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Thread: Worrying trend with the rebalance (and FC in general)

  1. #21
    Ocene: the point I was trying to make is this:

    We all agree crats have 1/4 of the "easymode" toolset
    Docs have 1/4
    Solds/engi have 1/4
    enf have 1/4

    you put those 4 together, and you have PVM easymode right? that is unquestioned, so, what I'm saying is this:

    take away a bit of healing from docs. (being done I think via nano cost, possibly depreciating returns on BI, etc)
    take away a bit of tanking ability (being done I think via changes in nano changes for enfs)
    take away a bit of the reflects provisions for solds/eng (dunno about this)
    take away some ability of the crat to uberize the team, via malaise, AAD/AAO benefits, and

    then you got yourself a 4 man team which don't work. Now, you got the chance for an MA or trader or advy to provide secondary healing again. you got a MA or enf or shade to provide damage mitigation via red dusk/incapacitate/stuns/stun procs/ other init debuffs, you got a chance for MP's to do damage mitigation by NSD, and they should get a -nano init debuff, and nano drains, etc. An agent could step in to provide something... dunno what though..

    you get my point. Nerf enf/doc/crat/sold and you got a situation where other professions are needed... not WANTED, but required, or the raid is fail, and thats what we need to have inclusion.

  2. #22
    Ths thread smells of whine.

    Honestly Im sorry that your easy mode crat is being nerfed, but Im getting sick of waiting around in teams where we wait for a 210 crat with the 200 bot to come and init debuff the mob back to ado heckler danger levels.

    210-220 RK missions with 150-200 froobs is so far the most challenging and fun encounters Ive had in this game, outside of doing some fun combos in arid/db/mitaar/vort.

    Maybe once all the rebalance is done, they will go back and adjust encounters to suit the new toolsets/dynamics of the classes.

    Hopefully with an eye that monsters that have 4000 inits and hit 1/1 with 10k crits and 2 million HP were brought upon by 50k hp enforcers, BI spamming doctors with unlimited nano and crats that debuff inits by 2000+
    Last edited by MassDebater; Sep 21st, 2010 at 06:17:47.
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  3. #23
    The Cooldown issue is a separate one really. It's not about content design.... but you're right that there is a nerf to all crowd control, that it can't be spammed as easily. But again - I'd say that this will increase usage of player toolsets generally. I'd also say that it will focus CC users on their nano-skill attack ratings.

    One of the great difficulties with calms in particular - but all crowd control to some extent - is that it tends to trivialise PvM content. Calming takes so much difficulty out of PvM content, that it becomes trivial. Even rooting can take a great deal out of many mobs, since most mobs are melee or primarily melee. Calming in particular has the difficulty of being very black or white. That is it either completely removes the danger from content or it has no effect.

    What the cool-downs and durations do, is make the content more unpredictable to an extent. What happens if the AoE calm doesn't stick on all mobs or when the single target roots don't stick? Well then the rest of the team have to deal with the remainders. That may be through various professions using their single target crowd control of course. Or maybe the Crat roots one of the stragglers and snares another so that in 10 secs when his calm has cooled down he can calm one of them too and root the snared one etc... With the new system all these nanolines can be used much more swiftly because the long nano recharges are gone.

    So in fact, you could say that crowd control would be more a case of using your wider toolset. It might also use more of the other team member's crowd control to help out.

    But let's say that some mobs in a group aren't crowd controlled at all. Then other team mates help with the stragglers through the tank or pets off-tanking some mobs and perhaps traders and others (inc crat pets after rebalancing) will debuff NR to help out... but it may also be through healers using their team heals, debuffers (inc crats) using their tools to reduce the threat of the mobs still free, Defensive buffers using their team absorb perks to protect the team from the multiple mobs etc etc... The Crowd Controllers will have removed some of the danger... but not necessarily as much as before.

    Maybe we also see traders running team wrangles more often (and people making NCU free for it) and maybe we'll see casting professions really twinking their nanoskills up. The cooldowns mean that all professions who use hostile nanos will need to ensure that they have the best possible nano-skill attack ratings - something a lot of players slack on at present in favour of weaponry and other statistics.

