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Thread: Monthly Development Update - 1st November 2013

  1. #61

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekarona View Post
    So the old stuff was so advanced the modern hardware isn't there yet ;D
    Less restrictions, but also a lot slower
    GPUs are fast because they have very strict constraints.
    My posts are my own and do not reflect the views of my current nor former employers/clients

    Remco "Vhab" van Oosterhout
    Former Anarchy Online Game Programmer


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  2. #62
    Business model problem with AO:

    Many new players try AO and find the steep learning curve a problem and leave within a short space of time.

    How to keep paying players playing.

    Solutions:

    Make NPE easier? NPE, Mentor/experienced player hub. Reduce complexity of vast items database. [Devs]

    New engine. Shiny objects/graphics to draw back players and entice new ones. [Devs]

    Experienced players helping/mentoring newbies. [Players]

    *********
    Above is a summary of how I see how things are (or in development)

    *********

    What keeps me playing/paying on my 2 (pay) accounts. Currently 15x 220s (So I have logged a few hours play)?

    I enjoy the community and the orgs set-up. I am PvM player and don't like the PvP in AO or being forced in that direction (flagged from daily missions for example).

    I like the fact that AO is still AO and hasen't been reborn as AO2/AO3 etc .... wasting the hours of work on my toons.

    I like the depth of toon development.

    I like helping newbies, but don't want all my gaming time spent doing this - So we (as an org) all spend some time helping.

    *************
    What I would like to see:

    More daily missions/quests/'dungeons' - fill some of the vacant outdoor player city spots perhaps with these.

    Better use of player cities.... atm build and forget other than AI city raids and perhaps xp buff from sauna. (We have a monthly org meeting in city too). Maybe cities can be further improved by quest items?

    A new profession? or a new breed. Speaking as someone with 40+ alts - I'd like to try something new. (mixed breed/alien race).

    Maybe an in-game reward for helping/mentoring?

    On a final note....

    We as a 'always recruiting' neutral org. See 50+ per month new players - We do our best to nurture them to keep them playing.

    AO is great for it's accessibility i.e. It can be played on low spec machines with slow connections.... Will the new engine change that? Will players still be able to dual/triple (or more) log? [Be careful what you wish for].
    President, The House of Black Star

  3. #63
    What I'd love to see in a monthly update is Genele giving us her take on the new player experience now and where she wants to see it say a year from now. When I say new player experience I am NOT just talking about noob island (past, current or future) but the entire process that someone, brand new to AO, goes through from the start of their toon all the way to reaching endgame. A lot of changes, over the years, have seemed to try to address the very start or the very end but almost none of them address the black hole people fall into in the middle (which is in fact where most of the game experience, or lack thereof, takes place).

    The economy in this game is screwed up. I'd like to see some open/honest communication regarding the devs view on why it has happened and how you plan to address it (if at all). Whenever the topic comes up on the forums, the word 'exploit' gets mentioned and then the thread is either quickly locked or deleted. Every patch we see that some exploits were fixed.. I think its well past time that you start being candid about the impact these are having and start working towards less 'pay in game credits to win' behaviors and start pushing players back towards actually playing the game and doing the content with toons that need gear.

    I don't have a true opinion on the color coding. It can't hurt anything but, as others have stated, it seems to me that while you're at it you need to revisit the useless crap that drops off RK mobs and that cycles endlessly in the RK shops. I'm guessing 80% of it could simply be deleted which would leave 20% of the current items (and betting even only 50% of that would be anything that people regularly equip).

    As for the game and what is driving me away this time:
    1. Beast reflect shield change. The screw up with the beast's reflect shield is a prime example of me feeling like the devs couldn't care less about the playerbase. You guys, somehow, messed up a critical game encounter and just left it that way for months. There was no mention of a change in the patch notes, no real acknowledgement of the problem as a bug when it was reported.. it is annoying and detracts from the player experience "right now" and you guys just left it. I'm glad to see Michi is finally fixing it but for someone like me that came back to game to that crap... it was a nice slap in the face for my return and an unnecessary aggravant.

