The Rihwen and Carlo will no longer be nodrop.

[MassDebater]

I'm sure that reasoning will go down well when you tell the engineers who aren't 220, don't pvp or don't have perfect equip.

[Marinegent]

MPs are trash. Engis are overpowered.

as if it wasn't /thread enough already, here it is again.

[MassDebater]

as if it wasn't /thread enough already, here it is again.

If we go by the reasoning that engineers must be painful to play because they are decent at one title level of pvp, where does that leave traders and enfs?

I'm thinking an alternating 60hz flash of pure red and neon green for traders and for enforcers we should add http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gPuH1yeZ08 on infinite repeat at max volume.

Will we start mailing bricks of cocaine to keepers now?


I'm not that suprised at the childish responses so far from the usual suspects.

[Metafizis]

I'm thinking an alternating 60hz flash of pure red and neon green for traders and for enforcers we should add http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gPuH1yeZ08 on infinite repeat at max volume.

This one better!

[Psikie]

Enf doesn't. Crat Doesn't. Doc doesn't. That's off the top of my head and that also discounts the many people who are NR1 and 2 at tl7. Something unthinkable for engineer.

Uhm do you have a tl7 enfo/doc? Because you might want to check to how many enfo's other than NM actually "CAN" combat cast nanos self buffed without swaps. Same with trox docs who use top 3 dots, top TEAM health buffs, and top TEAM doc HoTs.

I understand that it bothers you that your MP that you don't play on (and when you play on it, you don't pvp) is bad at pvp. But you have plenty of outlets to express your frustration elsewhere.

Ill answer this one for Esch... I am available to test your engi vs my MP on live tonight if you like.

Unfortunately engineer doesn't recieve 120 AS from research meaning we need to sacrifice nanoskills for AS.

Ah the TRUTH is revealed you want a non standard engi setup AND be able to use all standard engi toolset with no swaps! Yea AS is non Engi standard since you dont have any support for it.

What a joke.

[Esssch]

Unfortunately engineer doesn't recieve 120 AS from research meaning we need to sacrifice nanoskills for AS.

But I am happy for you to brag that a class that needs 2109 MC/TS to cast pets gets 250~ less MC/TS and no access to nano doctorate than a class that needed 2050~.

So what you're saying is that you do just want the game dumbed down to your level. Glad we got that out of the way so that anyone else viewing this can start laughing at you like the rest of us already have been for years.

[Metafizis]

IBF Ananrina: Do not mock the best PvP engi.

[srompu]

Is there any good reason for keeping Carlo and Rihwen nodrop? If not, maybe make a new thread to complain about Engi nano reqs.

Off-topic in your own thread:

I'm sure that reasoning will go down well when you tell the engineers who aren't 220, don't pvp or don't have perfect equip.

I can see why you'd be upset having to meet high nanoskill reqs. Isotos reqs are too high and it's annoying as hell. It's not even that much better. However,

1) Yours is a full-on damage/AR artillery setup, right down to the CC, leo memory, and sniper's friend. Even so, if you put in eye/rhand symbs and perked mechanic, you could still do widow as an ai10 trox, with one alb hud swap to cast APF dog and iSOTOS. It's hard to feel bad for an overpowered profession using an artillery setup, custom AS implants, and still keeping their pets viable, not to mention perking stuff like eDNA 10.

2) Since APF dog isn't a combat-cast nano like imongo or BI, it seems reasonable that you might swap some gear to get it up. You've got it much easier than Agents, Keepers, Shades, and MAs for getting your top stuff up, although it's sometimes more viable for us to use something lower.

3) You could probably use regular sotos if it helped you sleep.

4) Sub-220s don't get widowmaker, and they sure shouldn't complain about APF dog.

5) Non-pvpers don't want AS.

6) When you complain about MPs getting non-pvp-related love, it's like complaining about an orphan being given an ice-cream cone.

If we go by the reasoning that engineers must be painful to play because they are decent at one title level of pvp, where does that leave traders and enfs?

Based on widow, carlo, biodome, isotos, what title level of engineer are you talking about?

Edit: I'm an Agent and therefore biased. Screw Engis.

[Aiken]

I'm sure he can get the 2147 nanoskills to cast and buff his pets. His point is that it's a huge hassle to swap a ton of stuff to do it all the time___because you *choose* to use a different setup instead of a nanoskill one___. Dumbed down and less tedious don't mean the same thing to me.

Just added the bit of missing text everyone seems to forget when this discussion pops up....

[MassDebater]

Uhm do you have a tl7 enfo/doc? Because you might want to check to how many enfo's other than NM actually "CAN" combat cast nanos self buffed without swaps. Same with trox docs who use top 3 dots, top TEAM health buffs, and top TEAM doc HoTs.

Enfo's swap items to cast rage/imongo?, I honestly didn't know that.