    Honestly, if what you want is player involvement and wider usage of player's toolsets, then the cooldowns are a great way to nerf the excessive power potential of crowd control. It makes it less black and white. It allows other toolsets to be used to help deal with the content. But it doesn't remove the usefulness of crowd control entirely.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Sep 21st, 2010 at 07:48:02.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich
    you get my point. Nerf enf/doc/crat/sold and you got a situation where other professions are needed... not WANTED, but required, or the raid is fail, and thats what we need to have inclusion.
    You're wrong. Nerf docs, you'll need 2 docs. Why bother with some secondary healer that performs worse? Unless enfs/docs/crats/solds are severely nerfed, you will replace enf/doc/crat/sold with enfs/docs/crats/solds.
    Honestly, they should've left the lovechilds alone and turn everyone into lovechilds. One expansion and two booster packs later, making an SL encounter as challenging as it was at launch is stupid.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by drops View Post
    You're wrong. Nerf docs, you'll need 2 docs. Why bother with some secondary healer that performs worse? Unless enfs/docs/crats/solds are severely nerfed, you will replace enf/doc/crat/sold with enfs/docs/crats/solds.
    Honestly, they should've left the lovechilds alone and turn everyone into lovechilds. One expansion and two booster packs later, making an SL encounter as challenging as it was at launch is stupid.
    qft

    The problem IMHO isn't power of crat init debuffs (also I admit they're too strong and some nerf is in place), but inefficiency of all other CC/debuff tools. We got mobs with pure CC immunities (no calm, no snare, no root ever), not only bosses, but normal mobs too. All SL things got 100k AC (makes AC debuffs useless), aliens got no AC (again make AC debuffs useless). Damage debuffs from MP are useless in case of mobs hitting for 5k+. Fears with static psychic check result in practical immunity too.
    The right way isn't nerfing crat/doc/enf abilities to make them useless, but revamp toolset of other profs to be on par with them. We got 14 professions, but only 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 buffer/debuffer, rest are too much behind them.
    RK1: Amickson 220/30 ENG - equip, Aztea 220/30 MA - equip, Adirae 220/30 ENF

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by MassDebater View Post
    Ths thread smells of whine.

    Honestly Im sorry that your easy mode crat is being nerfed, but Im getting sick of waiting around in teams where we wait for a 210 crat with the 200 bot to come and init debuff the mob back to ado heckler danger levels.
    So, if you REALLY want to make things harder, like you (and quite a lot of people in the forums) say, why would you invite a crat to your team in the first place? Just do the encounters w/o crat and replace the doc with MA or trader as your main healer and there you have your difficulty!

    It really seems that all this balancing thing we've seen so far, is aimed to balance PVP and make PVM a lot harder. (Personally i don't care a bit about PVP and wish FC would stop forcing us PVM'ers to go to BS). While i do agree that PVM is easy at the moment, i also think that with the low numbers of people in the game at the moment, it's not a good idea to remove the ability to do the endgame encounters with 3-6 people.

    Even as a crat or a doc, you don't automatically get beast / tnh / 12m or other endgame raid teams so easily as some folks on the forums make it sound (except org teams ofc, but if you try to get a team trough /lft, you can sit there for hours without a single invite). And that's because there is so many encounters to do and too few people playing the game. (And it seems that most vocal people here in the forums don't even play anymore, yet they still scream for nerfs without really knowing how things are in-game these days).

    If things are made harder, we need a lot more people playing the game. And that won't happen over night, even IF the engine actually comes out some day. The current low population is spread way too wide to make nerfs like the removing of crat init debuffing ability! (Yup, it's pretty much removed since anything worth debuffing is immune to ubt line and the -250 from IRT is random and seems it won't even stack with the -100 from RT). Well unless Shades -init proc is removed too it seems shade is the only one that can debuff the bosses after this, even if the proc is still based on random rolls.
    Aeliniyah Opifex Doc | Venkula Solitus Doc | Rohtoiivari Trox Doc | Yutheron Solitus Trader Ianamura NM Crat
    Technigyro Trox Enfo | Gizmoplex Trox Keeper | Icarya Opi MA | Vinetto Opifex Shade | Retku Solitus Engineer
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    And a fleet of other alts...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoapTarder View Post
    its funny how AO requires so much grinding and effort to make any progress, both ingame and in Development

  7. #27
    Why are people still whining about crat init debuffs? If you actually read the crat docs you'll see that they are already getting nerfed. Malaise ( which has never been stackable with UBT) is being moved in the same line as UBT so it'll be resistable by most bosses, workplace depression nuke init debuff is being changed to a nr debuff, and tape nanos are gonna be less effective b/c of the random roll. So all you whiners can go find another profession, that you don't play, to whine about.