    2. REALLY messed up loot system for endgame instances. If you want to take something from games like WoW then take a look at how they handle loot. You can learn a lot from a dummy, as they say. Someone in another thread (can't remember who.. maybe Trypha) stated something like "its all about the feeling of progression". That's totally true! No one needs loot handed to them on a silver platter, but playing the game, doing content should at least give the illusion of progress. Instead, with the current system, you could do the same instance over and over and over and over (x1000) and never get the item you need. Or you could do it once and get it right away. This isn't the multi-state lotto.. I don't want a 1 in a million chance of getting a gun for my toon off beast. I don't want to have to not play the toon I need gear on because I get an 8 hour lockout and can't risk it. The mechanics in the game discourage us from playing our newly rolled toons... you guys need to look at that and fix it. Set up some new currency systems so we're rewarded everytime we actually do content on a toon and can use said currency to buy items if we just have crap luck. It's not hard, the mechanics already exist in game in several different forms.. just do it already.

    3. Primetime USA is a joke.

    4. Clanside PvP.. what happened to our bots? I remember (pre-merge RK2) that there was warsrus and if I wanted to go pvp on my TL5 I'd just log in and someone always had something jumping off. For a PvP novice, that was a great resource. With all the infighting RK1vsRk2 crap, multi-boxing drama, GM banning drama and whatever else.. seems like there's not a community approach to PvP anymore. I see things happening, but it all seems rather privatized. I joined the only bot I know about but never see anything happening. Yay for coming back, rolling 2 new toons for PvP, gearing them up and letting them sit and do nothing. I mention this here because I think the server merge wasn't thought out well.. "Let's throw 2 groups that have grown totally different cultures into 1 server and see what happens". No thought put into how PvP would go down, no thought into fixing spawn times on mobs.. it was half-done.

    5. Multiboxing. Mentioned above but it needs special mention not because I think it's the end of the world but because I can't believe Funcom actually came out and endorsed it. You guys sit silent on so much stuff that happens in game and when you decide to comment on something questionable you actually give it a green light??? It would've been better to say nothing than to come out and say "yeah its ok for you to use 3rd party programs to send commands to a whole team of toons at once." Way to go for encouraging teamwork, way to go for encouraging people to play together. What the heck were you guys thinking? I have mutliple accounts out of necessity and all you did was say "yeah, automate your gameplay.. its cool". Next thing you know you're going to be telling us its ok to use programs to warp across maps.. that's just automating travel.. at least you're still sitting at your computer when you do it, right? Many of us thought that multiboxing (not to be confused with multi-logging) was against game rules.. when you said it was ok you just introduced a whole new group of people to playing solo rather than with others.. how is that at all good for a MMO?

    6. Too many exploiters in game. Its easier now for me to count the people I know in game that don't exploit than the people that do. You guys are letting things go unchecked to the point that people don't even care about saying they're exploiting anymore. If I stopped playing with every person I know that uses or is using an exploit I'd have like a handful of people to play with. You have major orgs using exploits, long-term players using exploits. Some people I've considered close friend and played with for years.. exploiting.. because they feel they need to do it just to stay competitive with the other exploiters. You guys don't know or you don't care or what is the deal that this is allowed to go on for so long? When its at the point where I know its happening it is a problem.. because no one, historically, tells me about exploits because they know I'll report it.

    I'm starting to ramble so just going to shut up at this point.
    Last edited by Traderjill; Nov 2nd, 2013 at 16:31:24.
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  4. #64
    AO needs many new systems to deal with the ever growing MMO population and games. AO needs developers to actually spend some time to get changes out the door. The closed beta was announced in July and it was stated "over the coming months we will invite many players..." while not a specific time, its been 4 months and it still sounds like the closed engine beta has still got many more months to go before invites are even sent JUST for the closed beta and with how great and speedy AO is at development, the actual engine release on live is like 2 years away or more.