Same with docs and top 3 dots, ilc and even more surprising, a nano that takes 811 time space.

Ah the TRUTH is revealed you want a non standard engi setup AND be able to use all standard engi toolset with no swaps! Yea AS is non Engi standard since you dont have any support for it.

What a joke.

Again it comes down to a profession must be bad in pvp to receive convenience changes? Must I be the only Pistol proffesion that doesn't use AS to be able to cast all my nanos without a hassle?

Is there any good reason for keeping Carlo and Rihwen nodrop? If not, maybe make a new thread to complain about Engi nano reqs.

I never said there was. As for a new thread, this is it. What do you expect?

Off-topic in your own thread:

I can see why you'd be upset having to meet high nanoskill reqs. Isotos reqs are too high and it's annoying as hell. It's not even that much better. However,

1) Yours is a full-on damage/AR artillery setup, right down to the CC, leo memory, and sniper's friend. Even so, if you put in eye/rhand symbs and perked mechanic, you could still do widow as an ai10 trox, with one alb hud swap to cast APF dog and iSOTOS. It's hard to feel bad for an overpowered profession using an artillery setup, custom AS implants, and still keeping their pets viable, not to mention perking stuff like eDNA 10.

As you said, making it easier for engineers to cast and buff pets won't make any difference to their pvp power, since I am already in a full combat setup.

I'm interested why a full on casting prof like MP or Crat can go full artillery (MP's get 2500 MC/TS if you follow the thread, and crats can go full cc/ofab), while an artillery prof can also go full artillery, but a mix of the two, engineer can't.

Although personally I wouldn't call it an artillery setup because....We can't use Artillery Symbs (You know the ones with AS and nanoskills?), I'm also using DB hud for nanoskills, kergerns for nanoskills (as well as because I can swap it with no AT3 perk to db chest, beast helm, because I need the nanoskills so frequently, and I can't sacrfice 3 perks for AT3 like some other classes), ofab ring for nanoskills, CONC10 for nanoskills and collatz back for nanoskills.

As for eDNA10, it doesn't add to nanoskills? You think I used it for the DOT remover?

2) Since APF dog isn't a combat-cast nano like imongo or BI, it seems reasonable that you might swap some gear to get it up. You've got it much easier than Agents, Keepers, Shades, and MAs for getting your top stuff up, although it's sometimes more viable for us to use something lower.

Yeah I've never had to cast dog in the middle of the fight, bs round, towers, tara...what an unfair request to not have to stand still clicking items while everyone else is running around pew-pewing.

If we follow your logic, why is Carlo 1400 MC/TS and Rihwen 2050?

3) You could probably use regular sotos if it helped you sleep.

I already have one nano that lasts 34 seconds and that is bad enough. So no I doubt it will help me sleep.

4) Sub-220s don't get widowmaker, and they sure shouldn't complain about APF dog.

No but they can complain about having a slayer that takes 874 MC/TS the same as MP's. But miss out on mochams and odins. But at least those pets only last 30m2 hours...mmm

6) When you complain about MPs getting non-pvp-related love, it's like complaining about an orphan being given an ice-cream cone.

And yet you complain about engineers getting non-pvp-related love.

Again it comes back to being bitter and angry at one person/profession at one title level of pvp.

No one of course brings up crat because being good at pvp and being the number one pvm profession doesn't fit your tired narrative of "omg rdord doesn't want to spend all his time swapping, casting and buffing pets, better whine because I died to an engineer on battlestation"

So you seem clearly of the view that because engineer is good at one title level of pvp (7) we cannot recieve any changes that would make playing engineer more enjoyable.

Agent is good at titles 1-7. Why does this thread exist? http://forums.anarchyonline.com/showthread.php?t=604860

Just added the bit of missing text everyone seems to forget when this discussion pops up....

If I used Rhand symb like you I would still have to swap to cast. If I used as little nanobuffing gear as you did, I would be even worse off.

[Esssch]

I'm interested why a full on casting prof like MP or Crat can go full artillery (MP's get 2500 MC/TS if you follow the thread, and crats can go full cc/ofab), while an artillery prof can also go full artillery, but a mix of the two, engineer can't.

Although personally I wouldn't call it an artillery setup because....We can't use Artillery Symbs (You know the ones with AS and nanoskills?), I'm also using DB hud for nanoskills, kergerns for nanoskills (as well as because I can swap it with no AT3 perk to db chest, beast helm, because I need the nanoskills so frequently, and I can't sacrfice 3 perks for AT3 like some other classes), ofab ring for nanoskills, CONC10 for nanoskills and collatz back for nanoskills.

lolololol. You're so bad at this game, it's astonishing. I hit 2500 MC/TS...with Odin's and Mochams, expertise, CoNC 10, Channel Rage, Starfall, and (here's the really important bits), wearing symbs instead of AS imps, and Combined Scouts. Not Commando's like you're wearing. Scouts. Which means another 150 MC/TS.

