Remove CH form Agent Shadow/Mimic Line

[Aimzor]

He has. 1 (one) FP'able nano shouldn't make/break the profession. And this is advocated for?

<<< not impressed.

Making or breaking of the agent profession isn't the discussion (Start a new thread about it if you like in the agent section). I'm not here (and I guess, neither are the others) to impress you but apperently you're very selffocused in a thread that's not even started by you.

"Remove CH form Agent Shadow/Mimic Line"

Excluding one more nano from the FP ability never solved a problem it will just narrow down the options a player has. Playing only in FP doc because of CH should make you consider rolling a doc and with the support in pistol perks you might even do better.

In some perspective CH looks OP but on a larger scale isn't.

[Ebondevil]

He has. 1 (one) FP'able nano shouldn't make/break the profession. And this is advocated for?

His point was basically that CH is OP in Agent hands, not that one nano makes or breaks the Agent profession, it's a point most Agents don't agree with because it currently does make or break agents, that's not the result of CH being overpowered however, CH makes or breaks Agents because it's pretty much the only reliable tool Agents have for survival.


My point is CH is a lot weaker than what other healing professions have available to them and thus it's less overpowered than those other heals. If an Agent is mimicing a doctor then that Agent is performing as a healing profession and should have comparable tools, though with an Agent twist.


Just because one nano currently makes or breaks a profession that does not automatically translate into that nano needing to be removed. Quite the opposite in fact, the rest of the Agent toolset needs to be improved so we can live without CH if we choose to. Just because we should be able to choose to live without it does not mean it should be removed, it should be a choice whether we use it or not.

[Cyberleet]

He wanted to hear the pros and cons with his suggestion...

I'm not here (and I guess, neither are the others) to impress you but apperently you're very selffocused in a thread that's not even started by you.

I think we have a comprehension thing going.

There is 3 personal attacks from yourself in just 2 posts, I'll let you think about what that means you are.

I think you are confusing critisism, opinions and personal attacks. Try read his post.

Lets see him advocate for something agent specific, lets say...detaunts, and then 1 FP'nano, lets say...CH (which makes you the games second best healer) and you see I'm spot on.

That I think they both are the worst professionals agents had and ruins the profession along with that they have little ground for calling the OP this and that is however unrelated to the topic, but I can't see the reason or the merit for clinging on to CH like that. We should be fine with revivification, bol/insantheal...or as mimic eng. It's so selective if you get what I'm saying

It's something inherently wrong with how agent is in practice. We imo basicly need means for being better in outkilling opponents and stay out of harm. Our unique tools are ineffective which should be a more serious issue for the profession at hand, it's apparantly not...it doesn't even fall into the taste of the CH-hugging (just stating the truth here) professionals, so...

Even shade/soldier that are buildt for dealing with targets that fights back can hurt more than us (altho, they are need to get past defence, while agent doesn't) and does more dd.

So fixing our unique tools should be the focus, not having 1 fp'able rk-nano make/break the profession.

The only reason I see for having CH is that it is fun.

The only difference is he has more responsibly. The rest of us have one as well, its to treat all the proffs like a player because they are one to. This you are not doing however.

Of course not. I expect them both to be professional...not treating them like a regular player.

[Cyberleet]

If an Agent is mimicing a doctor then that Agent is performing as a healing profession and should have comparable tools, though with an Agent twist.

Access to tools, but without the proficiency as we wouldn't pretend to be a doctor for the purpose of healing another person. Or IRL; Assist in a cardiac-operation. It's a disguise that comes with benefits.

I think he has a point, altho adding damage-penalty to FP-doc would probably be better.

Or something.

[Gatester]

This goes both ways. An enf with everything up is guaranteed to beat an agent with for example Concussive Shot down since it is essential in surviving such an alpha. But if an enf -does- kill me when I have most my stuff down I won't be doing any complaining about it, so let's assume the fight is a random encounter where they both have everything up. In that case the enf should win UNLESS the agent has prepared himself to fight enfs.

In reality? That only happens in duels or in situations where the Agent knows in advance that his only opponent is going to be an Enf.

Just like not every Agent is geared to survive enf alphas. I can count the Agents that can do that on the fingers of my hands. And the amount of Agents that have the gear, preparation, and the skill to survive enf alphas toe-to-toe in a duel? I can count those on one hand.

The whole "knowingly face" thing is bull - with some moving around you can get the perk off, just like Shades have been doing with Piercing Mastery since the dawn of time.

