End of skillbased AO ?

[borriss]

In one sense I do agree with Stillkeeping, but I am 110% for twinking though.. And think that it's still awesome to do.. And amazes me how much effort can be put into twinking (and the really insane twinks, that takes skill..)
However I want funcom to come up with something that makes it possible to level consistently without twinking too hard.. It's really hard to get above the 60 mark for new players who can't understand the system really well... And if you're new to games in general and hit that brick wall of Anarchy, you'll have a really hard time figuring that out on your own.

But there's actually a few things I like more than preparing my toon for a hard long session of levelling... I remember tweaking my toons at 105ish to give ely hecklers a real go, and I enjoyed that so much... Even if it would be hours upon hours of hecklers, I would prefere that over Kiting any day.
Y'know at 100ish the hecklers are so damn hard, even if you twink pretty nicely... And after a good while when you start reaching 140 you see that you can start to solo them, that feeling was awesome:P Hecklers were so powerful.. Now they are just **** on with 220's tanking and an NT nuking in Ely.




And even if it was really hard for first timers to achieve that, it didn't matter if you had 1-2 semi twinked players in the team a team could always manage to level... That is a good AO to me.

Today after Nascense hecklers, what do people use to level on? Mainly Mortiigs in Ely, it's hard to find teams for this at least on RK2. And furthermore, what about when you hit 105 on mortiigs. Ely beach stands empty, and no one around... You want to kill hecklers, but you have to pay 5m/lvl because some NT is running a business there... Is this right? How is he supposed to level?

I also miss RK hackers and 8x8... As Notcrattey's signature says, give RK mobs better xp, and make RK matter again.
RK is lovely because you can use a weapon that has rubbish min damage... Makes weapon selection easy, enfs can use tango dirks, advs can us BBI's.. In general stuff that's easily obtainable and deals nice damage. Ofcourse this too has to be tweaked on, or you won't do as much damage as the next guy who did! But that my dear friends, is the lovely uniqueness of AO...
And I love that, I love to be that rock... That when I level my teammates don't have to be uber, or twinked.. Because I am that rock that carries it

Reason I'm so worked up about this lately, is my younger brother started playing and... I see how really inconvenient it is to get "into" AO... We're currently doing ely hecks, where I'm logging 220 doc/220 enf 220 crat for perks and 160 NT to nuke.. So I fill all roles. Before I intervened, he never managed to get above 70 or so. Because his weapons were just horrid, he had very bad implants and what not.. And most important he didn't know how he could manipulate stats and interfere with skills Which left him very weak.


So my stand: Twinking is awesome, and makes AO very unique.
Seeing draining disapear for traders (will be level based drains) and such would be horrible. I just hope they let wrangle stay the way it is now. But as I sated give new equipment to new players that will do a good job levelling, but make sure that the ones that want to twink into something always get an better alternative. This should be doable.

[Rustytools]

You've never done really low level twinking then, people are CONSTANTLY pushing the limits there. And it takes a lot more than just the gear to accomplish it.

Constantly pushing the limits, eh?

What, running lowbies to inferno for the rings or something?

Come on crattey, don't argue here matey. That last guy who was doing serious twinking was Arty I think, and we all know that he was all skill and no cash, right? ^^

But how does it take a lot more than just gear to accomplish it? I mean come on, its not like you have to figure out puzzles or anything. It's like doing research for a school project; just cause you had a good report for your teacher, doesn't really mean you have 'uber skills.' You just put the time into it.

And what with the prices on twinking stuff, I think a good chunk of people who at heart really could like the twinking system are turned off big time. Call me a weirdo, that's just what I think.

[Gridpain]

Come on crattey, don't argue here matey. That last guy who was doing serious twinking was Arty I think, and we all know that he was all skill and no cash, right? ^^

http://lorddredd-anarchy.blogspot.com/

But that's not even the issue here.
The fact is, after rebalance, a 160 advi with decent equipement (nothing fancy, just decent symb, IP put in nano skills) will cast the same morph that a 160 advi in med suit with QL 10 implants ..

