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Thread: Mongo Rage

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Lordaegis View Post
    FC gave troxs MR cause atrox is hardest breed to play with and without MR no one will play atrox again

    if they will balance all breeds then they might do some changes to mongo rage

    but you cant really remove or nerf mongo rage and leave nano mage with 5k cocoon and high reflect perk
    but they can reduce mongo rage to 500-1000 aao insted of 1500. i would be happy with 1000 aao insted of 1500 its a big diffrence, but still with 1k aao u perk the hell out of most. but it wont upp 100% evade professions becose they got low hp and no absorb or what so ever to resist a 100% perk alpha from mongo rage
    Last edited by Anarrina; Jul 20th, 2013 at 15:53:17.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    1.please elaborate how it is 'in general' enough to alpha 16k plus hp trough rrfe. that is just a myth.
    I'm including specials like FA, brawl, fling, burst, and full auto which can land more easily due to Mongo Rage. I am not including SA or AS critting more often. I am including 4x AI perks for damage and a weapon perkline.

    In general, therefore, should apply to any profession other than NTs (unecessary), MPs, traders (unecessary), and Doctors (only because I believe doctors and MP's lack the AR to reasonable perk players even with MR but there may be offensive based setups which are viable).


    I did not include anything other than RRFE being in effect in that comment, but it should be easy to verify whether the professions I excluded can deal 16k worth of damage to a player using what I described.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    2.ah. a nonevadable 'moderate to high' hit every 11s for support profs is not op? especially in your favorable secenario of a prolonged fight? that's just ridiculous. sorry. that's beyond reasoning.
    Equip an AS pistol and nothing else. Do not use damaging perks or stuns or anything that does not boost your AS damage. Now, kill someone with that AS pistol. I think you have an issue with AS pistol = a professions entire offensive toolset, otherwise AS pistol on its own is nothing compared to Mongo Rage.

    Mongo Rage is a booster, it amplifies the majority of a player's offensive toolset. Aimed Shot is 1 hit every 11 seconds (in some cases), nothing more, and there is no profession at 220 which can die to Aimed Shot damage alone.

    Another way to look at it is like this, if you removed the AS pistol what would players do as an alternative? They would use a onehander and function in a similar manner. If you removed Mongo Rage (although this is not the actual suggestion) what would players do as an alternative? They would be forced to use offensive setups to kill players. I think the one which appears most balanced and has the greatest impact is apparent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    3.prolonged fights? as mentioned before, we are already in a state where some fights are just so futile, that people rather not bother. how is that good? people should be killable in a reasonable amount of time. well. but if that is your vision for pvp, you really must hate nts.
    '
    People are killable without MR, the problem is people using defensive setups and relying on MR to kill others. A "defensive" setup not being able to kill an evade profession is not a justification for something that allows defensive setups to kill evaders. In an offensive setup on my shade I have killed every profession, it is solitus. Better shades do it even more easily. What better argument do I need other than people need to stop expecting to kill players when they only care about their own survival?

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post

    Another way to look at it is like this, if you removed the AS pistol what would players do as an alternative? They would use a onehander and function in a similar manner. If you removed Mongo Rage (although this is not the actual suggestion) what would players do as an alternative? They would be forced to use offensive setups to kill players. I think the one which appears most balanced and has the greatest impact is apparent.
    i'd like to take a moment and quote josephina, who wrote a lovely post about craphanders in the fixer forums eons ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina View Post

    5.7 Why the onehander is nicknamed the craphander
    Aimed shot damage is determined by a base damage number and the AS multiplier: base_damage*AS_multiplier

    Calculation base damage for onehander, http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=144062
    MBS: 1233
    Max damage: 121 (AS only uses the max damage number)
    Crit damage: 121+584

    You use normal damage calculation on this:
    In case of no crit: 1+(1000+1/3*233)/400*121 + "projectile_damage_modifier" = 447 + "projectile_damage_modifier"
    In case of a crit: 1+(1000+1/3*233)/400*(121+584) + "projectile_damage_modifier" = 2604 + "projectile_damage_modifier"

    In pvp this damage is halved, hence /2.

    But there is a problem with crits in pvp: crit chance is halved before crit reduction is applied. If you have 20% crit chance, and your target has -10% crit reduction (albtraum and some other items made this easy to obtain), then your chance to crit is 20%/2 - 10% = 0%. Because of this you can pretty much assume that you will not crit in pvp anymore.