But an average Enforcer will steamroll an average Agent in any situation. An awesome Enforcer will steamroll an awesome Agent, UNLESS that Agent is prepared to survive his alpha.

In random encounters, that Agent simply does not have the time to "prepare" for an Enforcer, because it involves swapping lots of equipment!

And even with preparation, the awesome Enforcer still has a very good chance to beat the awesome Agent. For the record I am ~50/50 with Forz in duels. He says I am one of the hardest Agents to alpha. If he could use fears in a duel the win:loss balance would sharply skew in his favour.

I'm going to requote what I originally stated.

To be fair, tranq does make an enforcer noticeably slower than an agent and the enforcer also has to stop to cast while an agent will only stop when he is forced to. The no-issues thing also comes from particular enforcer alpha setups that are being fazed out by FC nerfs. No 2hb, 2he, or pure 1he or 1hb enforcer should ever be a threat to a good agent, the killing power simply isn't there.

You should replace every instance in which you say enforcer with 1he/1hb enforcer who also has Manners of Mongo perked. With the exception of a lucky capping sneak attack and dimach the other setups have a very difficult time killing good agents. It is unfortunate for you that the most common pvp setup at this time for enforcers is also the most effective, but if you want to argue that every enforcer is OP against every agent then I have no choice but to argue against you.

I have adapted, by rolling a nanomage. And for the record it's not me crying on the forums, it's you and Fortorn crying because you can't kill Agents. Well, tough stuff. Set up for it, or suck it up and go kill every other prof out there.

I kill agents just fine, but it is not a guaranteed win like you seem to think. I've told you from my own experience that tranq does impact an enforcer's ability to kill a kiting agent and that situational perks are difficult to land but you choose to disregard that in its entirety. I have also tried a great deal of pvp setups, includeing pure 1he, pure 2he, pure 2hb, 2hb w/AS swap, 2he+1he, 1hb+1he, and pure 1hb. I know how all of these setups work, and I know which professions these setups work well against and which ones they do not.

Discounting my experience is not a sign of professionalism.

MPs are the nerfest right now, Keeper a close second, MA/Agent fighting for the third place.

What is this ranking based off of? MA is no where near the bottom, and if we took specific setups then a pure 2he enforcer could be considered weaker than a keeper. Everyone is always trying to rank each other and nerf everyone else rather than just working on fixing the few holes that make a profession unsuccessful.

That's a rather presumptuous implication.

My reply to the calculation you did was wrong. What I should have done is ask the numbers you obtained and what setup or situation so I will apologize for that one. The fact is people run up numbers all the time to argue things without thinking about whether it is even viable, so it was indeed presumptuous of me.

[Lupusceleri]

I'm going to requote what I originally stated.

You should replace every instance in which you say enforcer with 1he/1hb enforcer who also has Manners of Mongo perked. With the exception of a lucky capping sneak attack and dimach the other setups have a very difficult time killing good agents. It is unfortunate for you that the most common pvp setup at this time for enforcers is also the most effective, but if you want to argue that every enforcer is OP against every agent then I have no choice but to argue against you.

The setups without Manners of Mongo work fine against all but the best Agents (well discounting pure 2he/2hb/1hb but not a single Enf that is serious about PvP runs around with them).

I kill agents just fine, but it is not a guaranteed win like you seem to think. I've told you from my own experience that tranq does impact an enforcer's ability to kill a kiting agent and that situational perks are difficult to land but you choose to disregard that in its entirety. I have also tried a great deal of pvp setups, includeing pure 1he, pure 2he, pure 2hb, 2hb w/AS swap, 2he+1he, 1hb+1he, and pure 1hb. I know how all of these setups work, and I know which professions these setups work well against and which ones they do not.

Discounting my experience is not a sign of professionalism.

It isn't a guaranteed win for you, because you don't have sneakattack or MoM. It really is that simple.

What is this ranking based off of? MA is no where near the bottom, and if we took specific setups then a pure 2he enforcer could be considered weaker than a keeper. Everyone is always trying to rank each other and nerf everyone else rather than just working on fixing the few holes that make a profession unsuccessful.

It's based on my opinion. MA is a very complicated PvP prof, because you need to do a lot of well-timed hotswapping to kill stuff.

I also disagree about pure 2he enf being weaker than Keeper, at least the enf has Dimach and stuns.

