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Thread: Breed-balance...more gaps an option?

  1. #1

    Breed-balance...more gaps an option?

    I feel some of the uniqueness and benefits to breeds has diminished a little due to endgame buffs and itemization. Thats my experience, that the diference between the breeds is negligible.

    How would bigger gap (trox with higher hp, etc) between breeds affect balance?

    Not meaning special perk-actions and things here.

  2. #2
    That even less players would choose Nanomage and it would truly become Atrox Online?

  3. #3
    MR is still unique .

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Malosar View Post
    That even less players would choose Nanomage and it would truly become Atrox Online?
    Depends, having nanoskills could be relevant or other bonuses of nanomage.

    Atrox would also have weaknesses in inteligence and trickle.

  5. #5
    The differences still exist at end game. The main change is that with all of the equipment available to a 220 toon, the weakness of the breeds are not nearly as significant. It is now possible to equip all end game items (alphas, armor, weaps, etc.) regardless of breed.

    The advantages to the different breeds are still there, it's just that they are not as significant as they used to be. For instance, my Soli enfo has somewhere around 68K HP fully buffed at 220. The fact that a Trox enfo with exactly the same equipment has 76K doesn't really make that much of a difference in PvM raids. But Trox will still have more HP at end game than any other prof, Nanomages will still have more NP, and Opis will still have more evades. As far as leveling goes, the advantages and disadvantages are still pretty pronounced as anyone that has rolled a Trox for a profession that relies on nano skills can attest.

    Personally, I think the fact that at end game the minimal advatages between the breeds gives more diversity, rather than less. Let's face it, if as a Trox you could not cast your top heals as a doctor, why would you ever want to roll that combination? Or if you were a Nanomage that could never get above 30K HP, why would you ever roll an enfo with that breed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunfytr View Post
    I have played my toon 280 days. You have played ur toon 36 days. My toon is better. Get over it.

  6. #6
    Thats a pretty good point

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Hvyshadows View Post
    The differences still exist at end game. The main change is that with all of the equipment available to a 220 toon, the weakness of the breeds are not nearly as significant. It is now possible to equip all end game items (alphas, armor, weaps, etc.) regardless of breed.
    For alpha symbs, that's definitely not true for some of the profs out there.

  8. #8
    I think most of us agree MPs are ONE of the weakest professions at the moment.

    I think most of us can agree atrox has strong advantages over nanomage.

    I see a path here, Nanomage getting nothing special. MPs get nothing special.

    Higher nanoskills/dmg, well if people still don't use nukes often then it will still be flat. Just like if Solitus/Opi > Nanomage in every balanced aspect of professions that DO NOT need Mongo Rage.

    Again, if I am alone that is fine. I just think nanoskills, -add cost, and other concepts currently are unimportant...hence why something like MPs/Nanomages are outdated.

    To answer the question, no. Less gaps. More about making BALANCE of the professions, not creating bigger holes in the game like which breed has a larger "this" or stronger "that" just due to breed. With that said, it looks like breeds will play a larger factor into being what breed a profession SHOULD be (i.e. more nanomage crats/engis/mps).

    The breeds are already going to break each profession into what breed "they should be" ...I don't want to see some professions being forced to pick breeds due to much stronger advantages.
    Ctrlaltwin. Man. Legend.

  9. #9
    Last time I checked NanoMage coon was damn good. And for NTs/Traders who get to take advantage of the DTN mechanic is an added bonus they get better returns on it and also have a larger nano pool to make it last longer.
    Last edited by Brofist; Nov 11th, 2010 at 13:26:26.
    Brofist 220/30/70 Engineer
    Techbro 220/30/70 Nano-Technician

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Brofist View Post
    Last time I checked NanoMage coon was damn good. And for NTs/Traders who get to take advantage of the DTN mechanic is an added bonus they get better returns on it and also have a larger nano pool to make it last longer.
    Whole point is I think gaps should not be there to say :

    "hey, play nanomage because you know you are getting stronger nano damage and coon"
    "hey, you are opifex so you should play an evade profession"
    "hey, you are a trox so pick a high HP profession and MR to win"

    Couldn't think of anything for Solitus...

    Either way, with re-balance Breed gaps are becoming...gaps. We'll see more professions pick based on their toolset, rather than an actual legitimate choice. How many opifex Engineers we going to see? Nanomage enforcers/soldiers. It wouldn't be practical, and outside the oddballs who pick just to be different...breed is going to impact selection.
    Ctrlaltwin. Man. Legend.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by tharss View Post
    Whole point is I think gaps should not be there to say :

    "hey, play nanomage because you know you are getting stronger nano damage and coon"
    "hey, you are opifex so you should play an evade profession"
    "hey, you are a trox so pick a high HP profession and MR to win"

    Couldn't think of anything for Solitus...

    Either way, with re-balance Breed gaps are becoming...gaps. We'll see more professions pick based on their toolset, rather than an actual legitimate choice. How many opifex Engineers we going to see? Nanomage enforcers/soldiers. It wouldn't be practical, and outside the oddballs who pick just to be different...breed is going to impact selection.
    I call shenanigans, only a person with poor imagination calls a nm enforcer/soldier impractical.

  12. #12
    The best enforcer I know, and have known for years, is nanomage ^^.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tharss View Post
    Either way, with re-balance Breed gaps are becoming...gaps. We'll see more professions pick based on their toolset, rather than an actual legitimate choice. How many opifex Engineers we going to see? Nanomage enforcers/soldiers. It wouldn't be practical, and outside the oddballs who pick just to be different...breed is going to impact selection.
    What's your point? Are you trying to say nanomage enforces and soldiers should be equally viable as atrox? Atrox NT/MP supposed to be just as viable as a nanomage?