    Calculation of AS_multiplier:
    Each time you AS the base_damage is multiplied by a multiplier. This multiplier is a random natural number between the lowest possible multiplier (formula unknown to me) and the highest possible multiplier (CEILING("AS_skill" /95)). [ceiling = rounded up to the nearest natural number]
    This roll is not 100% random but weighted with a higher chance to roll one of the lower multipliers: see http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=445153

    So if you have 1900 AS skill, your highest possible AS_multiplier will be 20, your lowest 3?. The median of your mutlipliers will be 5?.

    Median_aimed_shot-damage = (447 + "projectile_damage_modifier") /2 * 5
    Roughly 50% of your ASs will do less damage than this, 50% more.

    If a fixer has +400 damage: The median of his AS will be 2117, against someone with rrfe this becomes 1482 damage: utter crap at TL7. And that's why the onehander is called the craphander.

    the glaring issues with craphander (rubbish non-crit as, rubbish range) was addressed when they added troll pistol at the cost of not being able to use FA. since Pistol Mastery profs didn't use FA to begin with (with the noteable exception of ranged advs) the result was median AS damage went up and pistol users enjoyed a reliable 30% capping special with no def check with pretty much no drawbacks. prior to troll pistol whjat options did support profs have to get a stable AS? ofab shovel and prayer? i wouldn't mind in the slightest if profs kept a stable 30% as. it's not the AS that's the issue. it's the 3 medium-high dmg pistol perks (4 if you count deadeye hitting twice) with an 80% def check that they got after switching to a pistol-based weapon, a burst that lands uncomfortably often, and for the most part, about 200 more ai perk ar thanks to the PM line

    so in short the issue with the trololol pistol isn't so much that it enables a stable 30% AS. the issue with the trololol pistol is that it adds a 30% as to an already strong core toolset. (and is being used as such by soldiers and fixers with a rhat in offhand for SMG perks to make up for the loss of FA)

    if AS pistol were removed i think we'd see a much larger metagame shift than just everyone suddenly slapping on a craphander.
    Last edited by Lazy; Jul 21st, 2013 at 14:41:09.

  4. #64
    You are correct lazy, players would shift to other AS weapons instead of just the onehander. If I were to redefine my statement it is that players would seek alternatives which are available. In the cases of engineer and adventurer a onehander should be viable still, while fixers and soldiers are already using onehander or ABC more often than AS pistol I believe.

    Regardless of it being called the craphander or not, the aimed shot levels a 220 can achieve as well as the projectile damage modifier allow it to do enough damage against evaders. The only problem I have ever had with it is the range, which is terrible.


    If AS pistol were removed, however, the difference in damages would be around 1000 points of damage in PVP every 11 seconds I think. I do not consider this very significant outside of duel situations, and for PVP as a whole I think it would affect tower wars a bit (forcing players to be closer to do damage) but not too greatly.
    Last edited by Gatester; Jul 21st, 2013 at 17:41:04.

