Want to fix tl7 pvp?

[Obtena]

Here again you put words in my mouth. Never once have I yet said HOW the range should be adjusted. You made the astounding leap of logic that the range should be 1-225 yourself.

My point was that it's irrelevant if you change the range for AS damage in PVP. AS works from Max damage. The only chnage you could make to the damage range that would affect PVP AS damage would be to increase the max damage. That shows just how much thought you put into your premise that AS pistol needs a nerf because it has no damage range.

As for the rest of your post, it's word games. I don't see anything in there that gives good cause to remove or nerf AS pistol.

[Kopecz]

You certainly love using the word irrelevant and I wonder if you even understand the meaning of the word. So let me put it simple enough terms that you should be able to understand it:

Want to keep 225-225 (100)? Then increase the equip requirements and/or increase the attack/recharge so it cannot be capped at 11 seconds and/or <insert other RELEVANT drawback> just like EVERY other weapon with a damage spread of 0.

That doesn't meet your expectations? Then ... and here's where it's important to pay attention ... change the damage range, part of which should include LOWERING THE MAX DAMAGE and putting it closer in line with every other 1H AS weapon. And just so you don't think I'm being too heavy handed with my "nerf" the damage range could be changed to 175-175 or <insert any damage range with a max damage below 200 and above 150>. That's still better than the much lamented craphander amirite?

Can I possibly be any more clear on that point? Is there any way that you are going to try to put words in my mouth or attempt to brush off more of my points? Have you even noticed that since page 3 you are the only one attempting to defend the existence of a weapon that you admit is abnormal?

[Obtena]

I think your point is rather ridiculous. Zero damage spread doesn't make AS pistol some 'special' class of weapon where it needs to conform to some 'zero damage spread' weapon rules that you simply invented to make your point. As an AS weapon, it's max damage is rather low, even if it's easy to get 11 second AS recharge. That's a conscious decision on FC's part I'm sure. Lower it more? Why? It's low enough as it is. Are AS pistols somehow outshining their rifle and bow counterparts in AS performance? I don't think so. I'm not dumb. You just want to make it suck just enough that peopel still use it, but can't hurt you with it. That's clever ... but it will still be better than absolute crap right so it's OK? Not really. What's good for a AS nerf on AS pistols is just as good for a n AS nerf of rifles, bows, etc... I don't care how you want to nerf AS pistol, the same logic will always apply just as significantly, if not more for weapons that are giving people even BETTER AS performance than the pistol.

AS pistol has just as much drawback as any other weapon in it's class. Imposing more difficult restricitions on it just to make it less effective PVP weapon is not a solution to the fact that AS generally just doesn't scale properly in damage, recharge, etc... on any AS weapons. Fixing AS addresses recharge over ALL AS weapons, as it should be. AS recharge is broken, but you only need to fix it for the pistol because it's a less than awesome PVP weapon for a less than awesome AS user? Yeah. I get your point and it's nonsense.

[Brofist]

The only class it has no drawbacks on is an advy. And no one likes advies anyways.

[Kopecz]

I think your point is rather ridiculous.

Frankly, you think any point that is not your own is ridiculous.

Zero damage spread doesn't make AS pistol some 'special' class of weapon where it needs to conform to some 'zero damage spread' weapon rules that you simply invented to make your point.

Zero damage spread does make it a special class of weapon which currently does not conform to the "rules" that FC has implemented for a weapon of its specification in the past. It also does not conform to the "rules" of its class of weapon (pistol) in giving it only 1 weapon requirement for use. I did not invent the historical evidence.

As an AS weapon, it's max damage is rather low, even if it's easy to get 11 second AS recharge. That's a conscious decision on FC's part I'm sure.

Appeal to an authority is yet another logical fallacy. It does not a debate win.

AS pistol has just as much drawback as any other weapon in it's class.

Then name the drawbacks. I've already showed your last supposed drawback, multi range, to be invalid. There is no other drawback. It's a supported weapon with no drawbacks of its own and does not force drawbacks on a setup in order to crowbar AS on.

I've given you 3 different strong, logically valid arguments as to why the Troa'ler should be nerfed or removed and you have yet to show how any of them are actually invalid. If my argument is not, in fact, invalid then it is logically valid and therefore true.

[Kopecz]

. And no one likes advies anyways.

Agreed. And I have an advy. But as I just mentioned to Obtena list the drawbacks. So far Obtena has been unable to do so.