    As mentioned, AO needs to develop an entire series of new mechanics in order to combat the archaic and frustrating systems in place and also deal with obsolete things. Such as raid mechanics, an actual system in place to handle loot. If we are going down this rainbow road of loot then it will also play in to how people will decide what they need/want when obtaining loot from raids or other team instances.

    Yes, I am actually saying get rid of player run bots and mentality on how to distribute loot. I will elaborate on this a little later.

    Selling items to a vendor mechanics, there is too much damn clicking involved also there needs to be the ability to buy back items you sold to the vendor as well and while were at it, lets make it so we can see what are in backpacks before we trade them with another player.

    While it is unique that players have control of what to do with their loot it has created a new type of problem, loot right selling. Because players can sell lootrights to nodrop loot it has changed player mentality and how people view doing content in AO. I would say for the most part a majority of the player base sell nodrop loot as their main source of income. Groups form with the bare minimum or in some cases 1 person with 4-6 accounts doing content for the sole purpose of selling nodrop loot to a player who needs it. Instead of inviting the player that needs it (whether thats via lft or otherwise) they are only out for profit. Also a big thing to mention is that players use 1 of the main professions to feed loot to their various alts and I will elaborate on that a little later.

    The reasons why people do this are vast and varied and I am not going to talk about or list them and I dont really care about people's own personal experiences with doing it, not doing it, or only doing it after they check if anyone doesn't need it. The fact of the matter is that it happens and it isn't good/healthy for the game.

    Unfortunately, in my opinion, we cant have a raid mechanic system in place until after balance because of how useless some professions are. Another thing is rocking the boat. So many people will cry about how its such a bad change, how they cant farm credits anymore, how loot is rotting etc that people would seriously quit and for AO that is something to consider cause thats money and right now AO is barely scraping by.

    Hypothetically, if a raid mechanic system were to come out tomorrow I think we would see less people forming raids and for the most part people would be doing it with their orgs and friends and MAYBE inviting people from lft. It is hard to say. I mean, the population has built an entire system on repeating content and what would be the point of repeating content if there is nothing to gain by doing it. To suddenly make it so you cant sell/give away nodrop loot, will be a pretty fun roller coaster.

    So, with all that said, this is the point I am trying to get across and it sort of touches on what people have said in this thread (which is; why waste the man hours doing such and such when XYZ is more important). There are a billion problems wrong with AO, there are a lot of old, obsolete, infuriating problems with the game. AO also has some major issues that require overhauls and entire systems and mechanics to be developed. The dev team in their current state doesn't have the man power to address those issues and probably wont for a very long time or even ever. AO gets little to no support from the other devs that work on AoC and TSW and it will remain that way unless they do an overhaul on AO's code which will never ever happen. AO will continue developing at a snail's pace until its death, even once the engine, NPE and Steam release brings in new blood and profit. Yes, the possibility is there that they may hire some people to work specifically on AO when those 3 things happen, but it remains to be seen and it still wont mean much of anything because AO will still be developing at a snail's pace.
    Last edited by MachSchau; Nov 2nd, 2013 at 18:17:22.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post


    1. Beast reflect shield change. The screw up with the beast's reflect shield is a prime example of me feeling like the devs couldn't care less about the playerbase. You guys, somehow, messed up a critical game encounter and just left it that way for months. There was no mention of a change in the patch notes, no real acknowledgement of the problem as a bug when it was reported.. it is annoying and detracts from the player experience "right now" and you guys just left it. I'm glad to see Michi is finally fixing it but for someone like me that came back to game to that crap... it was a nice slap in the face for my return and an unnecessary aggravant.
    I also thought many times about this. It's like when you were a kid and broke your mom's vase. You didn't say anything, but your mom noticed and when she yelled at you you still said you didn't do it. Until you glued it together and said "it was broken" without admitting YOU did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post