  5. #65
    1.what lazy said.
    2.whaaaat? 1k dd every 11s? sorry but no. unless you're an enf, troll pistol frequently hits capped. craphander only once in a while. sorry gates, but that is just incorrect. i have both a as pistol user and a toons getting shot with it. that number is just wrong. craphander worse by a large amount, and i dont know for sure about soldiers, but everyone but them will never get a reliable as out of it, as pointed out by josephina. no matter what the add proj dd. just not true. and no, people will not just use different as weapons. some will, not all. and if they do, they will have to give up more than now. as lazy said, problem isnt the capped as every 11s. its that it is on top of a nowadays strong support prof toolset. at the cost of ...almost nothing. if you seriously doubt it, i'll record the logs for you next time i play. too bad i didnt read this before. was up with 3 clan advs, one engi, a crat and a doc. not once did i notice a non-capped hit from any of these. oh, and i'm not low hp.
    3.equally wrong is your statement about mr deadlyness. with my fixer and i can't 100% kill about anything. what you may think is true, in fact isnt. i reperked mr on my fixer. i use it to drop crats - as lazy pointed out. they only die if they're not nm. and fixers and advys - which requires exact timing and as po needs to land people have a very long window to react, which often makes it a failed mr use. other than that i was better off not perking it (as you do give something up for it!). the claim that you hit mr and a key bind and everything will drop is simply not true. i can see how you may think it was like that, and it maybe so on enfs, solidiers or shades (doubt shades, but my shade isnt 220 yet) but not on fixers. and certainly not for profs with even less dd perks. i don't know what else to tell you. it's just not true. also please consider that even if you queue all perks, they're not hitting instantly. yes, there's a 2 sec stun. which will get you to land one perk more in it. especially fixer perks are rather slow, there's no peak perk damage like agents or shades have. also keep in mind that for agent or shade perk peak damage you need to fire other perks first. which will cause mr to run out. i said all this before by the way.
    4.that people are killable without mr is also a debatable issue. of course most fight will end eventually. but they should end at some timely point, espeically if not in a duel setting. and as pointed out before, it is not uncommon for people to not bother anymore on bs. they are killable by other profs maybe, or by zergs or in longer fights. but people should be killable on a casual bs encounter without a couple of minutes. if everyone required 10+ min to kill, it was even more who-zergs-better or incredibly boring. you can put it to the test. if you havent noticed that, check into bs more frequently. it litterally happens every day if i do a couple of rounds that i split ways with people that i can't kill and who can't kill me and we just get bored with it. yes, i do love those fans who don't get tired of chasing me in the hope that they'll run into someone else to help them. but that's just sad. mr does add to killability - and for me makes almost no prof a 100% kill. call me a noob. but prove it. and i have enough non-mr toons to know i don't die that often from mr. mostly when i'm caught off guard, just got from a fight or zerged at the same time. again: prove me wrong. maybe i am just playing all my toons so defensively and my fixer just wrong. but unless someone tells me how that is - all of the mentioned theories are just that, theories. to keep a myth alive.

    i don't mean to say that in a bad way, but i think the major issue here is the difference between theory and reality.

    oh edit: to clear things up: we're talking about half decent equipped 220s right? cuz for greens, i do get your argument.
    Last edited by Xootch; Jul 22nd, 2013 at 05:23:12.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    You are correct lazy, players would shift to other AS weapons instead of just the onehander. If I were to redefine my statement it is that players would seek alternatives which are available. In the cases of engineer and adventurer a onehander should be viable still, while fixers and soldiers are already using onehander or ABC more often than AS pistol I believe.

    Regardless of it being called the craphander or not, the aimed shot levels a 220 can achieve as well as the projectile damage modifier allow it to do enough damage against evaders. The only problem I have ever had with it is the range, which is terrible.


    If AS pistol were removed, however, the difference in damages would be around 1000 points of damage in PVP every 11 seconds I think. I do not consider this very significant outside of duel situations, and for PVP as a whole I think it would affect tower wars a bit (forcing players to be closer to do damage) but not too greatly.
    my point is: people currently using AS pistol would have to make a choice of AS weapon with poor perk support - i.e. Ofab shovel again and retain their 30% as at the cost of ai perk AR and loss of 3 80% check perks OR go back to craphander and retain their perk tools at the loss of a guaranteed 30% capping special. this would give a healthy choice of setups at tl7 and not just the one same setup that everyone and their mum runs. we might even see cute saph-> pe swaps on some profs again like in '06.


    as of today, MR, troll pistol and LE nukes are the triumvirate of horribly broken opness that dominate tl7 pvp and around which 90% of endgame setups are based. the breaking of these 3 tools would go a long way to making tl7 pvp enjoyable and balanced again.


    EDIT: and no, fixers and soldiers don't use ABC because ABC is a load of old wank.,
    Last edited by Lazy; Jul 22nd, 2013 at 09:25:09.

  7. #67
    i really dont understand why you alwasy complain about le nukes.. why do you thing there are almost none active nts? i dont think that is because their toolset is so OP...

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Hassler View Post
    i really dont understand why you alwasy complain about le nukes.. why do you thing there are almost none active nts? i dont think that is because their toolset is so OP...
    because they got tired of getting 1 free kill every 30 minutes so they rolled trox enfos on a 2nd account to run around with while their NT sits in backyard waiting out NBS recharge

  9. #69
    so the problem lies clearly in nbs and not in le nukes...

