Engineer mines

[Manaas]

It means the chance of a successful trial goes up with every subsequent trial. It has nothing to do with how many people or Engi pets do the trials.

Number of pets is NOT SIGNIFICANT to landrate of the snares.

As you have by now figured out, number of successful snares in a given time frame is not the same thing as the landrate, which is what everyone but you is talking about.

well seeing as I started the debate must mean that you're all a bunch of idiots then.

And you clearly don't see how to apply binomial distribution here because we are INCREASING the amount of trials, therefore the cumulative probability of getting 4> successes in 36 trials is massively higher than the cumulative probability of 4 successes in 18 trials.

You need to either have your degree revoked or the university maths department needs to be shut down if you can't even apply what you've learnt.

[Bonghigs]

This thread has been hilarious!

You've got one guy clearly stating mathematical facts. You've got another guy who thinks he knows math twisting words and making nonsense. The best part: the guy who thinks he knows math knows so little about math that he has no clue how wrong he is.


On-Topic: While engi mines are really annoying, to call them OP is just QQ. You play a keeper, a profession known for having issues with CC. If getting CC'd pisses you off, choose a profession less vulnerable to CC.

This isn't a nerf to Keepers, it's called knowing your profession and choosing a profession that fits what you want out of the game. My shade is amazingly weak against CC in BS currently; do i go crying about it and wishing for nerfs? No. instead, when CC frustrates me i make/log a toon that is less vulnerable and LOL as they try to root me.

[sultryvoltron]

well seeing as I started the debate must mean that you're all a bunch of idiots then.

And you clearly don't see how to apply binomial distribution here because we are INCREASING the amount of trials, therefore the cumulative probability of getting 4> successes in 36 trials is massively higher than the cumulative probability of 4 successes in 18 trials.

You need to either have your degree revoked or the university maths department needs to be shut down if you can't even apply what you've learnt.

You're telling me that one pet couldn't achieve 36 trials on it's own?

You are right though, more trials means you are more likely to have a success. Still, the number of pets attempting the trials does not even come in to play. Again, number of pets is NOT SIGNIFICANT to landrate.

[Manaas]

You, sir, are utterly ridiculous.

Yes of course it could achieve 36 trials by itself, but how many trials would 2 pets have made in the same time frame?

How does that affect the likelihood of a success in that time frame?

Where have I ever said anything about landrate in my posts? I have said success rate, which encompasses both pets. I have never said anything to do with "individual land rate of each pet" or any variations thereof.

You have been shoving words into my mouth this entire thread and it's about time you just admit you're talking out of your ass and just stop.

I hope you can answer those three questions yourself and then realise what I am actually talking about.

I am just going to stop now and get back on topic: Engineer mines need to be changed, positively.

I am not suggesting massive nerfing, I just said for the duration to be decreased and have the versatility increased, more on the increasing versatility.

6minutes cooldown is longer than most profs "long" cooldowns of 5 minutes for something that has relatively little use in general pvp apart from making a non advy/enf melee prof a free kill every 6 minutes.

If it was changed to 6-8 seconds duration and 1-2minute cooldown, it would be used a lot more and in the long run be MUCH more useful to engineers.

I even suggested it to be usable in PvM giving engineers a bit more utility in that department.

Nano drain mines could also be changed like this, reduce the amount it drains by an amount proportional to the cooldown duration and with the rebalance in mind we could see engineers being a very interesting threat to casting professions.

[sultryvoltron]

Yes of course it could achieve 36 trials by itself, but how many trials would 2 pets have made in the same time frame?

The time frame the trials occur in has nothing to do with how many trials occur. It could take me 15 years to flip a coin 1000 times, but as long a I get there, who cares how long it took? Speaking in terms of calculating probabilities I mean. Of course, Kite was trying to calculate the probability of landing a snare, not the frequency of landing a snare.

How does that affect the likelihood of a success in that time frame?

The likelihood of a success is based on the number of trials in a binomial distribution. It has nothing to do with the timeframe. More trials = more likely to get a success.

I have said success rate, which encompasses both pets.

Which is entirely not true. The success rate is determined by what you consider a success. In this case, a success is considered to be a snare landing. Thus, if any snare lands, regardless of how many pets are there, it is a success. So, one pet would have the same chance of a successful snare as two pets, 4/18 = 2/9 = 8/36 = 16/72 = .222222

Where have I ever said anything about landrate in my posts?

Here's a few examples of you talking about landrate, although maybe you didn't know that because you don't know what you're talking about:

then you're utterly deluded or just not telling the truth. Science dictates that it will have a higher chance of landing if you have TWO rolls at it. Unless you can prove mathematics wrong then I'm not going to believe you.

we're NOT talking about mutually exclusive probability

so the probability of one of the pets landing the aura is statistically higher than one pet by itself

If you're too blind to notice that 4/18 is the same as 8/36 then god help us, what are our schools teaching children these days.

Hope I answered those questions suitably.

[Mostadio]

Why are you still hung up on this math? Get a cat or something.

[sultryvoltron]

Why are you still hung up on this math? Get a cat or something.

Because froob leveling is slow?

