Balance: AO vs any other game

[aramsunat]

so dumbing down AO pvp would make it more popular? LOL

SWTOR is popular not because it has great mechanics, but because it has a truckload of hype, million-dollar marketing, up-to date gfx, and a gameplay so dumb that people below 70 IQ are able to play it.

However, people who love AO love it at least partly for its complexity, so that can be (while undoubtedly excluding the numerous low-end of the population) its competitive advantages. I belive there are still a lot of people who like a slightly higher intellectual challenge.

What AO needs is:

1, New gfx
2, HUGE marketing campaign

This two is enough to get a heckload of people start playing the game. Once they start playing you are halfway to success.

3, A really great and involving (and a bit spoonfeeding) starter experience.

Once people actually start liking the game they will stick to it for a looooong time. Ie. bad starter experience scares people off.

4, Profit.

Mechanics, balance and other crap has nothing to do with getting players into the game. We all "suffered" cheesy mechanics, imbalance and endless grinding yet we still did it, not because we are so damn cool guys and girls but because the game was involving

[McKnuckleSamwich]

so dumbing down AO pvp would make it more popular? LOL

SWTOR is popular not because it has great mechanics, but because it has a truckload of hype, million-dollar marketing, up-to date gfx, and a gameplay so dumb that people below 70 IQ are able to play it.

However, people who love AO love it at least partly for its complexity, so that can be (while undoubtedly excluding the numerous low-end of the population) its competitive advantages. I belive there are still a lot of people who like a slightly higher intellectual challenge.

What AO needs is:

1, New gfx
2, HUGE marketing campaign

This two is enough to get a heckload of people start playing the game. Once they start playing you are halfway to success.

3, A really great and involving (and a bit spoonfeeding) starter experience.

Once people actually start liking the game they will stick to it for a looooong time. Ie. bad starter experience scares people off.

4, Profit.

Mechanics, balance and other crap has nothing to do with getting players into the game. We all "suffered" cheesy mechanics, imbalance and endless grinding yet we still did it, not because we are so damn cool guys and girls but because the game was involving

It's not about dumbing down AO pvp.

You aren't reading the OP.

The point is that if you got mechanics in game that are WTF broken, you need some way to get a handle on them.

When was the last time AO devs checked game metrics?

Thats right, NEVER. So, how in hell are the dev's supposed to understand how broken mechanics are? Right, through forum discussion.

I am pretty sure everyone who's ever played AO at any level beyond about level 30 has a pretty reasonable idea of why Aimed shot is broken. If people at level 30 understand it, they utilize it before level 100, abuse it from 100-150 and beyond 150 it's always, as it ALWAYS has been, an AS contest. Whoever has more on a side wins wars.

Thats a broken mechanic. there are many many more, but, clearly, that is the worst.

At least SWTOR has the foresight to add checks to attacks to make sure there are always reigns they can pull in when thigns get out of control.

Dumbing down AO? Hardly. Keeping it real?

[Otansaanpas]

Dumbing down AO? Hardly. Keeping it real?.

AO is dumbed down if pvp requires more than /assist + o.

[drainbamage]

At least SWTOR has the foresight to add checks to attacks to make sure there are always reigns they can pull in when thigns get out of control.

Dumbing down AO? Hardly. Keeping it real?

There's little point in arguing with someone who thinks the only things keeping AO from rising like a phoenix are bad graphics and lack of advertising.

[Phixalicious]

there's little point in arguing with someone who thinks the only things keeping ao from rising like a phoenix are bad graphics and lack of advertising.

+10

[McKnuckleSamwich]

AO is dumbed down if pvp requires more than /assist + o.

Isn't it the other way around?

AO IS dumbed down because all PVP really requires is /assist + O

1st step in PVP recovery:
/assist
script not found.

2nd step in PVP recovery:
Aimed shot is affected by AC, can be dodged (?) check vs 50% DR+AAD? and is limited to Bows (20m range max), rifles (40m range max), and shotguns (10m range max) and has a capped recharge if stationary for agents of 11s, 20s if moving, and 20s for all other professions.

There's little point in arguing with someone who thinks the only things keeping AO from rising like a phoenix are bad graphics and lack of advertising.

he did raise some points of of worthwhile conjecture though, notable that we all suffered through cheesy mechanics. IMO if we've identified the mechanics are "cheesy" can't we target them for some kind of update? IE. rebalance incoming...

