New Shade Nano Changes!

[fortorn]

Stun procs gone... at last. Now if we can get the MAs stun removed all will be as it should be. No setup should be reliant on stuns.

But these docs basically look good. Tweaks will be need ofc but shades will now be effective through all parts of the game, not just the endgame.

[Otinsainpas]

But these docs basically look good.

indeed, added sense buff makes troxes equip spirits with ease.

[Waahash]

I see the docs as shade ****. SHD is going bye bye for a 10 second duration nano that has a 2 minute lockout and changes the effects depending on what you are fighting. 750 points of healing every hit for 10 seconds (provided all your regulars land which doesnt happen ;p) versus melee and you heal for twice that from ranged, meaning that you are expected to stay in weapon range. You only get the proc if your fighting target has had the nano cast on them (keep in mind a 2 minute recharge for the 10 seconds of healing), and if you switch up targets it's down to your IHMB, LE proc, and your new proc line to heal you. It also locks out your Silence nano as far as I see.

Why did SHD have to be changed so very much?

NCU useage went up so very hard compared to previously, and no while I won't be casting the multi wield and init nanos on myself, along with foregoing the SO buff, I do think the agi/sense for trickle is worth it (and will pay the NCU cost, even though they took the buff off of another nano). It accumulates into piercing, evades, inits, and concealment.

[XenonDe]

Tweaks will be need ofc but shades will now be effective through all parts of the game, not just the endgame.

Why do you think that? The nice thing is making runspeed and concealment buffs scaling but imo the loss of stunproc rather reduces the effectiveness of low to mid level shades. Not that I disagree with changes to stunprocs but the lower level init debuffs don't even come close to what stunsprocs were at those levels.

[Xenotric]

I see the docs as shade ****. SHD is going bye bye for a 10 second duration nano that has a 2 minute lockout and changes the effects depending on what you are fighting. 750 points of healing every hit for 10 seconds (provided all your regulars land which doesnt happen ;p) versus melee and you heal for twice that from ranged, meaning that you are expected to stay in weapon range. You only get the proc if your fighting target has had the nano cast on them (keep in mind a 2 minute recharge for the 10 seconds of healing), and if you switch up targets it's down to your IHMB, LE proc, and your new proc line to heal you. It also locks out your Silence nano as far as I see.

Why did SHD have to be changed so very much?

NCU useage went up so very hard compared to previously, and no while I won't be casting the multi wield and init nanos on myself, along with foregoing the SO buff, I do think the agi/sense for trickle is worth it (and will pay the NCU cost, even though they took the buff off of another nano). It accumulates into piercing, evades, inits, and concealment.

Err SHD got turned into a 4 hour long damage/heal proc.

Defeat righteousness got turned into a 10 second target specific heal proc.

As for it locking out the silence... how did you work that out? their in seperate pools so their cooldowns shouldn't effect each other?

NCU is probably the only major issue with the document, but without the need to use a compiler for incombat nanos plus with the ease of ncu buffs and hopefully better complit support for shades even that might not be so bad.

[Waahash]

Err SHD got turned into a 4 hour long damage/heal proc.

Defeat righteousness got turned into a 10 second target specific heal proc.

As for it locking out the silence... how did you work that out? their in seperate pools so their cooldowns shouldn't effect each other?

NCU is probably the only major issue with the document, but without the need to use a compiler for incombat nanos plus with the ease of ncu buffs and hopefully better complit support for shades even that might not be so bad.

The damage heal proc that SHD got morphed into is not the same thing as SHD was itself (useful versus evaders or people from a range if you had become CC'ed or kited). Something that healed you out of combat, as well as if you managed to sneak again, even if for a short duration. The heal proc leeches in the same way, but you have to be in weapon range AND landing regulars to make use of it.