[Obtena]

I'm done being academic with you. it's quite irrelevant if I don't care to match your skills in argument. The argument itself is lost and you don't 'win' simply because I won't joust with you. This isn't about winning. It's about making some sense.

It's always going to come back to this: Whatever is good for the goose is good for the gander. If AS pistols needs a nerf because of it's AS damage in PVP, so does every other AS weapon that out performs it. There is NO way that AS pistol is so OPed in the hands of the majority of it's users that it needs a nerf, but other weapons that are better than it in the hands of same or more skilled AS users do not.

You can try to be clever and 'classify' AS pistol as a special case because it's zero range damage, caps at 11 seconds or even if it's made by Gnomes that live in the side of a mountain. No classification at the end of the day matters when you stand in front of an opponent and take capped, 11 second ASes from a mediocre weapon in the hands of an average skilled AS user and wonder how that happens. And your conclusion is that the weapon needs a nerf? Why? Because you used a super sophisticated method to identify the cause of this uber PVP performance is the result of average weapons in the hands of average users? That's just comedy. AS scaling is just wrong. It was implemented when no one even achieved capped AS in duration and damage. It needs to be adjusted with re-balance, just like scaling of other things that were implemented in that era of AO.

[Anarchic1]

considering how agents need AS to actually kill anything anymore at tl7, keep that in mind

[Obtena]

Agent's offensive toolset, in general, is crap. If that was addressed (it is), then I don't think the over reliance on AS would be as necessary.

[XenonDe]

It's silly that this thread is still going. Whether the AS pistol is or isn't over the top, it does not matter. AO has been AS Wars long before the AS Pistol and funcom already stated that they want to move away from AS wars and AS reliance. They even stated the pistol is a bandaid fix until that happens.

The discussion about the AS pistol is purely academic at this point. FC has plans for AS and AS will change. I'm sure there are a few people who like the old way but they made up their mind and are convinced the majority wants to move away from AS too. It's too late to try to avert that so I suggest you focus on the changes to your profession that will help you after the change.

Agents are the only special cases here and FC has already stated that they will get a different or additional change to AS to keep it effective for them.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Then name the drawbacks.

...

Nicely done kopecz.

I think you and Obtena just sorted this whole thing out for us.

Obtena, I'm sorry, but in my eyes you lost this argument, despite parading and saying that kopecs lost.

Denying him an answer on this MOST fundamental, pivotal point is recognition, in my eyes, that you've just nailed the entire argument on the head:

There are NO drawbacks to the AS pistol.

There are NO other one handed, short recharge, high min damage, high max damage, crit modded, single weap skill, fast attack rate, good modifier weapons OFFERING AIMED SHOT SPECIAL [[[[[[[OTHER THAN THIS ONE]]]]]]]]] In game.

Period. end of story, can someone please remove this damn weapon so I can enjoy TL7 PVP again?

It's a fu*king farce, and it's SO old.

[Obtena]

There are NO other one handed, short recharge, high min damage, high max damage, crit modded, single weap skill, fast attack rate, good modifier weapons OFFERING AIMED SHOT SPECIAL [[[[[[[OTHER THAN THIS ONE]]]]]]]]] In game.

Actually it's a TRAVESTY that these professions have had to go so long WITHOUT a supported AS weapon in PVP. The only reason you don't recognize it is because your blinded by the fact that that it's unreasonable for such a weapon to exist.

Your right, you guys win because I don't care how good you are, you can't argue with flat out lying ... LAWL at 225 being HIGH max damage. Fast recharge? It's no faster than any of the older AS weapons these profs were using before it. 1.5 seconds is pretty AVERAGE actually. It's funny you refer to high min damage. The min damage isn't high either. In fact, it's lower when compared to other pistols these profs use ... some OLD pistols at that. Hell, these are just facts ... you can go look it up on the database. I don't even need to argue with you about it. YEAH, this pistol is SO OPed. FC please remove this pistol so that the gimps can enjoy PVP again.

The fact is that this pistol is just average. That's right. Stats-wise, it's an average pistol ... that has AS for PVP. That fact it performs so well in pvp is simply testament to the fact that AS is F'ed Right up. That's all. It was more scary to see people using the OFAB Tiger than this thing ... it was a hell of alot easier to cap AS damage with.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Other (one handed) AS weapons have pretty significant drawbacks, such as very low max damage (ABC), moderately low max damage (craphander)

Obviously the craphander has a large crit and fast recharge as well, which is obviously why it's the next most popular choice.