[sultryvoltron]

Thats is ridiculous, we got plenty of other stuff. TMS, NS..Reduce Inertia. Oh, is ineffective like other profession-unique tools? Well, we don't need it until escape nanos are fixed. Then we can talk about clinging on to CH.

There is zero logical continuity in this post.

Why not?

The only diference is that other professions must get it from others while we have acces by our own.

Altho, it should have some restrictions. Who would be fooled thinking you are a real doc with a rifle out doing signficant harm to others or other undercover-stuff?

Just watch and see. I'm not a Dev, that's just my best guess, and likely that's the road they will be taking as well. We won't need True Prof because we'll be playing a completely different class than we currently do.

What!

Agent got issues with agg?

That's not what I said. But good job childishly taking quotes out of context and inserting your own slant into them.

But we don't need it. We have detaunts for team-scenarios.

Then snareperks and escapal-tools for soloing, altho FP-benefits comes in handy here it shouldn't determine the outcome. We're not like shades that has is buildt for more lasting battles, we basicly kill our targets in quick sucession using stealth.

We have detaunts that are unnecessary in team play, snareperks that are short and force you to run, escape tools that WILL get you killed in PvM. You're right, I don't need to heal myself at all. I can kill any mob in game with those.

Avoid it all you want, but you know this is the case currently. I'm not even commenting on what the future may hold, because I honestly don't know what FC has in mind by looking at other prof's nano documents. YOU just need to learn some patience. When we get our nano document, we'll see what FC has in mind for how VisualProfession=Agent should work. At that point, feel free to kick and scream and throw a tantrum all over the forums. Until then, please stop.

[agentwolve]

his OP says, remove CH because we have too good evades, damage and who knows what else.

his only point he makes is wrong, then in further points he tries to back track after realising how much of a fools hes making himself look, and further suggests we get other tools working better to stop being cookie cutter, yet he wants to reduce our options too .... i dont see how that makes sense.

stop being cookie cutter, have more stuff, but take stuff away so your forced to still use one thing and be cookie (Except this new cookie cutter suits me more as an enfo).

[Notcrattey]

MA is a very complicated PvP prof, because you need to do a lot of well-timed hotswapping to kill stuff.

Complicated != Nerfest

[Gatester]

It isn't a guaranteed win for you, because you don't have sneakattack or MoM. It really is that simple.

I am IP'd for two weapon skills at this time, do not assume I am referring to anything but an optimal pvp setup. What did I tell you about basing your comments off of my signature?

It's based on my opinion. MA is a very complicated PvP prof, because you need to do a lot of well-timed hotswapping to kill stuff.

So MA is tied for third because it is hard to use, not because of how effective the prof is in pvp, and agent is tied for third because it either has trouble killing professions, is hard to use, or is the 2nd easiest prof to kill (unless keeper counts as the 2nd easiest to kill)? Are there no other professions that could possibly be worse than MA and agent, even keeper?

I also disagree about pure 2he enf being weaker than Keeper, at least the enf has Dimach and stuns.

What an astounding assessment. If you said rage I would have at least thought you had a valid argument about whose survival is greater (its enforcer's obviously), but you really have no idea of what keepers are capable of do you?

[sultryvoltron]

I am IP'd for two weapon skills at this time, do not assume I am referring to anything but an optimal pvp setup. What did I tell you about basing your comments off of my signature?



So MA is tied for third because it is hard to use, not because of how effective the prof is in pvp, and agent is tied for third because it either has trouble killing professions, is hard to use, or is the 2nd easiest prof to kill (unless keeper counts as the 2nd easiest to kill)? Are there no other professions that could possibly be worse than MA and agent, even keeper?



What an astounding assessment. If you said rage I would have at least thought you had a valid argument about whose survival is greater (its enforcer's obviously), but you really have no idea of what keepers are capable of do you?

Couple of points then Gatester:

1) An optimal cookie cutter PvP setup enf has an extremely high chance to alpha an Agent straight out in standard equip. An anti-healer setup Enf has even more of a chance. I don't understand how you can possibly deny that.

2) Excluding duels, MAs aren't a very strong PvP profession because they are melee, and susceptible to CC. I certainly wouldn't put MA above ... well any of the Ranged Profs. They are one of the most kitable professions ever. I also wouldn't put them above Enf or Shade.

3) Keepers are capable of being rooted and becoming free frags. Hell, most of the time an Agent can tank a Keeper toe to toe, keep CHing, and AS the Keeper to death with an OE rifle. I understand why an Agent would rank Keepers so low.