    One of the things i think the OP was talking about was the uselessness of CC in most of the lastest endgame encounters. Crats in particular have nothing but init debuffs and aad/aao auras to bring to a team b/c of the fact that FC insists on making all new content immune to CC ( not counting the 45sec boss mess ). Arid is a good example of where a crats toolset is practically useless. I quit playing my crat for awhile after LoX came out b/c of the uselessness of the majority of his toolset.

    As far as the cooldowns go, i don't think they're gonna be as bad as some people think. It will make some situations harder but still manageable i think. Blitzing rk missions is gonna be less easy b/c i usually just run through spamming aoe mezz but im sure i can manage with the singles.

  8. #28
    It really seems that all this balancing thing we've seen so far, is aimed to balance PVP and make PVM a lot harder.
    This simply isn't true. It's very clear that the major change in the MA documentation was the introduction of the Zazen defensive stance, which is quite clearly a PvM focussed change. Most nano documents have included changes that specifically targeted PvM; for example, the keepeer reverse knockback got a shorter cool-down in PvM than in PvP, hostile nano durations have been differently set for PvM (e.g. fixer snares, Crat roots), there's taunt improvements for pets which is a PvM change etc.

    If you look back at some of the comments from Devs, you'll also notice that they have often talked first about PvM when making posts about the changes. There are some changes that are clearly primarily targetted at PvP and there are some that are clearly targeted at PvM... but on the whole, the changes are targeted at both areas together.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Sep 21st, 2010 at 10:05:04.

  9. #29
    Zazen - pure pvm solo ability with lots of sacrifices. Still nothing in range of doc's healing, useless for groups.
    Crats inits in UBT line means mob's UBT immunity applied.
    Change to roots/snares - adding local cooldown (no more chaining). This seems to me like big pvm nerf for survivability of such profs.
    Enf's PVM tanking abilities got a huge nerf (in HP and taunt area)
    All in all, I see nothing what can be seen as improving pvm abilities, but nerfs instead in the name of pvp.
    RK1: Amickson 220/30 ENG - equip, Aztea 220/30 MA - equip, Adirae 220/30 ENF

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    This simply isn't true. It's very clear that the major change in the MA documentation was the introduction of the Zazen defensive stance, which is quite clearly a PvM focussed change. Most nano documents have included changes that specifically targeted PvM; for example, the keepeer reverse knockback got a shorter cool-down in PvM than in PvP, hostile nano durations have been differently set for PvM (e.g. fixer snares, Crat roots), there's taunt improvements for pets which is a PvM change etc.

    Yep... like keepers actually need a reverse knockback in PVM... very useful. How often do you see mobs running AWAY from you? (Not talking about greys since they can't outrun anyone anyway, not that higher level mobs outruns anyone either).

    I have to admit that most of the changes in perk and nano documents released so far, looks promising. BUT, general consensus seems to be that PVM is currently too easy, and must be made harder. And that is clearly visible from the nano changes we've seen so far (and we've been told that healing will be nerfed which WILL make things significantly harder and/or require more doc's in teams). And that worries me, not because i like it easy, but because WE DON'T HAVE THE PEOPLE IN GAME FOR BIGGER TEAMS! (That's something that the forum population who haven't been online during the last 6-12 months doesn't propably know).
    Aeliniyah Opifex Doc | Venkula Solitus Doc | Rohtoiivari Trox Doc | Yutheron Solitus Trader Ianamura NM Crat
    Technigyro Trox Enfo | Gizmoplex Trox Keeper | Icarya Opi MA | Vinetto Opifex Shade | Retku Solitus Engineer
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    And a fleet of other alts...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoapTarder View Post
    its funny how AO requires so much grinding and effort to make any progress, both ingame and in Development

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Amickson View Post
    Zazen - pure pvm solo ability with lots of sacrifices. Still nothing in range of doc's healing, useless for groups.
    Crats inits in UBT line means mob's UBT immunity applied.
    Change to roots/snares - adding local cooldown (no more chaining). This seems to me like big pvm nerf for survivability of such profs.
    Enf's PVM tanking abilities got a huge nerf (in HP and taunt area)
    All in all, I see nothing what can be seen as improving pvm abilities, but nerfs instead in the name of pvp.
    QFT.