  10. #70
    no active nts? well those are still too many for me, ie enough so there are often 2+ nts nuking my behind simultaneously. imo shades, advys, fixers and nts are the primary population of bs these days.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    EDIT: and no, fixers and soldiers don't use ABC because ABC is a load of old wank.,
    Yeah, I never understood why people used it myself but I have seen them doing it so figured they might have known something I didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hassler View Post
    i really dont understand why you alwasy complain about le nukes.. why do you thing there are almost none active nts? i dont think that is because their toolset is so OP...
    I leveled from 200 to 220 because I got bored with 2-shotting people in BS...or 1-shotting people with candycane. Albeit hilarious to roll through a BS and drop people other than an incredibly well built soldier or NR character, it gets old.

    Only problem NT's have at 220 is you end up being cannon fodder at wars because everyone wants to alpha the guy doing more damage than the rest of your team with LE nukes.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    as of today, MR, troll pistol and LE nukes are the triumvirate of horribly broken opness that dominate tl7 pvp and around which 90% of endgame setups are based. the breaking of these 3 tools would go a long way to making tl7 pvp enjoyable and balanced again.
    This specific combination of terms simply sound like my doc. Or any other endgame Trox Doc.

    w/o we couldnt perk anything (for 70%)
    w/o Troller we wouldt deal any mentionable weapon damage
    w/o we couldnt hit anything with evades

    Taking away these 3 and only ways to deal mentionable damage would make pvp "enjoyable and balanced again" ? Are you... serious ? You prolly cant be serious.

    Under the line, what would have a doc ? Ubt? Heals ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    because they got tired of getting 1 free kill every 30 minutes so they rolled trox enfos on a 2nd account to run around with while their NT sits in backyard waiting out NBS recharge
    NBS is nothing more then a totally overrated myth.

    Just like crown jewels. Pretty to look, beautiful to think of, but never in a real action.
    Last edited by Dumonde; Jul 24th, 2013 at 16:07:18.
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Dumonde
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Rank1
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Maxwell
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Zidane
    ..:: 220|28|66|e|::.. Isaak
    ..:: 215|20|56|e|::.. Rumb0
    ..:: 215|15|29|e|::.. Tiesto-1
    ..:: 212|17|46|e|::.. Pulsedriver
    ..:: 210|08|09|e|::.. Unseen


    .. :: Punk :: ..

  13. #73
    NBS is just a gank tool, nothing more. An NT can and will kill you with it, but he'll be impotent in terms of defense for a VERY long time. You can't compare that to trox enfos....
    Oh, btw, Troa`ler is a fine pistol and it does what it should do. It's not "guaranteed 30% cap in the hands of everyone", even tho soldiers/advs and some fixers hit very hard with it. On my crat, for example(setup in sig) it caps maybe 4 out of 10 aimed shots. Docs have it even worse.
    I get it, tho, if you play an enfo and you see a doc aimed shotting you for 10k dmg, that's frustrating, but make sure you also look at the other pathetic aimed shots he shot at you. If you do that, the pistol doesn't look that "OMG LOLOP" anymore.
    Contra
    Urynt
    Malraux
    Fontane
    Critbull
    Cleanex
    Fontane2

  14. #74
    More Trol pistol hate. Some new lolz here though ... 80% def checks isn't a reason to QQ about TRO. BTW, how many docs or crats land those things? Good try everyone.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  15. #75
    Wanted to delay a bit before responding to Xootch's wall of text but, onehander should hit about 430 max damage and troll pistol should hit about 1000 max damage, then half that for a typical max damage hit on a 220 support profession.

    A support profession should have enough AS skill for a more common 3x mult, with the next frequent mult's being 2x then 4x (so let's just say 3x on average...and keep in mind I did extensive aimed shot testing before any remarks). That's assuming reasonable AS levels of about 1600 and not something like 2000 aimed shot on a doctor or crat.

    645 3x mult AS damage without damage add for onehander.
    1500 3x mult AS damage without damage add for troll pistol.

    Damage add is irrelevent since it works the same regardless of weapon. With the average of a 2x mult and 4x mult being the same as a 3x mult, I must say that my guess of around 1000 more damage, on average, should be about correct.


    Your experience is going to be biased over the facts of the weapons themselves, because you will generally consider only the heaviest hits. I KNOW through MY experience, this being the important part, that my MA with 23k max health could practically shrug off AS pistol damage because the hits were not that high.

