Talking to ange isn't going to help your case.
Of course he wins, he wins everything.
So because he wins everything you somehow think that makes MA's hardcounter enfs? bullsh*t.
Any MA who says slowdown doesn't matter, is talking trash. Your arguments have huge gaping holes in them bro. Go pick another fight... one you understand more clearly.
I think the idea of the thread is a bit lost (it's too bad cause it's interesting). HARD counter to me is like a nemesis .. the profession you are scared of seeing 1 vs. 1. That kind of discussion is neat but doesn't seem relevant in AO for two reasons:
1. Player experience
2. Setup
As for MA vs. enfo, it's simply a timing and luck thing. Neither is a hard counter for the other.
Awwww muffin, need a tissue?
Thats a good point obtena. It's hard to say you're scared of seeing anyone in a combat situation.
On my MA I was particularly fearful of traders, because there is only one possible move to execute before it's a slow painful death: UWOS. and if it's down or you don't pop it immediately, you're dead. Crats, soldiers, engies, ranged advies, NT's, anyone with MR, as an MA, you basically are just running in fear of anyone the whole time and the only possibility is to attempt to damage them enough that they fear you long enough to swing the tide in your favour... which seemed to not happen all that often - course, it doesn't help on RK2 that all the Tl7's you're playing against have 150 evade and 150 AR advantage on you in ANY setup you try.
On my engi, I was wary of enforcers and scared to death of crats without pets.
On crat, I wasn't scared of anyone except real good MA's and enforcers
On advy I'm not scared of anyone.
On keeper I'm only afraid of soldiers and agents to some extent.
On enforcer I'm only scared of soldiers and some agents
I can say that as an enfo, I would just turn and run from soldiers. That is definitely what I would call a hard counter. Sure, there are ways to deal with a soldier as enfo but that's a profession match up that more often than not would not be in the interest of the whole PVP encounter for an enfo to waste their time on. Perfect example McK.
Awwww muffin, need a tissue?
Thats a bit odd, since you can still fear it and stun it to death..Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich
fears+stuns dont' produce kills... damage does - and only when it lands, for which the precursor is not being drained.
in a duel, UWOS, flower of life, red dusk+incapacitate, perk alpha will destroy a trader, but it doesn't work like that if he spots you from 40 m range.
No. Any two people with a brain is a hard counter to a doc.
Crats, while challenging are not a hard counter. Enfs are much harder to kill then crats.
No, you got this a bit wrong.
You think your constantly losing against enforcers makes them a hardcounter against MA's.
You seem to think that enforcers have no difficulty debuffing or simply perking an MA at will and that this guaranteeds death.
I think enforcers not actually having the AR to perk an MA without LE procs, slowdown, or MR puts MA's at an advantage.
I think being able to post setups that prove this supports that MA's have an advantage.
I think good MA's not actually dieing unless you perk them is an advantage.
I think MA's having tools to counter LE procs, slowdown, and MR, also known as the only ways to perk a good MA with an enforcer, is an advantage.
I think having LE procs fire against an evade profession being unlikely, slowdown being incredibly difficult to land, and MR being a breed and not profession tool is an advantage.
I think actually testing these things and not just making claims out of my ass helps prove MA's have the advantage.
I think MA's having far too much damage for enforcers to survive indefinately is an advantage.
I think MA's being difficult to alpha and enforcers relying entirely on alphas is an advantage.
My arguments are:
Testimony from top MA pvpers.
Videos of and actually witnessing duels by angevil (solairtist), odyceus, and tifs.
My personal experience on my MA.
Actual testing the use of slowdown against a PVP setup MA, using a trial consisting of about 150 casts. My personal experience casting slowdown in actual PVP situations.
My personal experience resisting slowdown, and not actually ever having it land on my MA in PVP.
Posting actual setups with actual stats from auno, calculated using skill emulators.
What I am lacking is duel experience on my MA, as I only did BS, tower wars, and borealis PVP. One could argue that enforcers are so rare that without having dueled them I might not have actually pvp'd more than one or two after about half a year. One could also argue that a standing duel against an enforcer using DB essence and mongo rage is the only true way to validity a profession's capabilities.
Also, having switched to tonfa and using a PVE setup I slipped up and mentioned triple-wielding for PVP. This is mostly due to pvping while in a PVE setup, and still killing enforcers. I could post a "perfect" MA setup for PVP as well but I chose to prove the point with the setup I was actually using, and still killing enforcers.
Your arguments are:
False stats for enforcers with perks and abilities no enforcer would be using at 220.
Slowdown always lands, despite not having a 220 enforcer nor actually testing the land rate itself.
Your personal experiences of constantly losing
Your claim that testimony from other MA's is invalid
Your apparent assertion that only your experience is necessary to determine the validity of a claim
Your claim thatYour claim that MA defensive values do not matter while also claiming that an enforcer perking an MA is fatal.