    2. REALLY messed up loot system for endgame instances. If you want to take something from games like WoW then take a look at how they handle loot. You can learn a lot from a dummy, as they say. Someone in another thread (can't remember who.. maybe Trypha) stated something like "its all about the feeling of progression". That's totally true! No one needs loot handed to them on a silver platter, but playing the game, doing content should at least give the illusion of progress. Instead, with the current system, you could do the same instance over and over and over and over (x1000) and never get the item you need. Or you could do it once and get it right away. This isn't the multi-state lotto.. I don't want a 1 in a million chance of getting a gun for my toon off beast. I don't want to have to not play the toon I need gear on because I get an 8 hour lockout and can't risk it. The mechanics in the game discourage us from playing our newly rolled toons... you guys need to look at that and fix it. Set up some new currency systems so we're rewarded everytime we actually do content on a toon and can use said currency to buy items if we just have crap luck. It's not hard, the mechanics already exist in game in several different forms.. just do it already.
    I know all the farming and monothematic leveling system of the game (Hecklers back then) made my brother and many many others quit.

    It's like a lot have said: You wanna copy WoW? Copy the good stuff!
    Protektor- Engydoggy- Spydoggy- RealMadrid - Some others.
    Rolling around RK since Dec 2001.
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  6. #66
    Players proposing stopping the froob program... darwin award worthy. If you want to kill the game just say so.

    Not sure about that color code thingy... probably better to simply put a warning or color on some items (ga, ns and some others), than to go all bonkers here.
    I'm fine with giving a bone to new players, such as helping them avoid deleting a ga or some other stuffs, but the beauty of the game is partly in finding what is valuable for others and what is valuable to you and understanding the why and how.
    There are no problem that an absence of solution could'nt solve

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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    Does this include the subscription offer?
    Why does FC hate money too much to answer this question?

  8. #68
    Is the reason weapons cant be used while in social actually because they don't have type fields associated with them (Like 1 hand ranged, 2 hand melee, etc) and things would be weird to see a melee weapon shooting lasers?

    If so then if you are going through them anyways, you deffintetly might want to consider adding those fields!
    Krause Equip

    *** Krause's Evil WTB Thread! (Weird/Odd Stuff) ***
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    This is going to get done if it kills me or preferably someone else.

  9. #69
    The 'beta' is just going to become another 'new engine'. Something they dangle in front of us for ages and then never come through with.

    Prove me wrong FC, I dare you.

  10. #70
    Rarity as expressed by drop rate is already in the database. That part is easy.
    Almost all of the items colors can be automated with SQL updates. This information is in the database in one table or another. If it's in there it can be used.

    • Grey - Everything that doesn't fit into the following categories
    • White - If its used in a tradeskill or buffs a stat (or a purpose?). i.e. Concrete Cushion
    • Orange - Boss loot, end game items that are tradeskilled from boss loot. i.e. Beast weapons and Xan Weapon upgrades.
    • Blue - Items that are quest items, again, in the database and easy to update
    • Yellow - ?
    • Purple - You forgot about purples! Since you seem to be copying/borrowing color schemes from other games, what about purple? Purple could indicate Boss loot that isn't as rare as Orange loot. Dyna bosses, storyline quests etc... i.e. Shades of Lucubration


    After all of these have been automated, manually update the remaining few dozen or so items. If you don't have someone who can do it, send me a copy of the related tables and I'll do it for you for free. I'll sign any NDA you need. Let me know what else you need cleaned up while I'm in there. You can run a SQL Compare on what I return to make sure I only changed the stuff you want before merging the updates back in. I can provide you with all of the updates as SQL scripts, Excel, or just about any format you can use. I'm know I am not the only one in this community with skills they would offer for free in some cases.

    You want to help new players and just about everyone else? Make most of what is commonly shop-food now somewhat useful. How about an across the board scaled update to weapons to increase damage and effectiveness. Of course scaled so the current better items are still better. Remember Chem Mausers? If they were at least useable until players could get a more useful item some new players may not be so quick to leave. While we are at it, lets look at the usefulness of the bulk of the items and drop a good portion of it completely. This isn't necessary but might help reduce frustration and confusion for new players.