[ArienSky]

I am for a skill based AO, that is what makes AO good and unique.
That means NO nanos that just scale based on LVL, and no LVL locked nanos.

High skill = high reward

PS. Stillkeeping, I have not noticed you around before, but will give you a couple of tips on posting here..

1) only XXX is a good person
That is rather rude to say "That last guy who was doing serious twinking was Arty"
There are -very- likely a lot of people you do not know, that might not be boasting so much about their twinking that you hear it.

2) "It's like doing research for a school project; just cause you had a good report for your teacher, doesn't really mean you have 'uber skills.' You just put the time into it."
Logical fallacy
If -everyone- can do the same, but the only thing required is time, then why do we have schools or training?
See some are good at and enjoy the puzzle of twinking.
and if you can not see it as a multi factor puzzle, sadly I can not state it anyway else than you are factually wrong; the factors being the equipment slots, requirement to get item in, what the output is and how that output enables another slot to be uprated and so forth till no further uprating is possible.

The smart guy/gal makes a plan and does it right the first or second time.
But you are right, with an infinite number of monkeys, they could make a twink too, but that would mean trying a lot of dumb and silly combinations.

secondly mentioning school-work makes it sound immature. If you were dissing how easy it is to make a report for EFDA though, you would get my respect
(and no, they do not hire based on "with enough time I will be able to find out, no skill needed here")

[Gridpain]

I am for a skill based AO, that is what makes AO good and unique.
That means NO nanos that just scale based on LVL, and no LVL locked nanos.

Agreed !

Except that if FC could find a way to level lock nanos on target except when the target is the caster himself, it would be good.

I mean, level lock GSF so that a high level fixer cannot cast it on a level 15 = ok
but if a TL3 fixer is twinked enough to cast it, let him cast it on himself only. (or on toon over the level lock, of course).

[Hvyshadows]

I mean, level lock GSF so that a high level fixer cannot cast it on a level 15 = ok
but if a TL3 fixer is twinked enough to cast it, let him cast it on himself only. (or on toon over the level lock, of course).

I couldn't agree more that level locking is a bad trend. Means himself has said that limiting the ability to use items based on level is bad, limiting based on skill is good. In some ways, I think we are our own worst enemy in this kind of thing, though. One of the major aspects of being able to increase your skills to a ridiculous highs for your level is based on outside buffs. Getting the right combination of gear and buffs is critical to putting on high level gear, which allows you to get better gear on, which allows you to cast higher nanos and such, etc. Laddering ftw! However, we do complain, and rightly so, about lower level toons being able to receive buffs that give them "un-fair" advantages particularly in PvP. And so there's bound to be some sort of hybrid between level and skill.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't limit the level for being able to receive certain buffs, but where do you draw the line? BEHE would be a good example. It's a critical buff for twinking, but it also can double or in some cases triple to HP of a low level toon and lasts for an hour.

I say just remove level locks altogether.

Also, @Stillkeeping, you clearly don't understand the topic or, in fact, the game. You've spewed enough hate against well funded, well equipped toons in other places. Yeah, we get that you're mad that you don't have access yet to all the gear that makes some of this stuff possible or gives players what you feel is an unfair advantage. But it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

[ArienSky]

Agreed !

Except that if FC could find a way to level lock nanos on target except when the target is the caster himself, it would be good.

I mean, level lock GSF so that a high level fixer cannot cast it on a level 15 = ok
but if a TL3 fixer is twinked enough to cast it, let him cast it on himself only. (or on toon over the level lock, of course).

A quite good idea actually
for once a lvl lock I might partially support.

Why I will not fully support it is the loss of Anarchy.
In the skill based system having a high-skilled friend should help out.

Have a hard time with a mob or an annoying griefer?
Log on your main and deal with it or assist the low lvl to overcome the problem.

But I agree that NCU is a too important stat in AO, compared ot the others.
A -target- lvl lock that does not affect your self -or your own team/pvp bracket- I will support.

