These proposed changes>latest proposed changes

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'm a bit embarrassed, because I just realised I've been playing for AO for 5 years, because I've been waiting for the nano changes to keeper's in this:

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...-Documentation



I have looked at some of the nano doc's from this post, and some profs look so much fun to play.

I've been playing, retwinking and using my 170 keeper for almost as long as I've been playing AO, and when I saw the nano change doc for keeper's I was really stoked.

This document actually addresses very astutely nearly every one of keepers' serious flaws.

It is very, dishearteningly so, disappointing to me to review this document, and compare it with the changes that Genele posted recently.

I've paid FC somewhere in the range of $1200-1600 over the last 5 years or so waiting, patiently, for these nano changes to hit live.

Zero of the changes listed in this document, which, as I've said before, address all of keepers' serious current flaws, are reflected in part or whole in the most recent patch to test.

Does anyone else feel that the newest patch on test live is a far cry from the much more robust system overhaul that the previous dev team had put together?

[jorricane]

I put my original tl5 melee crat together with the intent of taking advantage of the "rebalance" perk line changes.

So yeah, I kind of got burned by expectations.

But as with the engine, I write it off as "pay for the game as it is, not as it is promised". Not that I am saying we should stop advocating for the changes that make sense, but I no longer do anything in AO with the expectation of any changes actually occurring.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The amount of effort FC puts into getting stuff to test is huge.

That is clear. We've seen it in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014.

If FC put 10% of the effort that has gone into getting new content on beta/test in getting small, good, quality patches to live I'm sure the game would be in a completely different state today.

I mean, just look at the original perk/nano docs.

That effort output to put those together was huge!

If they'd taken the effort that had gone into all those, and started small, making QoL changes that made a big difference for a small group of players but kept the balance relatively the same for the remainder they could have made huge progress towards the goal which was, at the time, a complete rebalance.

The biggest obstacle to getting the system/rebalance to live was that they tried the absurd tactic of trying to roll it all out at once. A colossal F-up from project management.

As I said years ago, the appropriate method to roll-out of content is to make gradual changes which buys time and allows players to adjust to the system/prof changes while FC works on other ones.

The idea is simple, really. Placate the playerbase with small changes that enhance playability of a small group of players, while working on other small changes that impact other groups/profs. We could be playing an entirely different AO right now which doesn't feel so static because it COULD have been changing the entire time.

Furthermore, people get so invested into NO CHANGE that if there hasn't been change for so long it's like a complete system shock (and will be now) whenever any change does finally arrive because there hasn't been any change for so goddamn long.

Gradual change>>>>>>>>>>>100% system overhaul.

[jorricane]

The amount of effort FC puts into getting stuff to test is huge.

That is clear. We've seen it in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014.

If FC put 10% of the effort that has gone into getting new content on beta/test in getting small, good, quality patches to live I'm sure the game would be in a completely different state today.

I mean, just look at the original perk/nano docs.

That effort output to put those together was huge!

If they'd taken the effort that had gone into all those, and started small, making QoL changes that made a big difference for a small group of players but kept the balance relatively the same for the remainder they could have made huge progress towards the goal which was, at the time, a complete rebalance.

The biggest obstacle to getting the system/rebalance to live was that they tried the absurd tactic of trying to roll it all out at once. A colossal F-up from project management.

As I said years ago, the appropriate method to roll-out of content is to make gradual changes which buys time and allows players to adjust to the system/prof changes while FC works on other ones.

The idea is simple, really. Placate the playerbase with small changes that enhance playability of a small group of players, while working on other small changes that impact other groups/profs. We could be playing an entirely different AO right now which doesn't feel so static because it COULD have been changing the entire time.

Furthermore, people get so invested into NO CHANGE that if there hasn't been change for so long it's like a complete system shock (and will be now) whenever any change does finally arrive because there hasn't been any change for so goddamn long.

Gradual change>>>>>>>>>>>100% system overhaul.

I totally agree, at least in profession changes - small doses are the way to do it. Previous teams have emphasized the big picture to the point where there was no way they could do it, something akin to a homeowner deciding to gut their entire house DIY style and never being able to finish rather than focusing on one room at a time.

However, I still think that AO needs a major overhaul in design philosophy and core mechanics in order to even continue for any meaningful length of time, and those need to happen either all at once or in very rapidfire succession in order to work, basically to shore up the foundation so that any renovation is possible.

I am not saying DOOOOM. DOOOOOOOOOOOM! However, realistically, there is no new life left in AO without an infusion of players and cash, and simply put, you won't see a huge influx of new players coupled with the retention thereof, Steam or no Steam, without some serious thought put into fixing some of the glaring flaws in the core of the game.

The prevailing suggestions on the forums these days are just fixes to make AO better for people who currently play AO. This is the same thing that has driven the game off the rails for most of it's life, rather than things that make AO an objectively better game. I think Michi actually understands this very well, since from what I have seen, the newest QoL changes actually can have an impact on new players in some ways (better levelling ranges in SL missions is HUGE), while still being hampered by lack of resources to actually improve the major stuff.

Anyway, I am fully behind these slow, minor changes, I just wish there were a more fleshed out roadmap for AO's future. Actually, just ANY roadmap for AO's future would be great.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Good points.

And you're right about small changes. Small changes never will garner BIG attention.

Hell, perhaps even big changes won't. But at LEAST it'll be easier to justify a bigger marketing budget on a game that's just had a thorough overhaul.