Your claim that enforcer defensive values do matter and therefore MA's cannot swap in gear to actually win a duel because they apparently cannot achieve 2500 or more attack rating if they swap out a few pieces of CC for substantial gains in defense.
Honestly I never heard of anyone trying to make a generalization that applies to all situations based on their own failure alone. You could at least stick to generalizations based on success.
Last edited by Gatester; Sep 7th, 2012 at 23:43:45.
Don't have to be scared of a profession to mean they can kill you. Hard Counter to advy = Engi/agent/doc. Agent/doc at least 90% of the time if they are real pvpers. I have seen you post about 3-4 "nerf troll pistols pls so op, and advy is so op" Not sure if your just trolling because you want to see advy nerfed OR you may have the most op advy in the game.
Gatester just think about what you're saying. All of those reasons why you're aying my argument don't hold up are false.
For example, I never said slowdown "always" lands. Don't be a tard. I said: Enforcers have the BEST staying power in game, THUS they can survive UNTIL it lands.
Anyway, I'm not interested in your diatribe. The best enforcers will regularly beat the best MA's, if they don't f*ck up their alpha. Period.
moderately skilled enforcers with MR will WTFpwn moderately skilled MA's. and those without MR will be a close fight.
poorly skilled/poorly geared enforcers will probably have a 50/50 chance against poorly skilled and poorly equipped MA's.
I think the easier thing to say then is that MA's and enforcers are not hard counters to each other. This is what makes your thread rather difficult to support, as was mentioned, player experiences and skill will not be the same for every player. Unless players can universally agree with each other that something is always true, then its not going to be accepted.
In your case, you cannot even accept successful MA's claiming the opposite of you.
If an enforcer can always survive until it lands, then how is that different from saying slowdown always lands?
This cannot be true given my experience with both a 220 enforcer and 220 MA. Even if you try to claim my skill at PVP is the issue for me I still have my MA's experience to completely counter that.
As far as the BEST staying power in game, that is an incredibly difficult argument to support. Escape power is best certainly, but you are saying that an enforcer can stand and fight any profession longer than:
Adventurers
Doctors
Engineers
Fixers
Keepers
MAs
MP's with Zset shields
Shades
Soldiers
Are you honestly willing to claim such a thing? I think you are backing yourself into a nasty corner with all these comments about what enforcers are supposedly able to do without even having one yourself.
Enfo > Doc
Enfo > Keeper
Enfo > Fixer
Enfo > Agent
Enfo > Crat
Enfo = Engineer
Enfo = MA
Enfo = MP
Enfo = Trader
Enfo < Adv
Enfo < Shade
Enfo <<<<< Soldier
Last edited by Coolerd; Sep 10th, 2012 at 01:02:02.
Absolutely. (I have a fully equipped enforcer with 1he/1hb, however it's in CM not CC, alphas in all slots - mainly for PVM)
I agree enf doesn't have the best staying power, but imo its only exceeded by docs and advies.
Staying power is the ability to survive while under attack. Enforcers, by definition and build are capable of soaking up huge amounts of damage, while cycling perks, keeping mongo hots running, having superior natural healing, and even setting up for evades.
Advys have arguably the best staying power in game
docs have great staying power
soldiers have excellent staying power for 1:20, then anyone with half a brain will pox em.
engies have OK staying power if they are in a HP setup, but, even then it's mediocre at best
Zset MP's drop like a rock as soon as you kill their heal pet x2
MA's are wtf gimp as soon as ES is over and ring is in recharge
shades... really? if a shade can perk it's target, ya. but if not, they aren't exactly strong defensively
keepers - mmm na. mediocre at best. Too many holes in defences, no nano healing, no nano defences - hence, no short cycling heal/defence
But, the point of staying power isn't that enforcer have the best, it's that enforcers have enough staying power to last until slowdown lands and then they can destroy their target.
90% of PVP in AO is about waiting for the appropriate time to strike, and, using the approriate defences when you're under attack. how hard can it be on enforcer that you can't deal with this simple concept?
Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Sep 13th, 2012 at 00:38:02. Reason: ** TMS length am on crack soz
ams lasts for 1.20s
The fact that MA's actually have tools to counter slowdown and LE procs while enforcers have nothing to counter the fact that MA's 3.5-4k crits and 4-13k AS's eventually kill you? Staying power against an MA outside of a duel is also about 30-60 seconds. In a duel an enforcer should last between 60-120 seconds. An enforcer always has the opportunity to kill an MA, but for the enforcer it relies either entirely on luck or for the MA to be in a setup weak against the enforcer (unless MR is used, but I would prefer it if MR was not considered an "enforcer" perk). An MA does not need luck to kill an enforcer, an MA's damage is enough to kill them everytime.
Problem with MA's is they have 12k or less max health a lot of the time rather than 17-23k max health to survive alphas and unlikely chains of damage. If you are dueling an enforcer it is best to have about 17k+ max health and 3650 or more evade close with limber running. You can win with less, but you are allowing yourself a disadvantage. I do understand that some MA's purposefully lowered their health, but this was a choice and is not a necessity for MA's.