    Now you are free to post damages for an AS pistol and a onehander to counter this, but otherwise I think my knowledge of AS mechanics and the most basic levels of math will trump pure opinion on past PVP statistics.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumonde View Post
    This specific combination of terms simply sound like my doc. Or any other endgame Trox Doc.

    w/o we couldnt perk anything (for 70%)
    w/o Troller we wouldt deal any mentionable weapon damage
    w/o we couldnt hit anything with evades

    Taking away these 3 and only ways to deal mentionable damage would make pvp "enjoyable and balanced again" ? Are you... serious ? You prolly cant be serious.

    Under the line, what would have a doc ? Ubt? Heals ?
    that is a horrible argument. every since amee or what that docs name was, docs were fine in pvp but have significantly gained ever since. it's not like docs didn't use as before trol, they just had to make sacrifices. remember myth setup? oh and in case you forgot, there's malpractice and 3 lines of dots. and even if what you said was true. who said docs need to be able to kill anything? it's not like they can't turn tides in pvp without ever pressing q.

    @gates: I will, once i find some time to be ig a little more, for argument's sake. but since this apparently comes down to this fundamental misconception - on one of the sides, there's no point in arguing atm until we figure this out
    Last edited by Anarrina; Jul 26th, 2013 at 12:02:56.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    that is a horrible argument. every since amee or what that docs name was, docs were fine in pvp but have significantly gained ever since. it's not like docs didn't use as before trol, they just had to make sacrifices. remember myth setup? oh and in case you forgot, there's malpractice and 3 lines of dots. and even if what you said was true. who said docs need to be able to kill anything? it's not like they can't turn tides in pvp without ever pressing q.

    @gates: I will, once i find some time to be ig a little more, for argument's sake. but since this apparently comes down to this fundamental misconception - on one of the sides, there's no point in arguing atm until we figure this out
    It is from a docs point of view.

    I fought several times against Aymee and the only mentionable thing was his HP. Tbh, he got more HP then the most docs nowadays, but the AS and overall PVP performance was purely average.

    MALP is a nasty and helpful - without a doubt. But thats nearly the only really viable offensive tool for a doc. Putting the 3 dots into the discussion - thats a horrible argument. Too long casting times (except Nanite C dot) and the NR check renders them relatively useless in the most situations.

    This thing with "a support prof doesnt need to be able to kill anything" is a bit retarded. In every other game, every support profession is able to kill (almost) as good as the real damage classes. Who in AO said, or where is it written, that a support prof is not ment to do so too ?

    Try a duel vs. shades, solds, MA, Enforcer and all other classes without an AS weapon. Dots will mostly be useless (NR too high, Nano drained, skills drained, or all aspects together), MALP will be countered more then 50%. Spamming isnt that useful since your nano will be empty before your oponent will even recognise a loss of hp.

    Yes, we docs can heal pretty much. Impressive, since thats our main purpose. But ever since AO (and any other game) is existing - you wont kill a target with just surviving with heals. Maybe you beat your oponent with a massive ammount of boredom damage. Maybe.

    Greetings,
    Dumo
    Last edited by Anarrina; Jul 26th, 2013 at 12:03:34.
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Dumonde
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Rank1
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Maxwell
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Zidane
    ..:: 220|28|66|e|::.. Isaak
    ..:: 215|20|56|e|::.. Rumb0
    ..:: 215|15|29|e|::.. Tiesto-1
    ..:: 212|17|46|e|::.. Pulsedriver
    ..:: 210|08|09|e|::.. Unseen


    .. :: Punk :: ..

  18. #78
    You take your heals and you use them to your main advantage. A doctor is designed to outlast an opponent. Don't say "Try a duel versus -Damage damage damage stunmonkey- and you'll lose" cause that just means there's 9 classes you utterly dominate without actually being hurt.
    I'm Batman.

  19. #79
    I can't be the only one who doesn't want a class nerfed, simply because there's another class which I've seen blow them apart in a matter of seconds; as a Shade, Fixers are hell. Even with MR they don't die when they're told. Shades also struggle with good soldiers.
    Don't use this as a "Docs need more damage" because they don't. Never have, never will.
    I'm Batman.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyoming View Post
    Don't use this as a "Docs need more damage" because they don't. Never have, never will.
    who said that they need more damage? no one... dumo only stated that doc without AS will lose vs most of the profs because they lack dmg to kill them

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