Nerf ranged combo...!?

[Esqi]

Gotta have a lot of add dmg running and be lucky on as roll for 10k as with craphander.

[-yeny-]

dmg aura + horde + energize + reinforce slugs + muzzleflash + 2 add dmg procs (they mostly run) + CC armor + end-equip == 30% AS nrly allways with onehander. easily 10k.

and a good def enf can last longer than ams-runtime against a smg-sold. use big sl/db esse and cancel it at the right time. + stuns + coon + heal perks + absorbs + HD... works.

[Manaas]

dmg aura + horde + energize + reinforce slugs + muzzleflash + 2 add dmg procs (they mostly run) + CC armor + end-equip == 30% AS nrly allways with onehander. easily 10k.

and a good def enf can last longer than ams-runtime against a smg-sold. use big sl/db esse and cancel it at the right time. + stuns + coon + heal perks + absorbs + HD... works.

Rofl "nearly always". If you've ever faced a decent enf you NEED the aao hud to land decent FAs on them, using a scope for higher ASes is just a idiotic idea since the loss of 60 aao is quite likely to put them in unperkable range if you run with envy/onehander.

GL landing muzzleflash vs a decent enf, burst vs dodge rng lol.

Don't know anyone who would use the add damage proc over the 35 AR proc either.

Also you know that all add dmg is halved in pvp? Yeah so all that stuff you listed probably amounts to about to 450 add damage and not having the scope means endgame soldiers are running about with close to 0 crit and 1600ish AS skill.

In that setup my minimum AS is about 2.2k and usual AS vs enfs is 4.4k of course I have capped enfs before but that's one in about 50 ASes and a lot of the time my AS will just do 1k damage cause of absorbs.

[Armus]

I rarely ever cap enfs when using REC3. Maybe one out of 10 but I think probably less.

REC3 dmg is 300-325 (300) - Radiation AC (crit dmg=625) and mbs is 2400.

Onehander is 1-121 (584) - Projectile AC (crit dmg=705) and mbs is 1223.

So in reality counting in extra damage from much higher mbs the kec isn't much after at all on crit dmg. So idk how you'd cap enfs with that crap.

[Shaguar]

Please tell me this isnt turning into sold's saying " we cant kill enf's " ....

[-yeny-]

with ASR you own any enf :P with smg you cant kill a good def enf (in duels)

[Shaguar]

with ASR you own any enf :P with smg you cant kill a good def enf (in duels)

Are you saing it comes down to choices ?! And that they are available ? ( is what i understood, im just trying to get a confirmation )

[Armus]

with ASR you own any enf :P with smg you cant kill a good def enf (in duels)

Except the one that is wise enough to run away if AMS is up. Won't work in a duel ofcourse.

[Gatester]

Except the one that is wise enough to run away if AMS is up. Won't work in a duel ofcourse.

Enfs are at their strongest running away. Imagine how powerful soldiers would be if they could run away like enforcers, although you would have soldiers complaining that they should not have to run away to survive.

You have to wonder, is it really fair to claim a profession can last forever as long as they run away if people do not want to survive that way?

[Gunfytr]

Imagine how powerful soldiers would be if they could run away like enforcers, although you would have soldiers complaining that they should not have to run away to survive.

From the looks of things, we are going to have to learn to do exactly that.

[Armus]

Enfs are at their strongest running away.

Really? I'd have thought enfs are at their strongest when faced with squishy casters. But yes, having the option to run away is awesome. having the ability to abort a fight is pretty close in greatness to being able to choose when to fight.

Imagine how powerful soldiers would be if they could run away like enforcers, although you would have soldiers complaining that they should not have to run away to survive.

I have no trouble accepting that there are classes soldiers rarely beat 1 on 1. In the future let's not assume what others may or may not say, shall we?

You have to wonder, is it really fair to claim a profession can last forever as long as they run away if people do not want to survive that way?

I certainly never claimed that. A really good enf usually lasts about 75 seconds vs me toe to toe in a duel. That's without rrfe for the enf ofc. That's not bad imo.

And what's so bad about running? Running is something you do when you know you can't win. I do it quite often unless there is a point to dying. Such as saving my friends or keeping a position etc. The difference between running as an enf is that you have 1300-1400 more run speed than I do as soldier, you have 1300-1400 more nr than I do (at least), and if you do get rooted or snared you can instantly break free in most situations.

In addition to that you have vastly better heals and evades that at least do something. As a soldier, when AMS is doen and I'm running all I have is my heal delta, a few puny healperks and after a while reflects that aren't much better than rrfe that you too can get.

So yeah.. I run even though I will usually get rooted, debuffed into oblivion and owned quickly. Your running abilities are far better than mine. You should use them.

ps. I play enf too but at lower levels. I very often run into a crowd and kill 1-2 ppl and manage to get away most of the time. It's great

[Gatester]

Really? I'd have thought enfs are at their strongest when faced with squishy casters. But yes, having the option to run away is awesome. having the ability to abort a fight is pretty close in greatness to being able to choose when to fight.