Anyone can get unlucky, but you can take steps to prevent that. No one is perfect either, and if you fail to use a defensive perk or stun at the right time you can die too.
I have beaten MA's with my enforcer btw, I simply do not consider "getting lucky" to be a quantifiable factor in PVP. Most of the MA's that have lost to my enforcer all followed the same two trends, they were either low on health or they were low on evades. I can tell because I either alpha them with little damage or I alpha them with lower AR than I should have been able to.
Those MA's could have survived if they were setup differently, and if they survived I would have died.
you're making MA's out to be like advies.
which they are not.
normals kill MA's, normals don't kill advies.
normals kill fixers, normals don't kill doctors.
On my Advy, I can outheal normal damage+specials until the sun comes up.
On an MA, you can outheal normal damage+specials until ES is out, ring is out, harmony is out.. then it's just a matter of time because MA heals won't suffice to keep you alive vs regular hitting normals+specials (add SA, and we will go down very quickly).
And, yes, the alternate is true as well, normals on a MA will WTF pwn an enforcer given enough time too.
The combat system in AO is based around profs who are survivors, and profs who are killers.
You're making MA's out to be survivors, BUT THEY ARE NOT. MA's are killers. As are enforcers.
But, when you pit enforcers vs MA's, enforcers have more tools at their disposal to dispatch the MA than the MA has.
WTF are you talking about btw with MA's have "counters to LE procs" ???????? I've never seen it.
And btw, MA's in defensive setup often don't have the AR to perk enforcers, meaning as soon as MM is out, they're sitting there swinging at air, and important stuns/init debuffs aren't landing.
You 2 should actually log IN GAME and PvP. Forum is like ... meh. Or better yet, pvp some enfs ma`s fixers docs so on, but for the love of god, play the damn game and stop the forum pvp where NOTHING counts. ( imo )
This sounds correct to me. MA should be outhealing normal damage in a duel until about 90 seconds have passed, then they tend to begin slowly dieing. Slowdown is a problem of course, but only when it actually lands.
That and most MA's are simply not setup to fight enforcers, ever. 12k health or less is not a good amount.
Sounds about right, but I did not mean to insinuate that MA's are survivors who fight indefinately, they merely have a toolset to counter perk based alphas perfectly if used perfectly and have too much damage for an enforcer to survive for very long.
Enforcers have more offensive tools yes, but those are also necessary to kill the MA. An MA requires no tools to kill the enforcer, just regular hits and AS or AS+SA. MA's have defensive tools to survive though, which balance out the offensive tools.
The problem is it is FAR easier to use an offensive tool than to properly time a defensive tool to counter the attacker. This is also the problem with your thread, you can only claim a hard counter based on best case/no mistakes PVP, which is unrealistic to begin with (a player sneezing or missing a perk chance is not something you can calculate). Some professions have it easier, but in the case of MA's the toolset is entirely skill dependant.
This is part of why Angevil/Solairtist has such a high win rate, his timing is top notch. Same with many other MA's. The other part is that he has about 3 bags of gear he can swap for every duel.
Real PVP:
Enforcer = MA but enforcer has a bit of an advantage
A perfect PVP encounter:
Enforcer < MA
Blind ring and inner balance should give you enough time until DoF is available. If DoF is up you are still unperkable.
Swap on a combat util so you can perk the enforcer if you need to, enforcers are doing this you know. You can have 2.7k or more AR in a defensive setup as well, so you should only have problems with blind rings or highway. Highway means no MR though, as an enforcer will not have 40 AI perks for both.
2.7k+ AR and 3650 evade close def with limber is possible.
That said, this setup is useless against anything but enforcers, doctors, engineers, and soldiers. That is another problem I have with this thread lol. The most commonly encountered setups are not the ones best suited for the fights and throw off your reasoning.
Accounts are frozen
I dueled a fixer last night with 2 shen sticks on, approximately 2800 AR, and beat him without a swap.
MA's.... are weird. sometimes you can out-psych people just using really basic stuff that they don't usually encounter. like, the two main active MA's are heroo0 and tushu, and ange comes out sometimes. all three are srs hotswappers. and, whats funny as HELL, is that if you expect a MA to play likea bat out of hell offensive alpha-er, and they play a slow "wear you down" type of fight...most people can not figure out how to beat them.
Since I've gone to duel shens, instead of trying to hotswap a nd all that, my duel record has gone from about 400 wins to 480 losses, to about 30 wins and about 4 losses.
Obviously the sample size has something to do about it... but, MA's we're very versatile, and I certainly can't argue that.
This should not happen, and it is because of this that these discussions turn into troll wars lol. It is hard to detach theory and speculation from what actually occurs.
I was going to go 2he and AS swap on my enforcer again for the simple fact that people have not fought against it in years, but I deleted my Pride of the Xan in protest years ago.
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