Funcom , why do you penalize and nerf PVMers over PVPers issues... (NSD NERF)

[Ahndracorvid]

NSD is ridiculous, no matter what the TL. For some profs, it's akin to taking away their weapon or buffs.

Guys. Not everything has to be about PvP. Also:

So are trader drains. And doc/crat init debuffs. And engineer blockers. And crat charms. And fixer roots/snares.

^ This.

I know that's not where you were going with it but feeling a little jaded atm

If you already knew that's not what I was trying to get at then...

My point was that tackling content at a level at which it's actually challenging enough to be fun should be encouraged. Sometimes you want a break from just Q-AFKing your way through everything because it gets boring. I can't be the only person who feels that way.

About the inferno key.. if someone is 220 and doesn't already have the inferno key, I'm not sure why they're even bothering with it (unless for the treatment buff?)

Just wanted to point out that if you're Omni (or Neutral) being able to garden hop to Inf so you can use the Dark Marshes exit is a great shortcut to the DOJA farming spot. For me it's one of the main reasons for getting Inf keys on toons. Granted I rarely wait until 220 to do so, but others who are already 220 might still be after DOJAs for research.

[Traderjill]

Ahn- I actually agree with you.. I was just being a little silly. Sorry if that didn't come off that way (obviously it didn't by your response). I put the smiley at the end and everything...

As for your inferno key comment, good point, I normally get mine at 160 so its not really an issue. By the time I'm 220 I'm generally done with any research necessary to equip my alphas and don't really bother farming DOJAs so guess it just didn't occur to me

[Ahndracorvid]

Meh. I'm cynical enough these days that I can never tell if people are using emoticons "for srs" or sarcastically any more.

[Obtena]

So are trader drains. And doc/crat init debuffs. And engineer blockers. And crat charms. And fixer roots/snares.

Yes. Of course not on topic but meh, for what it's worth, those things are ridiculous for PVP too.

[Obtena]

Guys. Not everything has to be about PvP. Also:

It's not, but it does have to consider it, just like everyone is concerned how NSD nerf is affecting PVM. Personally, I don't think losing NSD for PVM is that big a consequence. It's a crutch that gets MPs teams the odd time. If MP players want to replace "the odd time" with "more often than the odd time", stupid stuff like NSD are going to have to go.

[Esssch]

Yes, naturally losing part of our toolset will get us more teams



Wait a second, that doesn't sound right...

[Obtena]

Yes, naturally losing part of our toolset will get us more teams



Wait a second, that doesn't sound right...

That's just being shortsighted. Lucky for you, GD isn't. The only reason you get teams for NSD and not any other time is because the rest of your toolset is crap. That's not going to change if something drastic doesn't happen to NSD.

[Esssch]

You are so hilariously out-of-touch with the game and the situation of MPs and NSD. It's kind of sad, even more-so because you're arguing for the nerfing of NSD.

[Contra]

The only encounter atm where I think you "need" NSD for is the shade PB, Wistful Apparition(that's the name, afaik) to guarantee a 100% success rate.
Btw, where does this delusion that MPs are useless come from? It's really good DD(if setuped right), it's backup heal and unlimmited nano for everyone. I GET the frustration against the 3-man combo, that MPs, agents and traders suffer from, but come on...what's this hurry to get content done ASAP? What does it matter if a boss mob is killed in 4 minutes or 5? Are you people really that desperate?
I like having either of those unwanted profs in my teams, no matter what I'm doing.

PS: there's an MP actively playing that's been ODing crats and shades at 12man constantly. Even if those crats and shades aren't pushing it, I feel that being close to their damage is actually very decent for an MP, especially when everyone screams "GIMP" at them.

[Traderjill]

The only encounter atm where I think you "need" NSD for is the shade PB, Wistful Apparition(that's the name, afaik) to guarantee a 100% success rate.
Btw, where does this delusion that MPs are useless come from? It's really good DD(if setuped right), it's backup heal and unlimmited nano for everyone. I GET the frustration against the 3-man combo, that MPs, agents and traders suffer from, but come on...what's this hurry to get content done ASAP? What does it matter if a boss mob is killed in 4 minutes or 5? Are you people really that desperate?
I like having either of those unwanted profs in my teams, no matter what I'm doing.