In the nano docs, looking at Shade's Caress nanoline, when you cast it on someone it changes the nano to a melee/ranged version on the target as we can see (for whatever reason there should be a difference). It also casts "Notimer Flag" on the shade. The new silence nano, on the target version, it shows that "*Must not have Notimer Flag!". I'm assuming that to cast the Silence nano on someone, the Notimer flag must not be there. But to cast the healing proc it makes no such check and so your order would be Silence/Caress. The way I'm seeing silence is a sort of ganker tool while Caress is a prolonged-fight tool (matter of playstyle etc etc). That's why at the end of my statement, I said "as far as I can see" - I mean I could be wrong but the nano docs only show so much. If I'm wrong please say so ;p I don't like the way SHD was changed because of the utility and flexibility of SHD versus this new proc setup and LE nano.

I do realize that Defeat Righteousness was changed (**** I never use the nano except to troll people) to the Caress proc, and that Caress had nothing to do with SHD. SHD became the heal proc. I'm looking at them as healing measures rather than separate concepts entirely - and that was probably best stated earlier but I overlooked that.

[XenonDe]

The NoTimer flag isn't a lockout. It's a technical aspect of some nanos. I remember seeing it on quite a few nanos. I don't remember it's exact function but iirc it had to do with how nano compnents/sub nanos are cast. Most likely a NoTimer flag on the nano interefes with putting the target in nano recharge.

[Waahash]

The NoTimer flag isn't a lockout. It's a technical aspect of some nanos. I remember seeing it on quite a few nanos. I don't remember it's exact function but iirc it had to do with how nano compnents/sub nanos are cast. Most likely a NoTimer flag on the nano interefes with putting the target in nano recharge.

The way I was reading the document, the Silence nano has a low recharge for the shade, and the one cast on the target has the recharge of 6 seconds which is what locks up the target's nano recharge. It checks for the Notimer flag, but does not cast it from what it looks like - and hence my (probable? definate?) confusion.

But why then have something that checks for a notimer flag to begin with instead of setting the landed nano's recharge lower as in the Silence line ;p

[fortorn]

Why do you think that? The nice thing is making runspeed and concealment buffs scaling but imo the loss of stunproc rather reduces the effectiveness of low to mid level shades. Not that I disagree with changes to stunprocs but the lower level init debuffs don't even come close to what stunsprocs were at those levels.

Again the game will be totally new in respect to how classes can be played. For sure what a lot of ppl are used to doing to succeed will change and new methods of success will be found. I am OK with that and welcome some challenge and content to go with it.

I REPEAT, LOWER END CONTENT TO GO WITH BALANCE.

[XenonDe]

The way I was reading the document, the Silence nano has a low recharge for the shade, and the one cast on the target has the recharge of 6 seconds which is what locks up the target's nano recharge. It checks for the Notimer flag, but does not cast it from what it looks like - and hence my (probable? definate?) confusion.

But why then have something that checks for a notimer flag to begin with instead of setting the landed nano's recharge lower as in the Silence line ;p

I have no idea what you just said.
I believe the NoTimer flag isn't part of the mechanics of the nano but a technical component. There are some nanos that must have it set to work correctly while others must not have it set. At least that was how it used to be. I do not know the effect of the NoTimer flag - only a FC dev could tell you. I'm fairly sure it is not used to lock out nanos from each other though. The NoTimer comment in the document most likely isn't intented as a mechanic for us players but a reminder to the devs not to set the flag when implementing the nano.

[XenonDe]

Again the game will be totally new in respect to how classes can be played. For sure what a lot of ppl are used to doing to succeed will change and new methods of success will be found. I am OK with that and welcome some challenge and content to go with it.

I REPEAT, LOWER END CONTENT TO GO WITH BALANCE.

Oh, I am quite ok with that too. There's really no reason to yell. I was replying to this sentence.

But these docs basically look good. Tweaks will be need ofc but shades will now be effective through all parts of the game, not just the endgame.

In these docs I don't see what would make lower level shades more effective. On the contrary, the loss of stunprocs rather hurts at lower level ranges. Hence my question to what in these docs you were refering.

It's not whine waah waah stunprocs nor do I have any doubts that lower level shades will be able to do pvm just fine. I just don't see these docs would make shades more effective at lower levels. The concealment and runspeed changes are very nice but not exactly what makes you more effective in pvm.

[Xenotric]

In these docs I don't see what would make lower level shades more effective. On the contrary, the loss of stunprocs rather hurts at lower level ranges. Hence my question to what in these docs you were refering.