Anyways, Engi mines are fine. The snare aura is weak though.

[-Stage-]

I don't consider them working only on BS to be "fine", nor them being limited to 2 uses per 6 minutes.

[sultryvoltron]

I don't consider them working only on BS to be "fine", nor them being limited to 2 uses per 6 minutes.

Well, I should rephrase to "not overpowered". Really, any items locked to BS only should have that flag removed. Also, the amount of uses per minute could be remedied by making the cast time on these things quite long (15 or so seconds), but having no cooldown. There's no reason they should be effectively used like a short distance thrown grenade in combat.

I think the idea of combat engineering should be vastly improved, like building baracades with collision detection (Force Fields?), mines, auto-turrets, etc.

[Kazeran]

I don't consider them working only on BS to be "fine", nor them being limited to 2 uses per 6 minutes.

I don't consider it "fine" that an engi can stand on me and drop a mine to drain half my nano pool either even though I never step a foot.

[Mostadio]

I don't consider it "fine" that an engi can stand on me and drop a mine to drain half my nano pool either even though I never step a foot.

I know, we should be able to do it from the other side of the room.

[Obtena]

I don't consider it "fine" that an engi can stand on me and drop a mine to drain half my nano pool either even though I never step a foot.

I don't see a problem with that ... it's a proximity mine. It don't mean you have to step on it, you just need to be near it.

[sultryvoltron]

I know, we should be able to do it from the other side of the room.

I'm gonna go ahead and bump this. Combat Engineers shouldn't be limited to mines, but should be able to have status effect thrown explosives.

Obviously, a thrown grenade would have a smaller effect than a mine.

Really, the best solution is longer cast times on mines, capped even, and no lockout. Keep the check for how many mines can be out at one time, but it should probably be upped to 4. Can the proximity code be copied for Towers and used for mine placement as well?

[Manaas]

The time frame the trials occur in has nothing to do with how many trials occur. It could take me 15 years to flip a coin 1000 times, but as long a I get there, who cares how long it took? Speaking in terms of calculating probabilities I mean. Of course, Kite was trying to calculate the probability of landing a snare, not the frequency of landing a snare.


The likelihood of a success is based on the number of trials in a binomial distribution. It has nothing to do with the timeframe. More trials = more likely to get a success.


Which is entirely not true. The success rate is determined by what you consider a success. In this case, a success is considered to be a snare landing. Thus, if any snare lands, regardless of how many pets are there, it is a success. So, one pet would have the same chance of a successful snare as two pets, 4/18 = 2/9 = 8/36 = 16/72 = .222222

Here's a few examples of you talking about landrate, although maybe you didn't know that because you don't know what you're talking about:







Hope I answered those questions suitably.

No you haven't because there's nowhere in any of the quotes you're taken that has any suggestion that I have been talking about landrates of individual pets having any correlation with the number of pets involved. Congrats for making yourself look like a fool.

And you are just totally retarded, time frame doesn't matter? Are you being serious? Time frame doesn't matter in pvp? REALLY?

Would also just like to outline this part:

The likelihood of a success is based on the number of trials in a binomial distribution. It has nothing to do with the timeframe. More trials = more likely to get a success.

MORE TRIALS HAPPENING IN SAME TIME FRAME= MORE LIKELY TO GET SUCCESS IN GIVEN TIME FRAME.

Please for the love of god, try to use your brain.

[sultryvoltron]

No you haven't because there's nowhere in any of the quotes you're taken that has any suggestion that I have been talking about landrates of individual pets having any correlation with the number of pets involved. Congrats for making yourself look like a fool.

And you are just totally retarded, time frame doesn't matter? Are you being serious? Time frame doesn't matter in pvp? REALLY?

Would also just like to outline this part:



MORE TRIALS HAPPENING IN SAME TIME FRAME= MORE LIKELY TO GET SUCCESS IN GIVEN TIME FRAME.

Please for the love of god, try to use your brain.

...higher chance of landing... ...probability of one of the pets landing the aura is statistically higher than one pet by itself... ...4/18 is the same as 8/36...

You're just flailing about now. If you don't see how you're talking about landrate in those posts, then you do not know what you are talking about. If you don't see how you're trying to change the landrate simply because you have two pets, then you do not know what you are talking about. So in short, you do not know what you are talking about. Sorry.

Also, binomial distributions don't account for time. They never have. Never. It only accounts for the number of trials. If you want to apply this to a certain number of trials in a certain amount of time, the you want to talk about the frequency of trials. This does not change the probabilities of success of each trial, nor does it change how many trials you will need to obtain a success.

Sincerely,
A Fool.

[drainbamage]

Why do these threads always get bogged down in semantic bull****? Are half the posters on this forum autistic or something?

[MajorOutage]

Why do these threads always get bogged down in semantic bull****? Are half the posters on this forum autistic or something?

Welcome to the internet.

[Mostadio]

Why do these threads always get bogged down in semantic bull****? Are half the posters on this forum autistic or something?

It's what happens when many people, who aren't as smart as they think, gather together in anonymity.

[Manaas]

i give up.

coconut got hit more times, that's all there is to it.