I have no trouble accepting that there are classes soldiers rarely beat 1 on 1. In the future let's not assume what others may or may not say, shall we?



I certainly never claimed that. A really good enf usually lasts about 75 seconds vs me toe to toe in a duel. That's without rrfe for the enf ofc. That's not bad imo.

And what's so bad about running? Running is something you do when you know you can't win. I do it quite often unless there is a point to dying. Such as saving my friends or keeping a position etc. The difference between running as an enf is that you have 1300-1400 more run speed than I do as soldier, you have 1300-1400 more nr than I do (at least), and if you do get rooted or snared you can instantly break free in most situations.

In addition to that you have vastly better heals and evades that at least do something. As a soldier, when AMS is doen and I'm running all I have is my heal delta, a few puny healperks and after a while reflects that aren't much better than rrfe that you too can get.

So yeah.. I run even though I will usually get rooted, debuffed into oblivion and owned quickly. Your running abilities are far better than mine. You should use them.

That is the main thing, running away is not right or wrong, good or bad, or anything of the sort on its own. It is personal perception by the players themselves and changes for everyone based upon circumstance. This is why when people make claims about professions it ignores what is involved for those claims to be true.

Enforcer survival is incredible, but you have to run away to have that survival. Duels are the only situations where an enforcer can guarantee the 7 or 8 tools necessary just to last 80 seconds with a soldier are even available, and that leaves them with one choice to survive if the soldier is just now using AMS, to run away.

There are people perfectly fine with running, and then there are people that think they should not have to run to win. While fixers I can see as a profession somewhat built around kiting, enforcers are far from it and is the main reason I cannot enjoy the profession in tl7 pvp. If soldiers were designed to where they must run away to survive then in my opinion the profession would be equally broken and I would not play it.

What I want for enforcers is to actually have no way to escape if their opponent does not want them to do so, but as a tanking profession they should have damage mitigation that makes the fight long and difficult for their opponent as well. I think soldiers are closer to that currently, but there are certain other aspects that make the soldier situation have its own set of problems.


On a sidenote, soldiers can reach about 300-500 more evades than enforcers while having the same levels of AR we reach in an equally defensive setup and mitigate significantly more damage making their healing better. We just have that ability to gtfo when we really need to and soldiers do not.

ps. I play enf too but at lower levels. I very often run into a crowd and kill 1-2 ppl and manage to get away most of the time. It's great

Enfs are vastly different before tl7. I am sure my experiences with my own soldier cannot compare to that of a tl7.

[Armus]

That is the main thing, running away is not right or wrong, good or bad, or anything of the sort on its own. It is personal perception by the players themselves and changes for everyone based upon circumstance. This is why when people make claims about professions it ignores what is involved for those claims to be true.

Enforcer survival is incredible, but you have to run away to have that survival. Duels are the only situations where an enforcer can guarantee the 7 or 8 tools necessary just to last 80 seconds with a soldier are even available, and that leaves them with one choice to survive if the soldier is just now using AMS, to run away.


There are people perfectly fine with running, and then there are people that think they should not have to run to win. While fixers I can see as a profession somewhat built around kiting, enforcers are far from it and is the main reason I cannot enjoy the profession in tl7 pvp. If soldiers were designed to where they must run away to survive then in my opinion the profession would be equally broken and I would not play it..

But you ARE able to win without running. Just not vs 5 ppl. I see enfs taking out squishies every time I am on BS and then proceeding to atack someone else. Eventualy they do run if met with strong opposition but that's normal, having to run when being outnumbered, right?

And let me state this: EVERYONE RUNS when faced with an overwhelming opposition. Some classes have to run immidiately while some with great defence such as engi, advie, soldier and in some cases enf can last a while and then run/try to run.

What I want for enforcers is to actually have no way to escape if their opponent does not want them to do so,

Try playing soldier and you have exactly that. Personally I think it's no fun that a greenie can keep you rooted forever. But hey that's me.

but as a tanking profession they should have damage mitigation that makes the fight long and difficult for their opponent as well.

I often see doc vs enf duels that last 5+ or 10+ minutes. And somehow, (I don't know how) but quite often the enf wins, even against teh bestest docs.

I think soldiers are closer to that currently, but there are certain other aspects that make the soldier situation have its own set of problems.

No. As a soldier you last 80 seconds and if the target isn't dead then you almost always drop. Sure you can survive to get a second ams vs some low dd classes but in no way do sold vs x duels go on as long as enf vs x do.
This is true at tl7 and even more true at tl5 and lower.

On a sidenote, soldiers can reach about 300-500 more evades than enforcers while having the same levels of AR
we reach in an equally defensive setup and mitigate significantly more damage making their healing better.