A twink should still be able to support his team I think.
Sure then people could "just" make twinks for every team bracket and every buff, but that indeed is harder than having just 1 lvl 220 agent.
(and work should lead to rewards)

Kind Regards
-Ariensky

*edit* post posted while writing

I'm not saying that we shouldn't limit the level for being able to receive certain buffs, but where do you draw the line? BEHE would be a good example. It's a critical buff for twinking, but it also can double or in some cases triple to HP of a low level toon and lasts for an hour.

I say just remove level locks altogether.

I can only agree
the most optimal would be a balancing where 100 IP spend on weapon, nano, HP or Computer Literacy skill should give (roughly) the same benefit.

or at least that you might be able to have the NCU for BEHE, but it would leave you without evades, weapon and nano skills. (no TL caps)


But if that balancing is not done (and it is hard to do right), a -target- lvl lock is an acceptable band-aid to me.


As I see it NCU costs should stay around the same for the low QL nanos, but the higher ones should be more expensive and/or make CL more expensive.
First of all removing the composites as they are ruining it all.
the individual mochams takes up 50 NCU a piece, for a combined 300 NCU needed, it is scaled, you have a choice of what to get, based on cost..
but then the composite with a cost of just 48 NCU for -all of them- comes and breaks the scale/balancing.

Also composite attributes..
make the individual buffs last 4 hours and be quick casts, but let each and every buff have an NCU cost tied with it, instead of "free" packages of a bazillion nanos.. (comp att, comp nano at 4 NCU) making them must-haves rather than a choice.

[Hvyshadows]

First of all removing the composites as they are ruining it all.
the individual mochams takes up 50 NCU a piece, for a combined 300 NCU needed, it is scaled, you have a choice of what to get, based on cost..
but then the composite with a cost of just 48 NCU for -all of them- comes and breaks the scale/balancing.

Agreed. Although I would leave composite teachings, masteries, infuses, and mochams in the game as MP self only. There should be some benefit to being a high level MP.

[lainbr]

D: Dun nerf MP's Composites.

But i agree with general idea.

[Waahash]

. . . about NCU useage and composites . . .

Would work better if Fixers didn't buff NCU, or people swapping NCUs/Sanctuary Keys/NCU Ring/other various items to overbuff their current NCU (and yes, it hinders some people to an extent, but I still do it alot) provided they could swap back without much or any hassle.

But remove a Fixer NCU buff and you'd stifle one of the things you'd want a fixer in team for.

[ArienSky]

Would work better if Fixers didn't buff NCU, or people swapping NCUs/Sanctuary Keys/NCU Ring/other various items to overbuff their current NCU (and yes, it hinders some people to an extent, but I still do it alot) provided they could swap back without much or any hassle.

But remove a Fixer NCU buff and you'd stifle one of the things you'd want a fixer in team for.

good point and you are actually pointing towards the solution yourself
You mention "overbuffing"; that you can have more NCU running than you have memory.

"all you need" is a modified version of Epsilon Purge that will run 180 seconds(3 minutes) after you have gone OE on the NCU.

I put in 180 seconds as that should be sufficient for people to re-equip belts and NCU (else there would be no need for the trader CL buffs, if they could not use them)

As you can see with Epsilon Purge, the mechanic for removing nanos is already there, we "just" need it implemented in the event of overbuffing.

the coming 4 hour nanos indeed can become a pain if overbuffing is not handled in some way.


A team NCU aura that (more or less) actively requires the presence of a Fixer I would not mind though, as long as the NCU buffs are reasonable.
And to be honest: I seldom run out of NCU, even without a fixer, I once did, but at 1100 CL I reach a turning point, where I have the NCU for all my own nanos, and some to spare for team buffs.

Kind Regards
-Ariensky

[Rustytools]

I am for a skill based AO, that is what makes AO good and unique.
That means NO nanos that just scale based on LVL, and no LVL locked nanos.

High skill = high reward

PS. Stillkeeping, I have not noticed you around before, but will give you a couple of tips on posting here..

1) only XXX is a good person
That is rather rude to say "That last guy who was doing serious twinking was Arty"
There are -very- likely a lot of people you do not know, that might not be boasting so much about their twinking that you hear it.