PS: there's an MP actively playing that's been ODing crats and shades at 12man constantly. Even if those crats and shades aren't pushing it, I feel that being close to their damage is actually very decent for an MP, especially when everyone screams "GIMP" at them.

I have a 220 MP and she does good DD when I'm paying attention. The only time my DD sucks is when I'm wearing a shield in very specific situations (i.e. when I"m kicking for Collector).

That being said, the issue with MP's/Traders/Agents/whoever, not getting teams isn't necessarily because people are in a rush as much as that's one more person to share loot with that isn't necessary for the success of the team. Would it be easier if you threw in a support prof like a MP or Trader? Absolutely. Do you 'need' them there in order to successfully beat the boss? No. That's the problem.

[Esssch]

The only encounter atm where I think you "need" NSD for is the shade PB, Wistful Apparition(that's the name, afaik) to guarantee a 100% success rate.
Btw, where does this delusion that MPs are useless come from? It's really good DD(if setuped right), it's backup heal and unlimmited nano for everyone. I GET the frustration against the 3-man combo, that MPs, agents and traders suffer from, but come on...what's this hurry to get content done ASAP? What does it matter if a boss mob is killed in 4 minutes or 5? Are you people really that desperate?
I like having either of those unwanted profs in my teams, no matter what I'm doing.

PS: there's an MP actively playing that's been ODing crats and shades at 12man constantly. Even if those crats and shades aren't pushing it, I feel that being close to their damage is actually very decent for an MP, especially when everyone screams "GIMP" at them.

Shade PB is unaffected by NSD. Just like every other boss put in-game in the last 9 years.

This is the same problem we ran into pre-SL. To be decent, we have to try to be soldiers with pets, which isn't how the profession should play. Almost any other profession can pull more DD if set up right (we have one of, if not the, lowest AR templates post-1k), advs and MAs can both do more damage and better healing, NTs are better damage and provide more nano for their team (not like that really matters in the current state of AO).

[Obtena]

You are so hilariously out-of-touch with the game and the situation of MPs and NSD. It's kind of sad, even more-so because you're arguing for the nerfing of NSD.

Maybe ... but anyone that can't see how NSD is bad for MP situation is way more more out of touch. It's a pretty simple approach ... it's hard to justify improvements with tools like this in MP set.

That's OK, Obviously you don't care if MP's are pigeonholed with a single tool, making them the backwater profession they are.

Shade PB is unaffected by NSD. Just like every other boss put in-game in the last 9 years.

Funny how people would rather hold onto a single, scenario specific tool providing minimal application for their professions instead of getting rid of that single tools for new, better ones will expand the overall usefulness for that profession. What can be said ... Have fun with your IS and Inferno faction team events.

[Traderjill]

Not really ... I would say anyone that thinks NSD is a necessary tool in today's AO is more out of touch than someone who recognizes that if MP's are to get good tools and teams with an expanded toolset, the stupid ones have to go.

That's OK, Obviously you don't care if MP's are the backwater profession with one whole trick to play.

I feel like I've missed something here. Isn't NSD being changed because it is to become one of the MP's useful tools? Right now, its pretty useless but when NSD will actually work on endgame bosses then it'll become a very useful/wanted tool.

That being said, it only working for 15sec with such a long cooldown would make it really cumbersome to use effectively and I think that's the issue some of us have with the change. AO isn't WoW (just as an example) where you can see that a boss is about to cast something and interrupt or silence it to prevent raid/team wide damage. There also doesn't seem to be a consistant timing to when bosses cast certain spells. So yeah, they're changing NSD but still making it such that it'll be pretty much useless.. in other words.. why bother changing it at all?

Seems you have some insight on this so if you wouldn't mind providing a tad bit more explanation on your comments.. I'm kinda curious as to how you're perceiving the nerf of NSD as contributing to helping MP's down the line (in other words, I'm asking a serious question and hope you'll respond with a serious, non mean-spirited answer).