    Local cooldowns will indeed make soloing with CC professions w/o heals (such as crat) a lot more difficult.

    I almost forgot the nerf that enf's are already getting to their tanking ability. Add to that the possible incoming nerf to nanodelta and relatively high nanocost on enf nanos, and the inability to spam layers anymore, and that's a HUGE nerf in PVM tanking capability.

    Also to the people who think that nerfing Docs, Enfs and Crats will make other professions more wanted to teams, NO, it won't. If one doc is not enough healing, people will invite two DOCS, not advys, ma's or traders. Same with CC, if one crat is too busy doing the calm, root, snare thing - they will get another crat, not something else. IMHO, nerfing the best healer/CC/Tank is the wrong way to balance things. Bringing the lesser healers/CC/tanks up a bit would be far better.
    Aeliniyah Opifex Doc | Venkula Solitus Doc | Rohtoiivari Trox Doc | Yutheron Solitus Trader Ianamura NM Crat
    Technigyro Trox Enfo | Gizmoplex Trox Keeper | Icarya Opi MA | Vinetto Opifex Shade | Retku Solitus Engineer
    Geraplex Trox Sold | Tuulispaa Opifex Fixer | Wertion Solitus MP | Kemoplex Trox MA
    And a fleet of other alts...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoapTarder View Post
    its funny how AO requires so much grinding and effort to make any progress, both ingame and in Development

  12. #32
    All in all, I see nothing what can be seen as improving pvm abilities, but nerfs instead in the name of pvp.
    Nerfs in the name of PvP?

    How is moving Crat init debuffs into the same line as UBT helping PvP? In fact, it primarily helps the MP in making their damage debuffs more useful in PvM. And it helps with PvM balance. You yourself say that Zazen is about PvM not PvP. How you think Enf taunt changes is designed to improve PvP I don't know... Changes to roots and snares included maintaining the long durations for PvM, shorter cool-downs for PvM versions of crowd control etc... there's plenty of focus on PvM that isn't about PvP balance.

    Aiming at PvM balance with these changes doesn't mean that things won't get nerfed. There will be improvements in some areas and nerfs in other areas... as with any balancing effort. But that has nothing to do with PvP.

    As FC have already done in various parts of these changes, it's not difficult for them to make separate changes for PvM and PvP on the same nano/perk. The idea that PvM is being nerfed for the benefit of PvP balance is really just a nonsense.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Sep 21st, 2010 at 11:05:45.

  13. #33
    Yep... like keepers actually need a reverse knockback in PVM... very useful. {and other stuff about nerfs on the PvM side}
    I'm not saying that some of the changes aren't directed at PvP. I'm saying that some of the changes are directed at PvM too. So reverse knockback may not be wildly useful in PvM (though I think you'll find there will be some cool uses of it there) - neither is Zazen wildlyl useful in PvP. FC are looking at both PvM and PvP in this rebalancing, so some things will be good for one and others good for the other.

    I'm also not saying that there aren't any nerfs in there to PvM toolsets. I'm saying that the changes are not being made primarily for PvP and then having an unintended nerf effect on PvM.

    FC are clearly considering both PvM and PvP effects when they're making their changes. That's why they've split many of their changes with different values and different nanos for PvM and PvP.

    X

  14. #34
    Also to the people who think that nerfing Docs, Enfs and Crats will make other professions more wanted to teams, NO, it won't. If one doc is not enough healing, people will invite two DOCS, not advys, ma's or traders. Same with CC, if one crat is too busy doing the calm, root, snare thing - they will get another crat, not something else. IMHO, nerfing the best healer/CC/Tank is the wrong way to balance things. Bringing the lesser healers/CC/tanks up a bit would be far better.
    If a person building a team will always take only the best healer - a doc, then they'll always only take a doc, no matter how much closer other healers get.