    Add a +1 or Like option to the forums so that you can tell what the player-base thinks is important.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Teknologist View Post
    You want to help new players and just about everyone else? Make most of what is commonly shop-food now somewhat useful. How about an across the board scaled update to weapons to increase damage and effectiveness. Of course scaled so the current better items are still better. Remember Chem Mausers? If they were at least useable until players could get a more useful item some new players may not be so quick to leave. While we are at it, lets look at the usefulness of the bulk of the items and drop a good portion of it completely. This isn't necessary but might help reduce frustration and confusion for new players.

    Add a +1 or Like option to the forums so that you can tell what the player-base thinks is important.
    I bump these ideas, and I throw in a "mention" function in forums. Like, say someone is selling something on the Market Forums and a buddy of mine knows I needed that, but I'm not 24/7 checking forums; then such buddy could tag/mention me in the thread, I would get a mail notification instantly and badaboom, you could revamp the whole forum experience for n00blets. Also it would make people feel "closer" to the community.

    On the whole revamping the old items, I couldn't agree more. Maussers were the sh*t at some point, aswell as Manex's or Nophex I's or X-3 or Ithaka's. I say bring all of that stuff back. Yeah sure, let Xan stuff still be beter, but at least give fr00bs the opportunity to feel they can compete.

    EDIT: Same goes for armor. Revamp Mantis, DeCranum (both I and II), Sekutek, even Azure.
    Protektor- Engydoggy- Spydoggy- RealMadrid - Some others.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by User1337 View Post
    I bump these ideas, and I throw in a "mention" function in forums. Like, say someone is selling something on the Market Forums and a buddy of mine knows I needed that, but I'm not 24/7 checking forums; then such buddy could tag/mention me in the thread, I would get a mail notification instantly and badaboom, you could revamp the whole forum experience for n00blets. Also it would make people feel "closer" to the community.

    On the whole revamping the old items, I couldn't agree more. Maussers were the sh*t at some point, aswell as Manex's or Nophex I's or X-3 or Ithaka's. I say bring all of that stuff back. Yeah sure, let Xan stuff still be beter, but at least give fr00bs the opportunity to feel they can compete.

    EDIT: Same goes for armor. Revamp Mantis, DeCranum (both I and II), Sekutek, even Azure.
    +1
    #User1337

    I was just thinking I forgot to mention the armor. I was thinking of all of those old items. I originally made a generic statement then added the part about the weapons and forgot to clarify it more.
    I'm sure there is a drop rate percentage somewhere for all of these items. Use that to scale the damage or AC's.
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  13. #73
    FC will never stop to amuse me!

    Over the years there were thousands of suggestions posted by players in "Game Suggestions" forum sections. If you filter out the best ones you would have few dozens of excellent sugestions that would really help AO to make it better game...

    Yet instead of listening to players FC preffers to copy some stupid ideas from other games.

    HAVE ANYBODY EVER COMPLAINED ABOUT LACK OF COLOUR CODING SYSTEM FOR ITEMS???

    AO is a unique game with probably one of the most loyal customer base!
    I know many people that quit playing 2-3 times (or more) and came back because there is no other game like AO and people love it.

    Copying ideas from other games and making AO easier and easier to play will have the following results:

    1. It will not make AO among top 10 most popular MMORPGS with hundreds thousands of subscribers!
    2. It will disscourage existing players even more and will result in more cancelations of accounts created 5, 10 or more years ago.

    AO is a unique niche game
    Accept it and make it even better
    You will never have hundreds thousands of new subscribers but you could get back few thousands of players who appreciate AO for all the unique aspects and not just another WoW clone for mentally retarded 12yrs old....
    Awikun 220/70/30 Ranged adv - my Main that I hardly ever log
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  14. #74

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Teknologist View Post
    Rarity as expressed by drop rate is already in the database. That part is easy.
    This won't account for the rarity of the mob that drops it, the difficulty of taking down that mob, the difficulty of reaching/spawning that mob, instance lock timers, etc.
    Setting rarity purely based on drop rate, you'd end up with many valuable items being marked as trash due to their high drop rate. As well as worthless items being marked as rare.
    Items with incorrectly marked rarity is way worse to a new player's experience than an item without marked rarity.