This just in: That 2500 MC/TS isn't going to be while using CC and AS imps. You gave up nanoskills to be more proficient in PvP. That's fine, but don't act like a spoiled brat because you think making sacrifices should apply to everyone except yourself.

This thread is done. You've made an embarrassment out of yourself and the engineer profession as a whole. Go brainstorm for your next attempt.

[MassDebater]

lolololol. You're so bad at this game, it's astonishing. I hit 2500 MC/TS...with Odin's and Mochams, expertise, CoNC 10, Channel Rage, Starfall, and (here's the really important bits), wearing symbs instead of AS imps, and Combined Scouts. Not Commando's like you're wearing. Scouts. Which means another 150 MC/TS.

This just in: That 2500 MC/TS isn't going to be while using CC and AS imps. You gave up nanoskills to be more proficient in PvP. That's fine, but don't act like a spoiled brat because you think making sacrifices should apply to everyone except yourself.

This thread is done. You've made an embarrassment out of yourself and the engineer profession as a whole. Go brainstorm for your next attempt.

Do MP's not gain a benefit of higher nanoskills in combat?

Do you think I don't know that removing nanoskill buffing items is going to lower your nanoskills? It's still going to be higher than engineer, and high enough to self pets. Try to keep up with the conversation.

Why do you think I called them full on casting professions? Do crats also not gain a benefit of higher nanoskills?

[srompu]

I rearranged the quotes by subject. They're quoted so I can explain what I was saying, but the core message is in yellow at the bottom.
Edit: Removed a bunch because bleeding eyes.

I never said there was. As for a new thread, this is it. What do you expect?

Taking nodrop tags off their pets has nothing to do with anything. It's not even like they're being given your toolset. If they dropped your nano reqs and added them to BD loot, you'd be righteously pissed because they're unrelated.

So you seem clearly of the view that because engineer is good at one title level of pvp (7) we cannot recieve any changes that would make playing engineer more enjoyable.

Of course not. I said "Isotos reqs are too high and it's annoying as hell."

Although personally I wouldn't call it an artillery setup because....We can't use Artillery Symbs (You know the ones with AS and nanoskills?), I'm also using DB hud for nanoskills, kergerns for nanoskills (as well as because I can swap it with no AT3 perk to db chest, beast helm, because I need the nanoskills so frequently, and I can't sacrfice 3 perks for AT3 like some other classes), ofab ring for nanoskills, CONC10 for nanoskills and collatz back for nanoskills.

All of them, with minor exceptions, are used for weapon AR/damage as well, but it's not what I'm getting at.
The point is you make many sacrifices for weapons but almost none for nanoskills, and it's hard to know how what weapon stats you need to be viable. On the face of it, it looks like you chose weapon damage over pet damage.

Yeah I've never had to cast dog in the middle of the fight, bs round, towers, tara...what an unfair request to not have to stand still clicking items while everyone else is running around pew-pewing.

The context here is doc casting iCH or enfo casting iMango. You're somewhat less likely to recast your dog mid-fight. It's not a deal-breaker of the same scale.

I already have one nano that lasts 34 seconds and that is bad enough. So no I doubt it will help me sleep.

Yes, the duration is retarded.

Agent is good at titles 1-7. Why does this thread exist? http://forums.anarchyonline.com/showthread.php?t=604860

Read it. First entry is "We do poor damage, even when compared to support professions."
The wishlist exists parly because TL7 Agents are sub-par in both PvM and PvP, and partly because our profession is full of stupid things that should have been fixed 7 years ago. This nano req stuff should be in the Engi wishlist, and should have been clubbed to death by the Engi community.
I've cheesed enough Engis with EP that I'm not remotely bitter. I see how incredibly hard they are to take down, and how much damage they dish out.

Throughout the thread, there are two arguments that seem to underlie things, probably not on purpose:
1) MPs and Crats should be crapped on because their pets are now yesdrop.
2) Engis are nerfed in PvP, and deserve love/AS/creds/nanoskills.
Neither of these are true, and this is why the thread is where it is.
If you use
3) APF dog and isotos reqs are too fukin' high and nanoskill setups aren't viable.
you can make a good case. Figuring out how much nanoskill is balanced in the setup will probably be the tricky part.

[Sateenkaari]

just swap widowmaker to bd loot and doggie still as apf nano, get the cred sink of making pets off, and dont touch on anything else, that would cause a bd farming to the max since there then would be 4 profs in need of it (eng crat mp nt), and, tbh, in pvp, eng pet hp is way too low, as in, you cant really selfcast those in any even halfway wise setup, except, with swapping, and whats more fun than making pets during combat... or, the other solution is, make engi shells faster to cast (like 15s or something, and no, I don't forget to have spare shells in inv for the situations in combat where the pets are getting killed, but after they've been killed twice or more, you actually need to remake them). OP forgot to mention that the MP pets are now insta cast (or atleast most of them) and Carlo/Carlita is instacast, and CEO is faster to cast than engie pets

[MassDebater]

Taking nodrop tags off their pets has nothing to do with anything. It's not even like they're being given your toolset. If they dropped your nano reqs and added them to BD loot, you'd be righteously pissed because they're unrelated.