It's not whine waah waah stunprocs nor do I have any doubts that lower level shades will be able to do pvm just fine. I just don't see these docs would make shades more effective at lower levels. The concealment and runspeed changes are very nice but not exactly what makes you more effective in pvm.

Loss of stun procs may or may not be much of an effect (I honestly can't say I ever really used em sub 100).

I think the constant healing that they can get as well as the permanent de-inits combined with an easier time getting into range hidden to open up with attacks will help lower levels fighting npcs.

Doubly so as the damage from the procs is 100% and quite high.

I'd take a definite - inits over a chance for stun any day.

As for the changes to shd and such, technically the damage/heal proc is close to what shd was, deal damage get hp, just now you do it by doing shade like things rather than standing around casting (I know you said you can instant cast it, but with no IP and a ql 300 recompiler I still don't see how thats possible in full defense...) this means you loose its effect at range yes and it wont heal you out of combat thats true, but it should allow you to stay in combat without having to flee by healing you as you kill.

As for it not being so good against evaders... well we'll have to see what the changes bring to that, some evaders are getting less effective and you may still get your boost to attack rating from items.

I think the biggest things the shade community should really be asking for is anti-cc tools and gap closing tools, they are really the biggest weakness and if you get ways to get out of roots and get closer again, even if its not that often, the heal procs including the nemesis one will become that much more effective.

[mr_road]

(I know you said you can instant cast it, but with no IP and a ql 300 recompiler I still don't see how thats possible in full defense...)

its insta cast with a high compiler (doesn't have to be ql 300). xan heart spirit of will + compiler + trickle does the job.

[Doomflower]

whats the problem with putting ip into nano-init? its not that a shade is short on ip...

[Kari]

Indeed, I have a fair bit of nano init IPd thanks to ncu issues... however post changes I can see that IP needing to be elsewhere, especially if the MA template gets fixed. If it doesn't... well, SO or something.

[XenonDe]

Loss of stun procs may or may not be much of an effect (I honestly can't say I ever really used em sub 100).

I think the constant healing that they can get as well as the permanent de-inits combined with an easier time getting into range hidden to open up with attacks will help lower levels fighting npcs.

Doubly so as the damage from the procs is 100% and quite high.

I'd take a definite - inits over a chance for stun any day.

Hm. Actually the healing from the procs is quite nice. It's more effective at low to mid levels then I initially gave it credit for.
Lowbie init debuff procs don't seem that effective. The debuff amount isn't going to slow down mobs much. But of course it's still more better run then the evade debuff procs. I'd guess starting tl4/5 the init debuffs start kicking in and I'll definitely enjoy heal+init debuff procs as well.

[Xenotric]

at the lower levels the 250 will still be enough to give you that edge, the doctors first one is only 350 and that helps by miles (granted they get a 500+ one for adds thats so much better)

I mean sure, your probably not going to be locking down the enemy like you would with stuns or ubt but it combined with the healing you get from procs and perks is going to make the leveling process that much smoother.

At higher levels is when the issues appear, mobs become resistant to the deinits or your teaming with people that do better ones, but then you can switch to de-evade to help land those hits and potentially aid crit rate.

Then PVP is a whole separate kettle of fish, but not one that could or should be solved with stuns and offensive cast nanos.

[XenonDe]

At higher levels is when the issues appear, mobs become resistant to the deinits or your teaming with people that do better ones, but then you can switch to de-evade to help land those hits and potentially aid crit rate.

Eh? I hadn't noticed they moved the init debuff into the UBT line. Currently it stacks with everything.
That also means shade init debuff won't work on bosses anymore. Won't stack with crats either. Meh .

edit:
Same for the evade debuffs not stacking with other evade debuffs. But that doesn't really matter.

[Xenotric]

edit:
Same for the evade debuffs not stacking with other evade debuffs. But that doesn't really matter.

Not when no one else really gets evade debuffs nope (yes this is my complaining over 10s duration of fixer debuffs in pvm, boo)

[Tramson]

Why must absolutely everything change? Some things you can't let you are? It is so great that the shade new things, but much new I would prefer forego if the old is preserved. It would be better fix instead a new things added feeding.