2) "It's like doing research for a school project; just cause you had a good report for your teacher, doesn't really mean you have 'uber skills.' You just put the time into it."
Logical fallacy
If -everyone- can do the same, but the only thing required is time, then why do we have schools or training?
See some are good at and enjoy the puzzle of twinking.
and if you can not see it as a multi factor puzzle, sadly I can not state it anyway else than you are factually wrong; the factors being the equipment slots, requirement to get item in, what the output is and how that output enables another slot to be uprated and so forth till no further uprating is possible.

The smart guy/gal makes a plan and does it right the first or second time.
But you are right, with an infinite number of monkeys, they could make a twink too, but that would mean trying a lot of dumb and silly combinations.

secondly mentioning school-work makes it sound immature. If you were dissing how easy it is to make a report for EFDA though, you would get my respect
(and no, they do not hire based on "with enough time I will be able to find out, no skill needed here")

Whoa oldist attack. Alright lemme try and defend myself.

1) I mentioned artyomis by name because I know his intelligence actually exceeded some customer service rep's. PLEASE name one more instance like his.... <.<....

2) Why do we have schools or training has NOTHING to do with everyone can get straight A's in those schools or training. You completely missed my point, and I really can't think of any other way to phrase it. So lemme provide an anecdote.

Think of it this way. Can everyone run a 6 minute mile? Why yes, everyone has that capability.People sit of their fat asses all day, they don't train, so they can't get up and run it right now, but with the proper training, every able-bodied human can do it.

On the other hand, can everyone run a sub 4 minute mile? No. It requires special genes. It requires dedication. In short, not everyone can do it.

Twinking is like the 6 minute mile. Only what's holding me and everyone else who tries AO back is the fact that you must first grind for a few months on a completely gimp character. We don't wanna do that.

3) Mentioning school work makes me sound immature. Do you even know what the word "mature" means? What you meant to say was mentioning school made me sound childish, perhaps, or young, or w/e. Apparently you have something against children.

Interesting. Do you voice sentiments of this sort in public all the time, or simply using the anonymity of the internet to your advantage? At any rate, this quaint little ad hominem does little to add to your arguement imho.

[Waahash]

Think of it this way. Can everyone run a 6 minute mile? Why yes, everyone has that capability.People sit of their fat asses all day, they don't train, so they can't get up and run it right now, but with the proper training, every able-bodied human can do it.

People sit of their fat asses all day, they don't train, so they can't get up and run it right now, but with the proper training, every able-bodied human can do it.

Twinking is like the 6 minute mile. Only what's holding me and everyone else who tries AO back is the fact that you must first grind for a few months on a completely gimp character. We don't wanna do that.

So you are the "fatass" that won't "get up and run it." Proper assessment. Also, if twinking is your 6 minute mile, what, in AO, is the 4 minute mile?

3) Mentioning school work makes me sound immature. Do you even know what the word "mature" means? What you meant to say was mentioning school made me sound childish, perhaps, or young, or w/e. Apparently you have something against children.

Ironic.

Interesting. Do you voice sentiments of this sort in public all the time, or simply using the anonymity of the internet to your advantage? At any rate, this quaint little ad hominem does little to add to your arguement imho.

COMBO: 2x.

[ArienSky]

This is a hard one keeping on track/topic while still being open and honest, but here it goes
Thank you Waahash, you have a very good question in:

Twinking is like the 6 minute mile. Only what's holding me and everyone else who tries AO back is the fact that you must first grind for a few months on a completely gimp character. We don't wanna do that.

On the other hand, can everyone run a sub 4 minute mile? No. It requires special genes. It requires dedication. In short, not everyone can do it.

If twinking is your 6 minute mile, what, in AO, is the 4 minute mile?

I concur with Waahash in that it indeed is a skill not just about getting the items. I like having a goal and work for it.
The obvious buffs are "grinds" eg. the + map navig hood from COH, that is the first go-to for map navig, but then it gets more complicated and intriguing..
NODROPs you have to get wtihout buying(I am against NODROPs in general though), what attribute does map-navig implants require?
How do I raise that attribute and ladder till I have the map-navig needed for sided view?

the challenge, that will not be beaten with just time:
How low can you go and still succeed?

for me and others getting those 90+ implants on a lvl 9 is indeed a fun challenge, and something that takes more effort and thought than a 6 minute run

Implants, what attribute they require contra slot contra skill-buff is not that simple again
At least not to me, but then again, if you find putting QL 90 implants on lvl 9 easy, I will recommend you to join EVE online, they have more complex systems there.