[aramsunat]

There's little point in arguing with someone who thinks the only things keeping AO from rising like a phoenix are bad graphics and lack of advertising.

From a business point of view: WoW is (was?) flying like a phoenix because it has (had?) a healthy influx vs outflux of players. Many people quit inevitably even if they love the game because of lifestyle changes etc. And every sane person would agree that flawless game mechanics have nothing to do with attracting new players especially that these flaws are only noticed by experienced players.

BTW rebalance will cause a much much MUCH larger whining than all the current issues combined. Due to the complexity of the game it is I-M-P-O-S-S-I-B-L-E to perfectly balance out things. Too many variables. Say fixers feel nerfed, they get love, MPs will cry, so MPs get love too but then traders will be nerfed and the cycle will go on forever. Some professions will always have an edge toward some other professions.

Aimed shot while being utterly stupid in principle is not game breaking, especially considering the current situation. The removal of AS from the toolset of the majority of the professions will create more imbalance as replacement tools will always be more effective against one profession, but less effective against another.

However, I wholeheartedly support (and always supported) the removal of /assist

[Kuegen]

SWTOR (at least as the OP said) is more based on level than anything else. Ive noticed the same in rift. In rift I could actually pvp as a noob and get several kills. I didnt need ubar gear. Frankly, these games are just easier to design. When you go with an easy design, balance is easy. AO is not the same, PvPing is dependant on how well you can twink, how much credits you can spend, and then some knowledge on other professions. AO is hard. Its not just hard to learn, its harder to design an implement. AO was born when MMOs were still relatively new, the easy model that games like rift and SWTOR adapted hadn't existed.

Now to speak out against silly things:

AO is a sandbox, you can do what you want. {removed} Rubi-Ka is a world like our own, and in our world, people work together, but some also go alone. What puts the multiplayer in MMO is MULTIple people PLAYing. By logging on to AO, you are contributing to the multiplayer aspect of it. Seriously, insinuating that soloing is wrong, or shouldn't be allowed, or should be frowned on, or viewed out against in any negative way is downright silly.

Another silly statement (although it seems more like a joke tbh), is the connotation that PvM is less important that PvP. The logic behind this is simply "I PvP, therefore all focus should go into PvP, and all opinions should be derived from people like me" Which, after some quick analysis, isnt logic at all PvM is less balanced than pvp tbh. Aside from the 4 god professions, shades, MAs, engis, fixers, and NTs are really the only people you would bother inviting off LFT. PvP is a numbers game really. 10 MPs can take down 2 enforcers. In PvP you will take as many people as you can get, as long as they only attack the enemy, they arent hindering you in anyway (although maybe they just wont make much of a difference). Needing sheer numbers means anyone can join. Are you an MP? Got AS? sure you can join pvp! What? you want to do pande? GTFO!

TL;DR : Balance in games like swtor and rift are ez mode. Dont tell people they cant solo in an MMO. Dont claim PvP is worse off than PvM without reason.

[Esssch]

MPs will cry, so MPs get love too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

[drainbamage]

From a business point of view: WoW is (was?) flying like a phoenix because it has (had?) a healthy influx vs outflux of players. Many people quit inevitably even if they love the game because of lifestyle changes etc. And every sane person would agree that flawless game mechanics have nothing to do with attracting new players especially that these flaws are only noticed by experienced players.

And why does WoW maintain an influx of new players to replace lost ones? Probably because, unlike FC, Blizzard is willing to keep trying new things (at least, without having to start another MMO every time they have a new idea).

[Lazy]

And why does WoW maintain an influx of new players to replace lost ones? .

because there's a lot of 12yearolds with more free time than grey matter.

[Kuegen]

And why does WoW maintain an influx of new players to replace lost ones? Probably because, unlike FC, Blizzard is willing to keep trying new things (at least, without having to start another MMO every time they have a new idea).

WoW has had drastic, risky changes such as removing levels altogether? I didnt know that.

[drainbamage]

WoW has had drastic, risky changes such as removing levels altogether? I didnt know that.