[Lupusceleri]

So MA is tied for third because it is hard to use, not because of how effective the prof is in pvp

First off, hotswapping and alphaing at exactly the right time.

Second, they are an evades prof and you know what evaders are like when everyone and their dog has AS (or big nukes).

Third, they are easy to kite - lowish runspeed, overall lack of CC, and can't just faceroll up the perks because their main PvP alpha consists of TWO hotswaps.

Fourth, your average PvM MA is going to suck very hard in PvP due to a large difference in perk setup (this is not the case for most other profs).

Fifth, low AR for a prof that relies on their alpha - yes I know that top MAs like Angevil can get 3.5k in a dueling setup, but if he does not have CiB up he's alpha food for higher AR profs - he has sacrificed a lot of def to get there.

Sixth, rather small heals with a VERY long recharge and during this recharge they can't use hotswaps.

Seventh, any stun which comes from MA attack items puts them in a VERY long recharge and during this recharge they can't use hotswaps.

Just look how many active PvP MAs there are around right now if you want even more proof. Pretty sure you can count them on one hand.

and agent is tied for third because it either has trouble killing professions, is hard to use, or is the 2nd easiest prof to kill (unless keeper counts as the 2nd easiest to kill)? Are there no other professions that could possibly be worse than MA and agent, even keeper?

Agent is tied for third because:

1. It has trouble killing anything that doesn't easily die to *loads* of AS spam and UBT (Adv Doc Eng Fix Trader).

2. You can't land perks when you need them if you only have 3k AR (perfect endgame def setup).

3. It's hard not dieing to every alpha, or 2 random noobs working together, when you only have 2k evades (perfect endgame AR setup).

4. Without NR2 it can't resist any debuff.

5. With NR2 it can't cast nanos which are essential to survive alphas (TP and AAS) or perk others (AAS and Bullseye).

6. When ANY, and I mean ANY debuff lands you're dead meat if you can't somehow run your tiny legs out of your ass - and even just getting out alive is nearly impossible if you don't have a def setup.

7. Out of all 14 profs the only ones that don't have something to screw up CH are Adventurer, Fixer, and Keeper.

What an astounding assessment. If you said rage I would have at least thought you had a valid argument about whose survival is greater (its enforcer's obviously), but you really have no idea of what keepers are capable of do you?

Keepers are capable of, well, nothing against me.

Okay they are unperkable if I'm def setup. Then I press O until they die which happens pretty soon. Somewhere in the fight they'll try their miserable 2 minute recharge alpha against me which has 0 stuns, 0 dangerous debuffs, and 0 nano depletions. Oh boy.

Due to the heavy perk-reliability they can't really afford to invest perks in Spatial Displacement which means mediocre anti-CC, no spectacular runspeed, no way to catch up with their target or make it come to them. Their Dimach doesn't even do real damage and is on a one hour lockout. The cherry on top of the cake? One of the Flavour of the Month profs, Shade, can remove ALL of their buffs which means even if they don't die they'll have to spend 5 minutes swapping gear and recasting their nanos. For what it's worth even with Shades' crap nanoskills it's going to land because you KNOW how broken Nano Resist is right now.

[Notcrattey]

I also wouldn't put them above Enf or Shade.

But this greatly depends on who they are fighting.

[Cyberleet]

Yeah, here's a taker:

Obvious troll is obvious.

You're a goddamn Enforcer and complaining about Agents - why, exactly? Last I checked Enforcers have zero issues taking down an Agent.

You were an obvious troll in the first post. Trolls shouldn't be surprised when they don't get "nice" answers.

I don't think he was trolling or trying to. He has a perfectly valid and IC opinion.

Title being: Remove CH form Agent Shadow/Mimic Line

His OP is has a pretty hostile feeling to it, do you disagree?

Yes! I'd be glad if they remove CH. LOTS are disapointed that agent is limited to being some assasultdoctor.

It'd be worse if he suggested removed detaunts, escape-repetoir, or consentration-nanos. Thats my opinion.

My only issue with this is that using CH is very, VERY fun in combat and can offer versatillity and diversity in the future.

[Kazeran]

Yes! I'd be glad if they remove CH. LOTS are disapointed that agent is limited to being some assasultdoctor.

It'd be worse if they removed detaunts, escape, or consentration-nanos. Thats my opinion.