Kind Regards
-Ariensky

PS. The big PS..
I value feedback, in the sense that more often than I would like, people are keeping quiet about something that disturbs or annoy them, and rather than getting it fixed by confronting the person and get the issue dealt with, they gossip, backtalk or just get nasty(name-calling), without explaining why.

In that reference I try to put things as I observe them (when I have the time), to help people to better see how others view what they are typing and in that way have a -contentious- decision on how to project themselves.
With no feedback it is an uncontentious choice, just doing as regular.

I would never write "you are dumb" as you can not use that for improvement, but rather specific things, pointing out how it can be improved (hopefully).

See "I know his intelligence actually exceeded some customer service rep's." indeed sounds rude, but if you apply statistics it is actually quite simple:
the average IQ is 100
if you have 100 customer service representatives, you are VERY likely to have at least "some" under 100, so it is a trivial thing to say that an intelligent guy is better than the dumbest customer service representatives.
Does it make it more polite though?
I think not.

Making customer service representatives sound dumb in general, just to promote one guy is a bad move. Just as if I were to say "Obama is more intelligent than Waahash" hence cucumbers taste great.
Obama's intelligence does not affect the taste of cucumbers..
and adding in the "look who is dumber than Obama" is the rude part, not adding to the point.
Secondly customer service is more about -knowledge- than intelligence, at least from my years of experience..

As for specific names(you asked): I am sorry, but I have not cleared it with the twinks I know, releasing their names as "über-twinks", they are people I know that indeed do extraordinary thing, and they do it for fun, not recognition.
Without knowing your guy I can of-cause not for sure say that I know someone more intelligent, but knowing the distribution of IQ, I can say I am pretty likely to know someone with a higher IQ.
and if he isn't able to get into Mensa, then I can indeed confirm I know someone with a higher IQ than his..

again, what has this got to do with twinking?
you are the one claiming intelligence has nothing to do with twinking..
and even with my view of twinking requiring though(intelligence) I would say that IQ is not the meter of "customer service representatives are dumb", noor the merit of the twink.
What QL to get on at what lvl is the objective merit
Hence the point:
"XXX is the best" is usually a silly argument
as you can not know that without knowing -everyone-.
Thumbs up to you artyomis, for your mad twinking
I just think there should be the possibility for there to be modest twinkers out there twinking at the same lvl, we are sharing server, mechanics and items after all
So I don't think the "last guy who was doing serious twinking was Arty" as is claimed.

The thing I have against it (explained) is that it very little indirectly (close to directly) calls everyone but artyomis in-serious about twinking, which I would consider rude.
If they enjoy what they do and takes it serious, then who is the judge of what is serious or not, -without knowing the persons-, but talking about everyone but one guy.

is 6 slot belt on a lvl 1 so common these days that it is no longer considered serious twinking?
I know a couple working on that.
Of-cause it is doable by others, as we have a scientific approach and the same conditions to work under (perfect lab conditions)
The challenge is to find out how and do it
And those I know indeed take it as serious fun



3) Yes, I know what mature means, immature is the negation of it, as in "un-mature", I would not use it unless I knew it's derivative.
I hate explaining grammatic in writing, so let us cut to the chase:

I find "childish" to be more negatively charged, and less objective. Further more as I know the word and meaning, childish is often a -deliberate- state/choice, whereas immature is something that is not 100% your fault, as maturity comes with experience and learning.
Just stating that you sound young would not encompass this added meaning, further more a grown-up can indeed be immature, but (s)he can not be young.

The "school grades are easy" -> "everything is easy" frame of reference leads me to thing that no greater challenges than a paper that can be "researched" in few minutes (on google/wikipedia) has been experienced.
The projection that "everything in life so far has been easy(just taken time) -> everything in life is easy(just taking time)"
Is what I find the word immature covering pretty well.
A wrongful projection, but not one made by an malicious intend, but rather a lacking scope of mind.
At least in my life and my line of research it is -not- something done in a few minutes and wikipedia/google does not have an article about it..