    If a person building a team will only take two docs, when 1 doc isn't quite enough healing... then they'll always only take two docs - no matter how much closer other healers get.

    "Bringing lesser healers up a bit" simply wouldn't work.

    But I think you're wrong. I think that if there's content where a doc's healing just falls short a bit, going for another doc is overkill. Going for a lesser healer who is also bringing much more DD to the mix would be a much better option than taking two docs.

    I also think that, for a great deal of content, people will build a team without a doc sometimes if there are two decent secondary healers and no docs available. Or maybe an MA in Zazen, with all that extra healing available.

    X

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech
    I'm saying that the changes are not being made primarily for PvP and then having an unintended nerf effect on PvM.
    Cooldowns got introduced primarily because of the PVP and are nerfing PVM. Why? Because of some "nerf that, prof x kills me/I can't kill prof x" QQing.

  16. #36
    Cooldowns got introduced primarily because of the PVP and are nerfing PVM.
    I don't believe that this is true either. It is perfectly possible to make the recharge + cooldown on a nano be exactly the same as it was before. The cooldown system doesn't have to change anything at all when applied to a nano. If they wanted to, they could make it the same as before... but they change it intentionally to slow some things down.

    Different cool-downs have already been given to PvM and PvP versions of nanos. There's no reason why a given cool-down should affect PvM unintentionally. FC have made conscious design choices to affect both PvM and PvP - and they have their balance reasons for doing so.

    Cooldowns enable a lot of cool stuff. Like mixing together more different types of nanos without having to worry about recharges stopping them. It will enable NT nano weaving etc. It enables a level of control and balance and new tricks that couldn't be done with the old att/rech on nanos alone. It will bring benefits for both PvM and PvP.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Sep 21st, 2010 at 11:34:18.

  17. #37
    Local cooldowns will indeed make soloing with CC professions w/o heals (such as crat) a lot more difficult.
    I challenge this statement.

    If you calm a mob and the calm doesn't land, with the old system, you have to wait 2.5 secs before you can try again and hope that your nano AR does better than the first time against the same mob. In that 2.5 secs the mob has closed on you and may already be beating on you because he's in melee range.

    In the new system you can try to root him after 1 second, with a bit better chance at landing it due to lower NR def check. That may hold him far enough away that he isn't beating on you. That's already a potential gain on the old system. Note too... if you'd tried the root in the old system, you'd have had to wait 4+ seconds till you could cast something else, but...

    If the root didn't stick in the new system, then you also still have a chance of landing a snare after 1 second more. You'd still be in recharge with your old pre-cool-down Calm nano... and the snare may slow the mob down enough for you to at least prevent a chunk of damage that he would have been doing. With some luck he'll be slowed down enough that your calm cooldown will have run out by the time he gets to you. Or these other options may give you time to get a pet onto him and build up some aggro, so that the mob's not hitting you by the time he reaches you...

    So, in the space of time that you'd have been able to cast one calm in the old system, you'll be able to cast a calm, a root and a snare in the new system (and still have time to cast one more nano). You have more chances at preventing the mob reaching you and delivering damage if the first calm didn't stick. Casting that Calm, root and snare in the old system would have taken 11.5 seconds of recharge... but in the new system it's only 3s of rechage.

    If the mob is standing on his own, then you could even maybe start off with an AoE calm, then try the single target calm, then the root, then the snare in just 0.5 secs more time as you could have tried a single calm followed by a recast calm before.

    This is the benefit of the cool-down system. It allows you to use more of your tools more closely together. By separating the re-use of the nano from the recharge, players are able to mix stuff together more easily, thus using more of their toolsets. And that also allows FC to balance elements more separately without the recharge on one nanoline messing up the rest of your toolset.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Sep 21st, 2010 at 12:13:18.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    ...Stuff...
    So did you actually check what the cooldowns are in those CC nanos?