Thanks in advance.

[Obtena]

I think the changes are just inline with what we have already seen previously, much for the same reasons we have heard previously. If the philosophy that debuffs are not spammable but more widely applicable, seems to me this change hits the mark. I certainly don't see this change as a PVP-only consideration at all. In fact, I think it's driven by PVM stuff (the fact that it doesn't work in most PVM things where it would be valued). Frankly, the game is really dumbed down by tools like NSD. That's exactly why endgame mobs have these specific immunities.

NSD will be cumbersome and hard to use effectively? I think that's taking a certain slant. Looks to me like certain attributes are being traded for others. It's also going to be more applicable as well. If I were to guess, I would say the intention there is that NSD will be something that will need more organization to be used effectively with tools from other people in the team instead of just spamming it if we want to shut down endgame bosses. Even at 15 seconds with a minute cooldown, that's 25% of the time the mob isn't casting. I don't find that unreasonable. I can already think of where that expands the use of the tool and might even be able to think of new content that makes use of that. 15 seconds is a long time if you think about it. Can rebuff in that time (well, hopefully at some point).

have to remember these changes are not the final word here. It's one change is just part of the whole bunch over a period of time.

[Obtena]

I'm won't hang my hat on this exactly 25% number, but I'm willing to bet that for most debuffs that 'shut down', they won't be capable of being up 100% and they won't be up for longer than 10-20 seconds. That's just based on what we seen previously. We got a taste on how nanos were going to change and even though it was years ago, seems a reasonable direction for both PVM and PVP.

[Traderjill]

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=606403

Related post asking for suggestions that Genele can take into consideration when making boss mob changes regarding NSD immunity.

[Esssch]

Maybe ... but anyone that can't see how NSD is bad for MP situation is way more more out of touch. It's a pretty simple approach ... it's hard to justify improvements with tools like this in MP set.

That's OK, Obviously you don't care if MP's are pigeonholed with a single tool, making them the backwater profession they are.



Funny how people would rather hold onto a single, scenario specific tool providing minimal application for their professions instead of getting rid of that single tools for new, better ones will expand the overall usefulness for that profession. What can be said ... Have fun with your IS and Inferno faction team events.

I'm hanging onto the one debuff that has been iconic of the MP profession, much like mochams has been the one buff iconic of MPs. And having NSD has in no way affected the current state of MPs. If it had, you wouldn't see crats where they're at currently.

Have you ever used NSD? Or even played a TL7 MP? Or do you just enjoy arguing for the sake of it? NSD was already balanced. 160% NR check and 9.3s/6s cast/recharge made it balanced, so it's immediately less spammable than crat or doc debuffs and harder to land. And yet we see NSD getting a nerf next patch, with doc and crat debuffs staying exactly the same, with "planned" changes in several more decades.

Can you honestly say that you think MPs need to be nerfed? If so, we can immediately dismiss everything you said or will say in this thread.

NSD will be cumbersome and hard to use effectively? I think that's taking a certain slant. Looks to me like certain attributes are being traded for others. It's also going to be more applicable as well. If I were to guess, I would say the intention there is that NSD will be something that will need more organization to be used effectively with tools from other people in the team instead of just spamming it if we want to shut down endgame bosses.

AKA we'll need 4 MPs per raid to shut down a boss? I fail to see how this is taking a certain slant. You have the facts:

NSD will have 25% uptime.
Bosses cast nanos at random intervals.
Players have no visual or aural indication or when bosses will be casting.

Please explain to me how having a 25% uptime is going to help when it'll still be a crapshoot of when to cast it? Say I cast it every time I can, to get the most uptime on it, but then I end up missing the cast because the 15 seconds I chose were the wrong 15 seconds.

[Gatester]

I thought NSD worked on the shade PB...could have sworn it landed after several attempts but maybe not.

[Esssch]

I haven't done it, I'm going off this post

[Traderjill]

I thought NSD worked on the shade PB...could have sworn it landed after several attempts but maybe not.

I got it to land with my MP when I was farming spirits for my shade just under a year ago.