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Thread: Roots vs Snares

  1. #1

    Roots vs Snares

    Something that bothers me with the nano documents is the effects of roots compared to the effect of snares.

    Let's start off looking at the basic information of roots and snares. This information is taken from the most current Crat nano document using the top nano for each type of Root and Snare.

    Def Check:
    AOE Snare: 100%
    Single Snare: 100%

    AOE Root: 90%
    Single Root: 90%


    Difference: Roots have a 10% benefit on both AOE and Single

    Duration:
    AOE Snare: 9s
    Single Snare: 10s

    AOE Root: 10s.
    Single Root: 10s.


    Difference: 1s benefit on AOE root.

    Chance to Break:
    AOE Snare: 25%
    Single Snare: 25%

    AOE Root: 25%
    Single Root: 25%


    Difference: None.

    Cast Range:
    AOE Snare: 20m + 20m AOE.
    Single Snare: 20m.

    AOE Root: 30m + 20m AOE.
    Single Root: 30m.


    Difference: 10m Benefit on AOE and Single Roots.

    Cooldown:
    AOE Snare: 30s.
    Single Snare: 10s.

    AOE Root: 20s.
    Single Root: 10s.


    Difference: 10s shorter CD on AOE Root.

    Conclusion:
    Roots are as good or better than snares in every single aspect in PvP. Taking into account that snares lower runspeed, but roots completely prevent movement, snares need boosted in 1 or more of the areas above. Right now, there is zero reason to use a snare instead of a root, and there is no advantage to snares that roots do not do better.
    Last edited by SultryVoltron; Nov 30th, 2010 at 18:43:16. Reason: Typo.
    The Fine Arts:
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    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  2. #2
    First of all, ALL AoE effects should have 50% of its single versions range.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  3. #3
    would say have 50% of its aoe range removed from its cast range

    so if the single variant had 30m base range and the aoe has a 20m range then the cast range would be 30-10 = 20m

    That way when you cast it it will hit up to the same range but have to hit a closer target for it (as I believe the 20m is the diameter not the radius?)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    First of all, ALL AoE effects should have 50% of its single versions range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    would say have 50% of its aoe range removed from its cast range

    so if the single variant had 30m base range and the aoe has a 20m range then the cast range would be 30-10 = 20m

    That way when you cast it it will hit up to the same range but have to hit a closer target for it (as I believe the 20m is the diameter not the radius?)
    I agree, there's lots of problems with the current documents if you look at them.
    The Fine Arts:
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    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  5. #5
    It might make more sense if the (dis)advantages of them were swapped.
    However, with the new casting system, it's not like you will be spamming roots and only roots. You will be using both. Doesn't mean squat if roots or snares have shorter cooldown; You *will* use both in order to do proper crowd control.
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  6. #6
    It does look a little odd doesn't it. In particular, I think the flat 25% Chance on break in both fixer and crat docs looks suspect... and I have a su****ion that those might need to change down the line. But there are, perhaps, a few other factors to take into account. TL;DR version is, I suppose, that the difference in effect will show itself more in the choice of order of usage than in choosing which to use.

    Right now, there is zero reason to use a snare instead of a root.
    I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something about the way that casting behaviour changes with the introduction of cool-downs:

    At the moment, let's say you're trying to cast a root - but being resisted - you cast, then cast again ~4.5 seconds later then again after ~9 seconds and so on... so in less than 10 seconds, you've managed to cast that root 3 times.

    In the new model, you cast it and then have to wait a full 10 seconds before you can try a root again. However, you can cast a root, find yourself resisted then cast a snare 1s later, then try an AoE root 1s later, then an AoE snare 1s later - so in the space of time it took to recast 1 root, you could actually have tried all four types in the cool-down system.

    The availability is quite different. In the present system, you'd always tend to choose between a root or a snare - because they share similar attack/recharge times and using one prevents use of the other. But in the cool-down system, you can much more easily use all of them in an overlapping manner - and so the choice isn't so much either/or as much as it is and.

    With that in mind, perhaps some flattening of the distinctions between the different types is to be expected? You'd still probably go for the better effect first - so type will affect order used... but type should perhaps affect useability less as a result?


    There's also something different that goes on with regard to what happens when an effect breaks:

    At present, the durations are far longer than cast/recharge. If you break a root with weapon fire, then you can recast the root swiftly afterwards to re-establish it. But in the new system, if a root should quickly break - you cannot recast it because you're still in cool-down... so you might turn to the snare instead.

    There's something in there about the snares/roots needing to be more equal in order to be able to substitute for one another while either one is in cool-down.


    There's also something different about the way that shorter durations work - which is a key part of the CC changes, in particular in PvP.

    If you want to maintain a root right now, then once it's landed you don't really need to think about it again. Heavily shortening durations for CC in PvP in the present system, would mean that if you want to hold a given target with a root, then a lot of recharge time is built up trying to maintain that root which would kill a lot of other casting activity.

    In the new system, the cast + cool-down times broadly = the durations... so to maintain a single target, you need to use the nano pretty much immediately when it's available... without affecting other casting as negatively - but with the definite down-side that a failure to land would mean loss of control over the target. So once again, the different types of crowd-control need to be able to substitute for each other to some degree.

    Same with trying to maintain on multiple targets. In the new system you couldn't control several targets with single-target roots... because the cast + cool-down broadly = durations. So to use single-target tools to control more than one target, you would need to use root on one target and snare on the other.