Like I said, without starting a new game. Creating a new game always allows for bigger changes than you could get away with in an established one. And honestly I don't really care about what FC is doing with TSW; I care about what they're doing with AO. Which at the moment doesn't seem to be a whole lot

[Kuegen]

Like I said, without starting a new game. Creating a new game always allows for bigger changes than you could get away with in an established one. And honestly I don't really care about what FC is doing with TSW; I care about what they're doing with AO. Which at the moment doesn't seem to be a whole lot

Oh I see, so you didn't mean that blizzard implements drastic and risky changes in their game, but rather that they don't implement them in anything at all. So what you should've said was "Blizzard is willing to keep trying new things (at least, things that don't change the game too much)."

Besides FC only has 3 real MMOs. You got the old sci-fi game, the bouncy boobs game, and the level-less game. Seems like a good trinity to me.

[drainbamage]

Oh I see, so you didn't mean that blizzard implements drastic and risky changes in their game, but rather that they don't implement them in anything at all. So what you should've said was "Blizzard is willing to keep trying new things (at least, things that don't change the game too much)."

Yeah, because upsetting the entire class/role paradigm didn't "change the game too much".
What risky and drastic changes has FC done with AO in the last five years?
edit: Not to mention that I never even mentioned the words "risky" or "drastic", that was just you putting words in my mouth.

[Kuegen]

Yeah, because upsetting the entire class/role paradigm didn't "change the game too much".
What risky and drastic changes has FC done with AO in the last five years?
edit: Not to mention that I never even mentioned the words "risky" or "drastic", that was just you putting words in my mouth.

Yes, but the words fit in your implications.

[Obtena]

Pretty funny to compare AO to SWTOR ... patch 1.2 has basically turned SWTOR PVP into Winning = who has the most instant attacks with the most damage. Healing, guarding, tactics, strategy .... apparently not necessary when you are targeting a mass market. You know, AO has it's problems but it also gets ALOT of stuff right.

It just goes to show that even with millions of dollars and years of development, the elusive path for PVP balance isn't as straight and narrow as most of you think it should be.

[SoapTarder]

However, people who love AO love it at least partly for its complexity

AO is complex in preparation, but not combat. In combat, it is not at all complex, pvm and pvp. the only complexity that you can derive from this game is soloing or duel-logged soloing, and even then the complexity comes down to your preparedness, not the actual fight itself. even in pvp the predictability of your opponent comes down to their experience. nabs are unpredictable and are taken down easily, while the experienced use the same damn combination of specials/perks/nanos every damn time with slight variations. theres no mechanics involved beyond that. hot-swapping for more than one capped hit? pulling it off is child's play in the complexity department, and again comes down to mostly preparation. strategy? assisting is not strategy, its a targeting mechanic. the rest is experience, plus finding the right combinations and using them effectively, or logitech macro keys.

sorry if it seems I'm targeting you Aram, I am not, just that I know for a fact that in the complexity department, AO is in the middle to low ground in the current MMO market. 10 years ago... different story.

Personally, I love AO because it is one of the most laid back (aside from Eve) MMO's on the market. I don't have to spam hot keys, do combo's, avoid getting trampled, worry about collisions, aim to hit targets etc..., instead I can sip on a coffee and relax while still playing to the max effectiveness. I can speak for at least a few others I know that would say the exact same thing.

to quote someone else here, Real pvp'ers don't play AO.

[Garremp]

I prefer to play solo.

And i hate you for that.

The OP is right with pointing out that in a multiplayer game 1 vs 1 balance is not the top priority. But with certain features (solo pvp score and title for example) FC opened the "what can you solo" contest in the battlestation and the low population did the same for the open pvp. With the attitude of some ppl that only search for top dd classes in inferno missions fixer population will soon reach 50% of the 220 characters.

What FC can do about that is very little. I highly doubt they would like to revoke the actual pvp title and vp reward system. The real thing that has to change is the attitude of the people. You rarely see someone defending a point in BS, most tower attacks are timed to be in the least active timezone and aiming for a team victory (aka 4 cap in BS) will grant you some bitching and whining.

FC did not kill AO, people did. The engine will change nothing in the heads of the people, AO will still be a dead game after that, just a bit more pretty. Optical changes wont bring back the old players that have left for gameplay reasons and helped to keep AO alive for so long and that engine that was already old when it was announced 3 years ago will not lure a hardcore "the game has to have top graphics to be worth playing" player into AO.

[MassDebater]

You reach too many assumptions.

I prefer to play solo when it doesn't matter. Like city pvp or BS. Towers and Tara of course I play mass pvp but ironically this is where rebalance will have the least effect. It's solo pvp that rebalance will have the biggest impact, wether the stated goal is team based balance.