    I really hope it does make an impact to selection. Nanomage are even listed at breed selection as the masters of nanotechnology and metaphysics. Atrox are listed as strong, hardy and resilient, making for a good soldier or worker. Opifex are listed as a good fixer, agent or martial artist.

    It bears to reason that these breeds would excel at their listed profession choices, rather than currently where most of the time, it makes little difference.
    'Fbwhitey' : 220/26 Nano NT [PvP]
    'Garnerana' : 220/22 Trox Keeper [PvM]
    'Zinc' : 220/30 Trox Doctor [PvP]
    'Whex' : 171/22 Trox Soldier

  14. #14
    Some people seem to think that differences between breeds will encourage cookiecutter setups. I incline to think that if there's no significant adventage/disadventage, we're all running around with the same breed; just differently looking. And that is TRULY cookie cutter.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    Some people seem to think that differences between breeds will encourage cookiecutter setups. I incline to think that if there's no significant adventage/disadventage, we're all running around with the same breed; just differently looking. And that is TRULY cookie cutter.
    FC can design distinctive differences between breeds giving players a choice for a minor extra role/purpose/utility besides their profession tools. FC can also create distinctive differences between breeds with certain professions in mind, giving those professions no real choice anymore in their breed. A prime example of the latter is the AI breed documentation for nanomages. The NT is so pushed into the direction of nanomage, that FC might just as well unable chosing different breeds at start-up as a favor to new players.

    I'd rather have no real (dis)advantages between breeds, giving minor stat/utility differences with large visual differences, than every player of profession X running around as breed Y, with no stat/utility or visual differences.
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 bureaucrat*: Starting 12man, need Enfo, Doc, Keeper, reflects."
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 doctor*: Looking for crat/keep/enf for 12m pst "
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 soldier*: still need doc/enf for 12 man. pst
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] LF enfo , crat , doc and soldier's for ipande / pst [220 doctor]"

  16. #16
    This looks good on paper, the problem is if the breed gaps are too significant you're basically telling people "Oh, so you don't like the looks of Breed X? Then screw you, these six professions are not available to you even if you like that playstyle."

    As it stands now you can do wacky stuff like opifex engineer or trox NT and take a performance hit, but not actually be like locked out of stuff or anything.

  17. #17
    I'd love to see more gaps between the breeds, but this would have to come with tweaks.

    For a minimum tweak each profession should have 2 breeds that boosts individual aspects of their profession, 1 that is a general allrounder (cough soli) and one that doesn't directly boost there abilities but gives a new option.

    So for example:

    Enforcer- atrox would boost hp and defense at the cost of nano usage and evades, opifex would boost evades and damage at the cost of health and defence, solitus would be all rounder, opifex would weaken hp/defense/evade/damage but allow for high level nanoprograms (unusable by others without sacrificing their benefits by using other armours) to be used and permanent usage of defensive nanos that would otherwise drain nano completely on other breeds.

    Nanotechnician - nanomage would boost nano usage and damage, atrox would boost hp and defences at the expense of damage and nano usage, solitus would be all rounder, opifex would suffer nano and defense wise but allow for faster casting, higher evades and more fluid damage (in so much as nanos wouldn't have huge gaps between them, aka nanorecharge reduction) or some such

    At best each breed will give positives and negatives that could be balanced out with the right equipment so that all breeds could become equal OR be able to focus on their positives to a point where the other breeds couldn't match in that one focus but would be stronger in area's that one is weak.

    So for example atrox enforcer has higher hp and defense but lower evades, speed, nanopower and skills, opifex enforcer has noticably high evades and speed but lower hp, defense, nanopower and skills, solitus has no penalties but no positives, nanomage has higher nanopower and skills but lower hp defense etc etc

    The main issue for this would be getting nanomage right, but that could be solved by introduction of a top tier of nano's that require nanomage specialties to have a hope to cast and/or a major effect on the ability to cast certain important nanos (for example nanomage enf can cast layers and mongo faster and longer than anyone else) such as reduced cooldowns and so on.

  18. #18
    When you make breeds so much better or worse at certain professions that your choice becomes a no-brainer, what you're really choosing is whether you'd rather be gimped or ugly.

    If I had to choose between breed being purely cosmetic, and breed determining which professions you can effectively play, I'd choose the former in a heartbeat. There's 14 professions; add some variety there.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    When you make breeds so much better or worse at certain professions that your choice becomes a no-brainer, what you're really choosing is whether you'd rather be gimped or ugly.

    If I had to choose between breed being purely cosmetic, and breed determining which professions you can effectively play, I'd choose the former in a heartbeat. There's 14 professions; add some variety there.
    Why does everyone seem to want Atrox NT's and Nanomage Enforcers that are fully able to do the job just as effectively as the other breeds?

    Nanomage is, by design, very weak physically. Atrox, by design, is unskilled with nano use. This should be fully reflected in the profession chosen.

    If there is barely any difference between the breeds, whats the point of having different breeds at all?
    'Fbwhitey' : 220/26 Nano NT [PvP]
    'Garnerana' : 220/22 Trox Keeper [PvM]
    'Zinc' : 220/30 Trox Doctor [PvP]
    'Whex' : 171/22 Trox Soldier

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey View Post
    If there is barely any difference between the breeds, whats the point of having different breeds at all?
    Cosmetic variety. Maybe I don't want my NT to be punished for not wanting to be a goth with no mouth.

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