    AoE Snare 30s
    Single target Snare 10s
    AoE Root 20s
    Single targer Root 10s
    AoE Calm 20s
    Single target Calm 2s

    So it seems that the single target calm is still spammable enough. Rest of those not so much. The example you mentioned changes a bit with these cooldowns in mind. You can stil use every one of those once - and after that, almost all of them will be still in cooldown. Except the single calm, which seems to be even more spammable...

    Oh well... Anyway after these changes hit live (if ever) the PVM side will require so much bigger teams for every encounter that it WILL be damn hard to start any activity in game with the low population we have.
    Aeliniyah Opifex Doc | Venkula Solitus Doc | Rohtoiivari Trox Doc | Yutheron Solitus Trader Ianamura NM Crat
    Technigyro Trox Enfo | Gizmoplex Trox Keeper | Icarya Opi MA | Vinetto Opifex Shade | Retku Solitus Engineer
    Geraplex Trox Sold | Tuulispaa Opifex Fixer | Wertion Solitus MP | Kemoplex Trox MA
    And a fleet of other alts...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoapTarder View Post
    its funny how AO requires so much grinding and effort to make any progress, both ingame and in Development

  19. #39
    Yes, I know what the cool-downs are. Single target calms are mostly 3.5 seconds or more - let's not make this all about only high level players. Only the top one is 2 secs. And only the nano recharge stops you casting something else from a different nanoline. All of the CC nanos have a 1 second recharge.

    So in the time it used to take to cast a calm and wait for the recharge before casting another (~2.6 seconds)... you could now cast the calm and a root and a snare and something else.... mebbe a fear.

    You have more options of using several nanos from different lines in a given time period because the recharges on all the nanos are so low. In the time it takes to cast a root and wait for recharge, the new system would let you cast the same root, a calm, a snare, a fear and an init debuff, for example. There are distinct advantages in being able to do that.

    If none of them stuck, then frankly your nano AR needs to be better to deal with those mobs. You'd still be stuck uselessly spamming your calm while the mob beats on you, if your nano AR is that bad.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Sep 21st, 2010 at 12:41:14.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    I challenge this statement.

    If you calm a mob and the calm doesn't land, with the old system, you have to wait 2.5 secs before you can try again and hope that your nano AR does better than the first time against the same mob. In that 2.5 secs the mob has closed on you and may already be beating on you because he's in melee range.

    In the new system you can try to root him after 1 second, with a bit better chance at landing it due to lower NR def check. That may hold him far enough away that he isn't beating on you. That's already a potential gain on the old system. Note too... if you'd tried the root in the old system, you'd have had to wait 4+ seconds till you could cast something else, but...

    If the root didn't stick in the new system, then you also still have a chance of landing a snare after 1 second more. You'd still be in recharge with your old pre-cool-down Calm nano... and the snare may slow the mob down enough for you to at least prevent a chunk of damage that he would have been doing. With some luck he'll be slowed down enough that your calm cooldown will have run out by the time he gets to you. Or these other options may give you time to get a pet onto him and build up some aggro, so that the mob's not hitting you by the time he reaches you...

    So, in the space of time that you'd have been able to cast one calm in the old system, you'll be able to cast a calm, a root and a snare in the new system (and still have time to cast one more nano). You have more chances at preventing the mob reaching you and delivering damage if the first calm didn't stick. Casting that Calm, root and snare in the old system would have taken 11.5 seconds of recharge... but in the new system it's only 3s of rechage.

    If the mob is standing on his own, then you could even maybe start off with an AoE calm, then try the single target calm, then the root, then the snare in just 0.5 secs more time as you could have tried a single calm followed by a recast calm before.

    This is the benefit of the cool-down system. It allows you to use more of your tools more closely together. By separating the re-use of the nano from the recharge, players are able to mix stuff together more easily, thus using more of their toolsets. And that also allows FC to balance elements more separately without the recharge on one nanoline messing up the rest of your toolset.

    X
    Ok, question, are you 100% sure Calm/Root/Snare will have individual cooldowns rather than a single 'Crowd control' cooldown? ive looked but havnt found confirmation either way. I must say i agree that being able to calm then root then snare is interesting and would actually improve use of CC toolsets but if it is a single cooldown affecting all 3 its a pretty serious nerf, way overboard imo.
    ALTS: Alienhunter, Moonglum, Quellist, Quellcrist, Jesharet

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