I'm going to be exactly as scientific about this as you were and reply with a: No.

We just have that ability to gtfo when we really need to and soldiers do not.

No argument there.

Enfs are vastly different before tl7. I am sure my experiences with my own soldier cannot compare to that of a tl7.

Doesn't mean that observations can't be made. Your own opinions about soldiers kind of proves that you don't think that you have to play a certain class to think you know it.

[Gatester]

But you ARE able to win without running. Just not vs 5 ppl. I see enfs taking out squishies every time I am on BS and then proceeding to atack someone else. Eventualy they do run if met with strong opposition but that's normal, having to run when being outnumbered, right?

And let me state this: EVERYONE RUNS when faced with an overwhelming opposition. Some classes have to run immidiately while some with great defence such as engi, advie, soldier and in some cases enf can last a while and then run/try to run.

It is not about winning when the enforcer runs away, it is usually a result of his alpha failing and the enforcer having no threat potential to any profession until the alpha is available again. If bio cocoon is not available, then the enforcer is similar to a 220 soldier running only RRFE and trying to last 60 seconds. Bio cocoon is similar to a 10 seconds AMS.

How many professions could your soldier survive with only RRFE and maybe a 10 second AMS? Cocoon is not only generally bypassed after that amount of time but I should also remind everyone that enforcers cannot utilize regular absorbs until the 30 second duration is over thanks to a bug in the mechanics.

Try playing soldier and you have exactly that. Personally I think it's no fun that a greenie can keep you rooted forever. But hey that's me.

Soldiers are screwed if someone wants to chain root/snare them, I am not saying it should be like it is now exactly. It should be hard to kill a tank, tanks should not be fleeing, but they should not be easily avoided either. Tanks need snares and stuns to prolong encounters but not have the ridiculous alpha potential enforcers currently have.

I often see doc vs enf duels that last 5+ or 10+ minutes. And somehow, (I don't know how) but quite often the enf wins, even against teh bestest docs.

What a horrible example lol. Enforcers can last 30 minutes against a doctor without any chance of dieing simply because of how unfair the enforcer toolset is against doctors. Even worse is that I am in no way referring to a standing duel situation where the enforcer has bio cocoon, BR, dreadloch booster, wit of the atrox and highway available alongside 68000ish max health thanks to IMUB. (Btw no enforcer can have wit+highway+CoLI+CoNC+MR...lots of people seem to think they can)

Realistic situations, enforcers have a hard time surviving when bio cocoon is in cooldown. Our evades may work well against greenies, crat pets, and doctors, but other than that everything hurts and our toolset works against us (stopping to spam absorbs while chasing a kiting target = fail).

No. As a soldier you last 80 seconds and if the target isn't dead then you almost always drop. Sure you can survive to get a second ams vs some low dd classes but in no way do sold vs x duels go on as long as enf vs x do.
This is true at tl7 and even more true at tl5 and lower.

About 60 seconds is plenty of time for a tank to survive an all-out encounter with their target, but the tank must also have the capability to kill any opponent in that time if their defenses do not hold up.

I'm going to be exactly as scientific about this as you were and reply with a: No.

Ok, the 500 point was way the hell off, I think I was looking at numbers with Wit included and was most likely a result of momentary loss of brain function. Comparing a def oriented enforcer to a def oriented soldier, enforcer duck is slightly higher, soldier evade close is about 200 higher, and soldier dodge is around 300 higher. Enforcers have a 30 second benefit from highway which gives them 200 more AAD, but that is hardly as useful as static evades and also means a loss of mongo rage.

The enforcer AR I am unsure about without my skill emulator but it should be around 3200-3300 with 1he and 1hb both having high variation depending on buffs and imps, and a soldier can have about 3250ish assault rifle AR in his def setup. If you want to add in the challenger proc which enforcers have no control over, then I can simply include soldier LE procs and those handy dodge debuffs.

It is not a question of disagreeing or not, it is simply impossible for an enforcer with 2650-2700 def to have his evades work better than a soldier with 2900-3000 def.

Doesn't mean that observations can't be made. Your own opinions about soldiers kind of proves that you don't think that you have to play a certain class to think you know it.

If the level of healing and the damage enforcers recieved were equivalent then the observation would be more valid. Unfortunately a 220 enforcer takes far more damage and heals less of it than enforcers do at lower levels. Their relative attack rating is also far higher than the relative defense of opponents at lower levels.



Just to point out, I feel enforcers are much stronger than soldiers in anything but zerg vs zerg pvp merely due to the range advantage soldiers have. Being able to tank damage is great if your opponent is forced to fight you during that time, but unfortunately soldiers cannot control their opponents. Enforcer's ability to flee almost any situation not only makes them one of the greatest survivalists but rather overpowered in mass pvp. Some of us just do not like to pvp as hit-n-run gankforcers, so we just need to find other professions to play or hope FC changes it.