My only issue wit this is that using CH is very, VERY fun in combat and can offer versatillity and diversity in the future.

I don't see the reason you want to remove CH (which I can't tell if you do or don't because of what you posted just now). When FC decided to go over the agents nano changes they will be able to change agents dependency on CH and give agents more options, which seems to be what you want. However until the rebalancing is done agents are pushed into using CH for the best survivability. Sold/enf/trader all work to a degree as well, depending on the playstyle of any said agent/player but none of them offer the same level of survivability as CH does.

When the dust settles and we can see how everything will work agents will (hopefully) have the ability to use nearly any prof in pvp and have a fair chance of surviving against people.

tldr: Agents currently need CH and it should not be removed. When the rebalancing is done they should still have the option to fp doc and be viable but not depend on it, nor be overly powered while being fp doc.

[Cyberleet]

Yeah, but he asked specificly for the shaddowline, which is in the future and I think I can see where he is coming from.

Shade are getting better heals while getting stuns nerfed (or was it removed altogether?)... I think it would be intresting to see agent returning to more being themselfs in practice/using their own unique toolset to a greater extent. Altho it's better solutions than removing CH in terms of balance.

The thing is that tradeskilling are equally "important" as a FP-tool as CH is storywise.

So the point is that agent-combat is inherently flawed as we are almost dependant on 1 fp'able nano...not that FP shouldn't give benefits.

Sold/enf/trader all work to a degree as well, depending on the playstyle of any said agent/player but none of them offer the same level of survivability as CH does.

Situational...FP soldier is great at Tara. FP fixer if you are alone at Tara doing your thing etc...

A big issue is that our own nano-technology and utlilities are being so out-performed by FP-doc buffs.

[Lupusceleri]

Psst.. if you were actually genuinely interested in whether or not removing CH is a good idea, you should take a look in the Agent forums. It's been debated MANY times before, though we tend to do it in a constructive manner rather than just "throwing it out there" along with a few erratic claims.

http://forums.anarchyonline.com/showthread.php?t=555203
http://forums.anarchyonline.com/showthread.php?t=556563

There's another thread out there about it (note how blackmesa's thread is calling for "round 2!"), but it's hiding under the table. I can't find it.

Lletah, you especially should have a look at them. Like I've been saying, I think you might find that the nonsense you've been spouting about me is actually nowhere near the truth.

[Sromp]

You suck at PvP Srompu. Everyone knows it.

D'oh xD
Hey, how're mime and surgery coming? Long time no chat.

Yeah, but he asked specificly for the shaddowline, which is in the future and I think I can see where he is coming from.

Shade are getting better heals while getting stuns nerfed (or was it removed altogether?)... I think it would be intresting to see agent returning to more being themselfs in practice/using their own unique toolset to a greater extent. Altho it's better solutions than removing CH in terms of balance.

Are you talking about after the rebalance? If so, this seems like a valid discussion, but this:

So the point is that agent-combat is inherently flawed as we are almost dependant on 1 fp'able nano...not that FP shouldn't give benefits.

is about the present, and will be false after the rebalance. Which one are you talking about?

[sultryvoltron]

D'oh xD
Hey, how're mime and surgery coming? Long time no chat.

Frozen atm

I took a bit of a break to play Champions Online. That account is frozen too now, and I'm playing Minecraft for a bit. It's real fun. I miss AO though, so I'll be back sooner or later. I'm not sure if I'll be back until rebalance though, but I'll probably be back before then since I've been getting the urge to twink something

A big issue is that our own nano-technology and utlilities are being so out-performed by FP-doc buffs.

One could argue very convincingly that the ability to FP is the most fundamental core ability of an Agent.

It comes back to my old thread that Lupus just linked to. Design-wise, FP can serve two potential purposes, as an enhancement to the Agent toolset, or to replace missing parts of the Agent toolset.

[Ocene]

Title says it all. Remove the ability for Agents to cast CH.

Agents have evades, CC and unending levels of DMG. CH is far too OP. I know there is a great deal of opinions on this matter and I would like to hear the pros and cons to my suggestion.

Any takers?

I'm glad you bring this up. Here's my take on it.

CH is not OP, it gives (today) plenty of time for many professions to perform an alpha during its recharge. It's easy to debuff so an agent can't even use it, forcing the agent to run away. I would actually argue to give agents access to some SL doc heals, or better yet, a true and viable native heal allowing agents to heal themselves while being in other FP than doc.