    Again... the mind-set should perhaps be less one of either/or and more one of and/and..? It's prehaps more about order used, than about the intrinsic nature of the effects....?


    Like I say... I think that the Chance of Break stats will probably need to be adjusted to some degree... but there is something about the new casting paradigm that changes the way we make choices about which type of cc to use. It may become less driven by type and more by availability... and so it may make some sense that the differences between types are flattened out somewhat.

    I'm not even sure exactly how that will play out... like I said, I'm not even sure I quite have my finger on what I mean... but there's definitely a change of some kind involved there...

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Nov 30th, 2010 at 01:13:08.

  7. #7
    If the only adjusted the chance of break on snares compared to roots, then it would be fine.

    But, quite frankly, the difference of effect between slowing someone down and completely stopping them warrants some sort of advantage that snares have which roots don't.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  8. #8
    Snares do have an advantage as far as I am aware. They do not break on combat as much as roots do. Roots seem to break as soon as you are shot,stabbed,clubbed,nuked in almost every situation. Only exception I can think of is the cheating roots NTs have that can root anyone and is unbreakable without Free Movement.
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  9. #9
    fortorn, we're talking about what's in the Crat nano document, which sets Chance of Break at the same for Crat roots and snares.

    X

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fortorn View Post
    Snares do have an advantage as far as I am aware. They do not break on combat as much as roots do. Roots seem to break as soon as you are shot,stabbed,clubbed,nuked in almost every situation. Only exception I can think of is the cheating roots NTs have that can root anyone and is unbreakable without Free Movement.
    The only difference between an NT SL root and all the other roots from other classes is that it can't be rage'd out of. They break on hit and are subject to immunities just like any other root.

    And yes the snares in the crat doc should at least get a lower break chance imo.

  11. #11
    Is he thinking about the MP/NT Theoretical Research root, perhaps? Quark Containment Field can only be used every 160 seconds though - and is quickly removed with FM stim.

    X

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by XtremTech View Post
    Is he thinking about the MP/NT Theoretical Research root, perhaps? Quark Containment Field can only be used every 160 seconds though - and is quickly removed with FM stim.

    X
    He's clearly an Enf, because if it cannot be raged off, it's unbreakable.

    That's my favorite part about that nano tbh, it's the only nano I can think of in game that actually decreases the intelligence of the user.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SultryVoltron View Post
    He's clearly an Enf, because if it cannot be raged off, it's unbreakable.

    That's my favorite part about that nano tbh, it's the only nano I can think of in game that actually decreases the intelligence of the player.
    Fixed.

    But seriously, I think he was actually speaking about TR root, which is funny given how easy it is to get rid of it...

    As a matter of fact, short of a major nerfage of FM-like stims, all roots and snares will be as lolstatic anyway after balance...
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  14. #14
    .. which pretty much implies that there will be a major nerf of the FM-like stims and perks and stuff... doesn't it?

    X

  15. #15
    He's talking about the NT SL root. It can't be broken with rage.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    As a matter of fact, short of a major nerfage of FM-like stims, all roots and snares will be as lolstatic anyway after balance...
    Apparently, after rebalance, roots will be unbreakable and un-removable for the duration. Durations seem to have been dramatically reduced across the board, too.

    I think it is to combat the 'at arms length' form of combat which most CC professions tend to adopt, and turn roots in particular to a tactical weapon rather than a 'spam it on everything' one.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaloot
    He's talking about the NT SL root. It can't be broken with rage.
    Myea, but TR root is the only root available to us that can't be broken by rage or damage, while our Spe/Emp roots have a break on damage chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xtremtech
    which pretty much implies that there will be a major nerf of the FM-like stims and perks and stuff... doesn't it?
    For stims, prolly Tech, the question being "will they be nerfed enough". Cause if for some professions (Sols, engies as far we know atm) they are the main CC countering mean, for a lot of others, it will remain an addition to CC innate resistance and nano/perk based removers. Cause as far as "perks and stuff" are concerned, the perk docs and nano sheets we have don't seem to point at any significant nerf of these abilities.
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey View Post
    Apparently, after rebalance, roots will be unbreakable and un-removable for the duration. Durations seem to have been dramatically reduced across the board, too.

    I think it is to combat the 'at arms length' form of combat which most CC professions tend to adopt, and turn roots in particular to a tactical weapon rather than a 'spam it on everything' one.
    Either I missed that particular change in most recent nano sheets, or you have been missing something. Last time I checked them, all nano based snares and roots had a 25% chance breaking on attack, debuff, etc.
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
    Noim, Neutral TL7 NT
    Sethis, Neutral TL7 Keeper
    Anthraxal, Omni TL5 Enfotrox

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    Either I missed that particular change in most recent nano sheets, or you have been missing something. Last time I checked them, all nano based snares and roots had a 25% chance breaking on attack, debuff, etc.
    I m not sure this 25% chance to break is relevant seeing new duration and cooldown . . .

    If it were at 0%, it d make sense considering cooldown and etc, if it's balanced by some other aspects of the game.

    If it were at 100%, it would make sense and makes it a pure defensive tool (you can't DD your target while it's on, so you run away, use LoS to breath a second, heal, wait your tool to recharge, wait a friend, etc).

    At 25% it's looks like gambling to me, considering you can't refresh it if it were to break.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Djiax View Post
    I m not sure this 25% chance to break is relevant seeing new duration and cooldown . . .
    If you think this is bad, you haven't seen AoC roots.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

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