fixer aoe snare).

Whatever way you look at it thats a nerf. Its like....now everything is 1/1 anyone can instacast these nanos without effort or twinking but everyone is stuck with the same (longer in the case of AoE's at least)cooldown thats not affected in any way by skills, equipment or perks. Its encouraging mediocrity...

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'm all for crats getting a PVM nerf. I agree with xtremetech.

I think a lot of the PVM encounters we have right now are awesome, in fact, I am really enjoying some of them again, like DB1, 12 man and others.

I think some of them could be a bit quicker to complete. The only other thing I'd like to see is better overlapping of toolsets. The whole PVM crat thing is an atrocity. There isn't one instance that can't be done more easily with a crat.

I don't know what needs to be done to make crats more neutral, but I think it has something to do with the init debuffs. IMO, the malaise line is so OP'd already, and I think it should be removed, period. Take that away, and take it away from docs as well. Leave only the smaller init debuffs in game, and make -init perks that much more useful.

If UBT+malaise was out, you'd have MA's, enforcers, advies, and shades becoming more integral to slowing the damage a mob could do, instead of the "grab a crat and win" situation we currently have.

[Ocene]

I'm all for crats getting a PVM nerf. I agree with xtremetech.

I think a lot of the PVM encounters we have right now are awesome, in fact, I am really enjoying some of them again, like DB1, 12 man and others.

I think some of them could be a bit quicker to complete. The only other thing I'd like to see is better overlapping of toolsets. The whole PVM crat thing is an atrocity. There isn't one instance that can't be done more easily with a crat.

I don't know what needs to be done to make crats more neutral, but I think it has something to do with the init debuffs. IMO, the malaise line is so OP'd already, and I think it should be removed, period. Take that away, and take it away from docs as well. Leave only the smaller init debuffs in game, and make -init perks that much more useful.

If UBT+malaise was out, you'd have MA's, enforcers, advies, and shades becoming more integral to slowing the damage a mob could do, instead of the "grab a crat and win" situation we currently have.

Then why do you invite crats in teams ? There is no obligation to have a crat in a team if you think the said crat will make it too easy. I mean, docs + enfos make PVM a breeze, probably more than crats, should they be nerfed too?

Get a MP instead, with a trader for tanking, and agent for DPS, and an advy for heals, you'll have fun.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I do lots of stuff without crats, but, you can't deny the prevailing perception that crat PVM is easymode.

When every main and his alt have a crat rolled because they make every encounter significantly easier, you don't have a profession bias, you have a profession necessity.

It's not necessity because they are needed, it's necessity because every other nub out there thinks if we don't have a crat, we can't do it. Don't tell me you haven't met that guy yet?

A good example of an encounter where you don't need a crat is DB2, even though most people think a crat to calm the adds is very useful. I've done it several times without, and with just as much success.

By utilizing mechanics and environment (high platforms) you can easily get rid fo adds by careful manipulation of adds pathing. The actual effect of a crat on the encounter is questionable, once you get rid of the adds.

So, wtb more encounters like DB2, to provide opportunities for people to succeed without the "easymode" on.

Also: wtb better self buffs for crats and lose the heroic measures... like, seriously. 410 AAD+ presence perks makes crats way too in demand for evade profs. Like, make it 150 aad or soemthing but it's way too much currently. Even advy mother wolf/leader of the pack is too much. 176 evades at level 165 is a huge benefit.

It's time to make evade profs evade profs, and make tank profs tank profs, but, making a tank prof an evade prof by getting RI+motivational speech+wolf, is retarded. an enf can easily get upwards or 4k Evades with the right combination of people in team, combined with malaise+UBT, and reflects, real damage output of a mob is like 0.5% of original damage output.

The only danger a team actually faces these days is the 1.3 seconds between pop and when 5 debuffs land on him.

[Ocene]

I still think that nerfing crats won't help MPs or Agents (and I'm sure others) find a team.

The root of the problem is not crats being OP in PVM, it's the 2-3 profs that have no role in PVM, crats or no crats.

Back when Means announced Collector, I warned in BIG FAT LETTERS, careful , you have a chance to allow more profs to be desirable there. People shut me down saying every prof would have a role in there.

Not only it's not true, except for this kicker thing, but teams never changed in Collector, it was the same sold+crat+doc etc layout.

MPs are still LFT for it...nvm agents, they all /terminate.

Fix the profs, crats have nothing to do with it.

[Esssch]

Get a MP instead, with a trader for tanking, and agent for DPS, and an advy for heals, you'll have fun.

It's discouraging that you give everyone a role to make things harder, except for MPs basically just bring an MP and it's automatically harder

[Ocene]

It's discouraging that you give everyone a role to make things harder, except for MPs basically just bring an MP and it's automatically harder

MP was first in that list ... even though the list is of great sarcasm.

[Esssch]

MP was first in that list ... even though the list is of great sarcasm.

I know, but you gave everyone else roles. Like trader for tanking, agent for DPS, advy for heals, then...just MP.