    It's a manual process.

    I know you're all trying to offer suggestions on how to make certain things go faster, but you're making assumptions based on limited and incomplete information.
    Genele & co aren't doing this process manually just for the heck of it, they do it because it's the only reliable method.

    Also, do note
    Quote Originally Posted by Genele View Post
    It is not like I will set anyone full time on re-exporting all items in AO because we added item rarity. That would be insanely stupid. Over time we will have the most important items covered anyway.
    Last edited by Vhab; Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:59:52.
    My posts are my own and do not reflect the views of my current nor former employers/clients

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    Former Anarchy Online Game Programmer


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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    This won't account for the rarity of the mob that drops it, the difficulty of taking down that mob, the difficulty of reaching/spawning that mob, instance lock timers, etc.
    Setting rarity purely based on drop rate, you'd end up with many valuable items being marked as trash due to their high drop rate. As well as worthless items being marked as rare.
    Items with incorrectly marked rarity is way worse to a new player's experience than an item without marked rarity.

    It's a manual process.
    If the Mob spawn rates are also in the database it can be included. Its data pure and simple. Unless those values are hard coded in, which would be horrible and should be fixed asap! The bulk of it can be automated. I know there will be manual tweaking involved. There may even be a few hundred left to tweak manually, but there are thousands of items...
    But seriously if there is that much to do manually it shouldn't even be attempted. We don't need colors...

    My offer for help still stands. I work with SQL everyday, all day long. For about 15 years now. I am sure a fresh pair of eyes can only help the situation. I'm used to working on projects inherited from non database coders. It gives me job security!

    You (Funcom) have nothing to lose by letting me look at the data and letting me make a professional assessment. If I see the data and decide it isn't worth the effort I would simply say so.
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    Guess I'll make a short return from the dead to explain this.

    The problem is really straight forward (as any game dev should know), the old engine uses software skinning which doesn't have strict limitations on bone count.
    The new engine uses hardware skinning and is limited by the restrictions DX9 places on the amount of data we can send to the shader.
    There were some old assets that used too many bones and are now causing problems. Hence they need to be fixed.
    The AO dev team has generally held on to the special sauce of the old engine and not shared how it is made. So as me and you talked once before our point of view is all assumption. Yes we could have assumed it was software skinning versus hardware skinning but at best we had a 50/50 chance of being correct.

    I appreciate the response Vhab. We at least know for certain now that the old engine used software skinning and allowed for an excessive number of bones to be used in the rigged models. I am sure that has some measurable impact on overall performance that was not realized back in the day.
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  17. #77
    Color/rarity is a bad idea and waste of time. just concentrate on bug repair and get that engine out.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Veev View Post
    I think people complaining about item rarity are just being foolish/stubborn and insistent on rebelling against anything WoW-related.
    +1 - but technically it's NOT WoW related but actually Diablo where the idea comes from if we are speaking strictly from blizzard.

    Prior to that the old turned based TSR dungeons and dragons games had color coding also for artifacts/rare items back in the 90's. fyi.
    Last edited by Psikie; Nov 5th, 2013 at 00:54:58.
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  19. #79
    I hate colorz!!!
    Too careb3ar!!1!
    N00bz should l2p!!!oneone!!1!
    How dare you use something that's being used in WoW?????!!11!!unouno!!


    Also, my 386 with Hercules graphics won't be able to show the colored items properly! Why all the vet h8???!
    Last edited by BytEfLUSh2; Nov 5th, 2013 at 00:03:59.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Lizenglish View Post
    AO is great for it's accessibility i.e. It can be played on low spec machines with slow connections.... Will the new engine change that? Will players still be able to dual/triple (or more) log? [Be careful what you wish for].
    Out of interest I logged both my aoc and tsw accounts at the same time to see if it would work and they did, so assuming its the same engine ish - it should be able to dual/triple etc. make sure u have some good cooling though as my vidoe card was running at 86% load when I was running it - but that was with the graphics settings maxed out!!

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