I agree, though, that the pistol itself isn't the only problem, it just happens to be the icing on the cake, in this case, which has made all the other weapons which have AS special look like squirt guns.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The only reason you don't recognize it is because your blinded by the fact that that it's unreasonable for such a weapon to exist.

You're trying to discredit my logic by attempted abasement. But, I'll try to answer the closest thing you've got to an argument here...

Lets see what you've got.

Hmm, you're right. It is definitly unreasonable for such a weapon to exist. Which begs the question: why does it "exist"?

As I recall, it was an attempt at a "band-aid" "fix" by FC, who's director of PVP in AO was tired of being a ranged advy who never died but also couldn't kill anyone, because, simply, he sucked ass, and wanted to be able to faceroll everyone and his dog, and the opponents entire team while just spamming specials and running in circles.

Right? ok, so, theres the reason it exists, and so, now, every half decent player who has adopted this pistol is now a wrecking ball, right?

And the proliferation of so many wrecking balls in game has improved it somehow, right?

Which is why you keep arguing?

Or what?

I suspect you'll provide some long winded tangential response outlining why AS is the problem and not the AS pistol. Right? But, Now, maybe we can look back at previous point which is that there are no other one handed Aimed shot weapons in game with no DRAWBACKS. So, the corollary point to this is that OTHER weapons with which you can use the aimed shot special also require some adjustments: such as swapping (bows/supernova), very low normals (ABC), another weapon skill and lower MBS (craphander), few other specials (Bows, rifles).



So, now, don't waste your breath.

[Obtena]

You're trying to discredit my logic by attempted abasement.

Not sure what else to say at this point really. You have resorted to lying about how awesome the stats on the pistol when they aren't much better than any other average pistol these profs are using. OK I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually had not informed yourself of how great this pistol is. I suggest you compare Troa'ler to the offhand pistols that Doc's Crat's Engis and Advy's are using ... and come back here and tell me how 'awesome' it is again.

Your funny if you think this AS pistol is a wrecking ball, while ANY other AS weapon these professions used before it are not. That's just ignorant of the fundamental problem with these professions using AS. Almost any other AS weapon in these profs hands had more umph than this thing does.

[Kopecz]

Actually it's a TRAVESTY that these professions have had to go so long WITHOUT a supported AS weapon in PVP.

I smell a red herring

Your right, you guys win because I don't care how good you are, you can't argue with flat out lying ...

I also smell ad hominem.

LAWL at 225 being HIGH max damage.

Is it or is it not higher damage than a craphander? If the answer is yes, my argument still stands and is valid.

Fast recharge?

Is it or is it not faster than 2/2? If the answer is yes, my 2nd argument still stands as it has no drawback to the damage spread.

The min damage isn't high either.

The min damage has nothing to do with my argument and is therefore fallacious considering how much time you spent trying to tell me how min damage doesn't matter, but it is, in fact, in line with some endgame weapons (i.e. Twitch Pistol) and has a higher MBS than Dreadloch Balanced Freedom Arms and Dust Brigade Engineer Pistols. These are just facts.

That fact it performs so well in pvp is simply testament to the fact that AS is F'ed Right up. That's all. It was more scary to see people using the OFAB Tiger than this thing ... it was a hell of alot easier to cap AS damage with.

I'm not arguing AS mechanics, I'm not even arguing how well it performs in pvp. I'm arguing the existence of the pistol in and of itself and this is your 2nd red herring in a post. But, since you bring this matter up again I'll ask why aren't professions using the OFAB Tiger still? The answer is simple: They had to crowbar Bow into their setup. Troa'ler Pistol has no drawbacks and you have still yet to demonstrate otherwise.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Not sure what else to say at this point really. You have resorted to lying about how awesome the stats on the pistol when they aren't much better than any other average pistol these profs are using. OK I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually had not informed yourself of how great this pistol is. I suggest you compare Troa'ler to the offhand pistols that Doc's Crat's Engis and Advy's are using ... and come back here and tell me how 'awesome' it is again.

Your funny if you think this AS pistol is a wrecking ball, while ANY other AS weapon these professions used before it are not. That's just ignorant of the fundamental problem with these professions using AS. Almost any other AS weapon in these profs hands had more umph than this thing does.

I invited everyone I know using an AS pistol to adopt the craphander for PVP.

Guess what the answer was?