What actually happened was they added out pets to APF and increased the requirements. I would welcome Widowmaker taking 1400 MC/TS and dropping at biodome.

The context here is doc casting iCH or enfo casting iMango. You're somewhat less likely to recast your dog mid-fight. It's not a deal-breaker of the same scale.

Losing 1/4 of your damage, half your CC ability, and your only init debuff with the only way to get it back is to hide, stand still and then swap a bunch gear of that drops your HP below the point you can survive a shade or enf stun gank, is "not much of a dealbreaker".

Throughout the thread, there are two arguments that seem to underlie things, probably not on purpose:
1) MPs and Crats should be crapped on because their pets are now yesdrop.
2) Engis are nerfed in PvP, and deserve love/AS/creds/nanoskills.
Neither of these are true, and this is why the thread is where it is.
If you use
3) APF dog and isotos reqs are too fukin' high and nanoskill setups aren't viable.
you can make a good case. Figuring out how much nanoskill is balanced in the setup will probably be the tricky part.

If as MP's have 2500 nanoskills are bragging in this thread, increasing MP requirements wouldn't affect anything as they are already 400 points above them. Crats have 650 less requirements but 260~ less from buffs and likewise this change wouldn't effect them.
It is hard to accept that this isn't what MP's want since when their pets got increased from 30 minutes to 2hours they couldn't stop telling us how engineers need higher requirements because they are permanent.

Then when they became permanent they couldn't stop telling us how engineer pets are buyable from a storefront and so we need higher requirements.

the day our pets last forever, like yours, is the day your reqs will be lowered.

i like this idea. they want lower reqs like the others, then put a timer on their pets like ours. maybe set it to 30min for the first 6 months. just so they really do understand how that was like.

I havn't said anything yet....shesh.

And yes, engi's can have lower reqs if all other pet classes get infinite pets and mp gets a new healpet for 220 ..k?

If MP and Crat pets were made permanent I'd totally see an argument in favour of Engineers having a much easier life with their pets.

I don't see anyone seriously saying engineer is not effective in pvp. All I see is a lot of clanners whining about it when someone asks for a small change that would make playing engineer easier. Crat is good at pvm and pvp and yet no one is rallying to stop their pets being yesdrop from Biodome to limit their power.

[wonderland]

Throughout the thread, there are two arguments that seem to underlie things, probably not on purpose:
1) MPs and Crats should be crapped on because their pets are now yesdrop.
2) Engis are nerfed in PvP, and deserve love/AS/creds/nanoskills.
Neither of these are true, and this is why the thread is where it is.
If you use
3) APF dog and isotos reqs are too fukin' high and nanoskill setups aren't viable.
you can make a good case. Figuring out how much nanoskill is balanced in the setup will probably be the tricky part.

It sounded more to me like he was saying "If we're going to give this out-of-combat benefit for bureaucrats and metaphysicist, why don't we give engineers some of that also? I mean, it shouldn't really affect too many things in regards to balance because it's out of combat."

I mean, rather than seeing engineers not need to swap, I'd like to see bureaucrats and metaphysicists swapping, honestly.

and maybe getting metaphysicists a whole new set of pets from xan zones.

[Belph]

Not quite sure how making a pet yesdrop will increase a crats power but each to their own

[Zwelgje]

Don' t care if it's nodrop or yesdrop. All nanoskill requirments are just to low at endgame lvl. Nothing has changed to those req and more equip has gotten into play. Bump all endgame pets to atleast 2.2k nano skills.

To make pets "equal" as there owners, have there AR altered to the casters Nanoskill +aao + a base (lvl of the the pet *4) so a lvl 220 pet has atleast 2.2k +880= 3k+ AR (this is minus the aao part). Same sort calc's for def, HP etc.
The fun part would be that a lvl 1 pet is also usfull to some degree. Give specific lvl ranges a unique proc and presto. You've got some nice new pets

[MassDebater]

Not quite sure how making a pet yesdrop will increase a crats power but each to their own

Neither, can you quote who said that?

Don' t care if it's nodrop or yesdrop. All nanoskill requirments are just to low at endgame lvl. Nothing has changed to those req and more equip has gotten into play.

I support your suggestion of 2k bm/mm cast requirements on Advy heals but this is quite off topic.

[Belph]

Crat is good at pvm and pvp and yet no one is rallying to stop their pets being yesdrop from Biodome to limit their power.

This?