Writing
"It's like making a sand-castle in the play pen; just caus you got god star, doesn't really mean you have 'uber skills.' You just put the time into it."
Would make me seem childish, as it is a reference to kindergarden child's play.
How I would have put it:
"Just because you get paid for something doesn't have to mean you are an expert, you can do just fine by just putting time into it"

But to be honest I would skip the analogy there.. and just go for "Twinking does not require skill, if you are not doing it to the extend artyomis is, it just requires time grinding the items" if that was my view.

then I avoid comparing twinks to just be school/kindergarden children.
Further more "school is my frame of reference to life", can very easily (at least to me) can be interpreted as "school is my only experience in life".

It might not be so, but again, that is what "immature" covers: something -perceived- as being less than mature, less experienced.



"At any rate, this quaint little ad hominem does little to add to your arguement imho."
Which is why I put it in a PS
it is not meant to be "because I find the way you write rude you are less right".
I value good imput and ideas, and people having difficulties communicating can indeed have great ideas, thank Spaghetti-Monster for sign-language

Every idea is indeed welcomed, and logic defines that even a badly posted idea has as much validity the well structured one.

BUT in society the well-structured ones are favoured, and why not learn that skill for free in a forum, rather than waste a job-interview finding out
(and minus point to you if you say forum posts are not important, but job-interviews are.
Then you are just saying you are rude on purpose, yes I am looking at YOU [not you Stillkeeping, but that AO forum Troll])

I hope you got something out of this
Seeing other ways of how what you write can be perceived, and why.

Kind Regards to you Stillkeeping, thank you for reading the feedback.

[Waahash]

yes I am looking at YOU [not you Stillkeeping, but that AO forum Troll])

I have a name

[lainbr]

@ArienSky >.> I think you lost time and keyboard lifetime. He will flame you soon with childish comparitions and such.

BACO TO TOPIC:
Change adv morphs to requires nanoskills to cast a better ones instead of lvl and everything is fixed.

[Xtremtech]

Hmm yes... but... the nanos that you are morphing to use still have full rising lines, with rising requirements.... it's not as though the benefits of morphing are entirely available without continued increases in skills investment, is it?

From the design of the morphs, it's also pretty clear that FC wanted Advies to be morphing more fluidly during combat - rather than choosing a morph and sticking to it for hours and hours. Reducing the numbers of different base morph nanos makes that more viable to some degree - and it also makes the morphs more resistant to nanoskill debuffs, again encouraging more fluid in-combat morphing... though the nanos they cast in the morphs are of course still susceptible to that.

The concept of the morph lines has completely changed... and to some degree that means there need to be other changes commensurate with that. You can't look at it as being like the existing lines are suddenly being changed to have much less casting requirements... You need to look at it as an entirely new line that has been built, with different purpose, different concept and so different requirements.

X

[Gridpain]

Hmm yes... but... the nanos that you are morphing to use still have full rising lines, with rising requirements.... it's not as though the benefits of morphing are entirely available without continued increases in skills investment, is it?
X

Well, that's the issue, morph line rises with caster (or target) level with the same nano skill reqs that the first of the line.

That's the main issue I m trying to raise in this thread.

[Xtremtech]

I may not have made myself clear there... Much of the benefit of the morphs comes from the nanos that you can cast when in a given morph... and those nanos do have increasing nano requirements. So, going into healing morph may be trivial - but casting the heal nanos themselves is not and requires heavy skill investment.

The morphs should perhaps be seen more as a 'stance'... it's the other nanos that you can cast when in the morph that are the thing that rises in skill requirement. I'm not arguing that you're wrong... because obviously you have a point. But it's not necessarily as strong a point as it may initially appear.

X

[Gridpain]

Indeed, I didnt understand you

Ok, in that case, make a very low reqs morph that gives only the "stance" without buffed attached, and make the buffs given by the current line a line that scales with reqs, and I m happy ...