"You're funny"

Course, they spelled it right. So, If I'm funny for thinking it's a wrecking ball, but I'm also funny for asking them to give it up, which one is it?

Sorry, Obtena, I tried that, and I got laughed out of a few duels. But, needless to say, I did harbour the same sentiment as you, for some time. I thought: the pistol isn't the problem, it's AS. And, by the way, I did already answer this question for you in the last post.

As for your incredulity about my saying the AS pistol has high max damage and high min damage, well, I don't think I need to remind you that the AS pistol has the highest (by about 100 damage or 80%) max damage of the next best (craphander) one handed weapon offering the aimed shot special.

So, while you're considering that, I'll ask you this: what did you expect? a higher min damage pistol with lower max damage? i think they've attempted to do exactly that, but, you can have any higher min damage without raising the max damage, as obvious as it sounds, your incredulity is ill founded. you can't have higher min damage while still making the AS pistol comparable with other endgame pistols min damage. Therefore, yes, the AS pistol has high min damage AND high max damage, given the specials offered. (note the qualification).

If you still can't figure out how that works or still find the logic or the assessment incredulous, I'll refer you to a grade 4 mathematics text where "Greater than or Less than" chapter is covered in excrutiating detail.

[sultryvoltron]

AO has been AS Wars long before the AS Pistol and funcom already stated that they want to move away from AS wars and AS reliance. They even stated the pistol is a bandaid fix until that happens.

Agents are the only special cases here and FC has already stated that they will get a different or additional change to AS to keep it effective for them.

Problem is they're doing it wrong, and they probably don't have plans to remove the AS pistol since Genele thinks "Advys should use AS".

Also, uhh... the proposed changes so far to fix Agent offense is slowing down some key perks, speeding up some useless perks (thank god!), we still will have the most predictable "alpha" ever since SU works as a red flag to throw up defenses, chain AS (our reliant PvP damage) is slated to be sodomized as a special, and the addition of.... burst-esque damage. Yeah, that'll.... help?

Actually it's a TRAVESTY that these professions have had to go so long WITHOUT a supported AS weapon in PVP. The only reason you don't recognize it is because your blinded by the fact that that it's unreasonable for such a weapon to exist.

It's a TRAVESTY that melee weapons don't have AS. It really is just AWFUL that those poor Enfos have to struggle through the PLIGHT OF NOT HAVING a supported AS weapon for PvP. Oh lordy, what are they to do? Oh wait, that's as stupid as what you said...

No, it's a TRAVESTY that these professions need an AS weapon to perform in PvP. It's a TRAVESTY that ANY profession needs a special that can never miss to perform in PvP. It's a TRAVESTY that for a long time people would gimp their entire toolset so they could equip an item that let them press 'O' every 11s and OMGWINZOR!!!!!!!!1111111oneoneone.

It's by no means a problem that professions don't have an AS weapon to spam on. In fact, that's what profession diversity and specialization is all about.

The fact is that this pistol is just average. That's right. Stats-wise, it's an average pistol ... that has AS for PVP. That fact it performs so well in pvp is simply testament to the fact that AS is F'ed Right up. That's all. It was more scary to see people using the OFAB Tiger than this thing ... it was a hell of alot easier to cap AS damage with.

It's not an average pistol. An average pistol would not have AS at all. There's only six different pistols in the entire database that do. That's not average. In fact, that's extremely rare. Check auno. See if you can spot the Troa'ler Pistol. Here's a hint: it's nearly twice as high damage as the next highest weapon with 6 different reqs and it's two-handed!. It's also three times as powerful as this weapon, twice as powerful as this one and this one makes me lol.

The fact that it performs so well is indeed proof that AS is OP'd. You can take a crap weapon in the hands of someone crappy with AS and do good with it. Does that mean AS should be fixed properly? Yes. Does that mean the AS pistol should be removed? Well it's a one of a kind bandaid weapon, so yes it should.

On a completely different note: using Tigers raped setups hard. Using Caterwauls was dumb enough that FC prof locked it. Using an AS pistol just... gives AS for no reason.

[Johnnykay]

Almost any other AS weapon in these profs hands had more umph than this thing does.

That must be why all of them ditched their old weapons to use it, right?

[sultryvoltron]

. . . when you stand in front of an opponent and take capped, 11 second ASes from a mediocre weapon in the hands of an average skilled AS user and wonder how that happens.

Seriously... you claim it was me that was talking about AS capping everytime from the AS pistol?