[Psikie]

The scope of the rebalance changes requires them to be all at once system wide. There are no "small" changes that can be made gradually over time with out totally unbalancing the unchanged stuff.

Case in point, new enfo health buff with heal reactivity. If that was the ONLY change put in game, enfos would be unkillable and wouldn't even need a doc a to keep them alive. Enf/crat/MA could probably 3 man TNH.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The scope of the rebalance changes requires them to be all at once system wide. There are no "small" changes that can be made gradually over time with out totally unbalancing the unchanged stuff.

That's complete hogwash.

Name any single change that you think would "unbalance" the "unchanged stuff"?

By definition, ANY change would CHANGE the balance.

Case in point, new enfo health buff with heal reactivity. If that was the ONLY change put in game, enfos would be unkillable and wouldn't even need a doc a to keep them alive. Enf/crat/MA could probably 3 man TNH.

Annnnnd?

Keep+crat can 2 man TNH.

Crat+doc can 2 man TNH.

Doc+Enf could probably 2 man TNH.

Why are we talking about TNH?

On beta, I levelled a MA with my mate levelling an enforcer. Is that taboo on live?

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think an enforcer with the beta changes would be unkillable?

FYI, endgame doctor heals didn't change on beta, so whatever your notion of unkillable is on live due to having high healing potential based on reactivity.... I hate to break it to you, but that's the point.

[jorricane]

As long as they are careful which changes are done at which times, I don't think anything I've looked at so far would destroy...*cough* balance... in AO.

There are probably some oddballs that combined with other oddballs that could be exploited for some crazy results, but the slow introduction of these changes is in no way a bad thing.

[Awikun]

For me the worst part that need rebalancing is low level pvp...
Just make most OSBuffs level locked.
I am fed up with so called low level twinks that twink highest possible amount of NCU to acumulate buffs like behe, rrfe, h&q etc. before going to hit any towers (which they destroy within several seconds)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

For me the worst part that need rebalancing is low level pvp...
Just make most OSBuffs level locked.
I am fed up with so called low level twinks that twink highest possible amount of NCU to acumulate buffs like behe, rrfe, h&q etc. before going to hit any towers (which they destroy within several seconds)

I can't recall but I thought that aspect was dealt with in Beta by level locking buffs?

[jorricane]

For me the worst part that need rebalancing is low level pvp...
Just make most OSBuffs level locked.
I am fed up with so called low level twinks that twink highest possible amount of NCU to acumulate buffs like behe, rrfe, h&q etc. before going to hit any towers (which they destroy within several seconds)

Level locked, or level scaling, either would work IMO.

[Psikie]

That's complete hogwash.

Name any single change that you think would "unbalance" the "unchanged stuff"?

<SNIP>

Keep+crat can 2 man TNH.

Crat+doc can 2 man TNH.

Doc+Enf could probably 2 man TNH.

Why are we talking about TNH?

Due to the holiday season i'll try not to be rude in response to your snark here.

First lets get something clear, when I make posts I primarily am thinking about the average player which YOU are not. By avg I mean not full alphas, not ql 300 combined, and certainly not YOUR definition of endgame setup.

The avg player can not 2 man TNH. Comprendeh so far?

Now just using the enfo as an example, IF the new essence was the only change put into game with heal reactivity, it would unbalance a lot of pvm encounters for the avg player. With no need for a doc because advy/ma heals are boosted, unkillable because nano costs of heals are not adjusted like they would be with 18.7 also.

Now if you did have a doc without the nano cost adjustment that can forever spam heals currently enough to solo LoTV they could actually not even use their top heals to keep enfo with heal reactivity alive FOREVER because they wouldn't run out of nano.

So given time, and being unkillable do the logic conclusion as to what is possible. That would be possible for avg players to 2-3 man instances instead of just ultra twinks. THATS my point.

Need another example? How about MP's getting shields as dual wieldable? I'd love that right now if that was the only change. Hello grandmaster pvp title!

Want another? How about just giving Enfo's another stun for their alpha as the only change?

For all your number crunching, sometimes you can't see the forest through the trees. You see things from a different perspective as an ultra twinker and pvp'r. I run an org and play with "new to the game" players on a daily basis. So I post on the forums and advocate for the little guys because I see them all the time. I don't just live in the 220 end game twink pvp bubble like some of the folks on these forums.

When I speak of balance Im not just thinking 220 endgame im thinking about how some of those changes effect new lvl 1 players. The heal reactivity would definitely not do any favors to new docs who could get spoiled on not keeping current heals up to date while leveling because the enfo is getting better effect from the lower heals. What good is that as a lesson for a doctors first 50-150 lvls only to get that rug snatched out from under them once nano cost changes go into effect? Possibly in another patch by time they reach Adonis and have to really heal the tank?

[Wakizaka]

The avg player can not 2 man TNH. Comprendeh so far?

2 players roughly 220/20/60 in ql250~ql270 symbs, mixture of ofab/db/beast armour could duo TNH.
Decade old content is certainly not that hard.

[geturmoney]

2 players roughly 220/20/60 in ql250~ql270 symbs, mixture of ofab/db/beast armour could duo TNH.
Decade old content is certainly not that hard.

i highly doubt that 2 non-dual logged mediocre players can pull that off. the only possible combination would be crat(because you need calms)+doc(cuz you need heal).
theoretically youre right, waki, 2 avg player could kill tnh. however practically 2 random avg player cant even kill portal boss1.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Psikie, you may be able to outheal TNH with a doctor and advy but that's not the issue. The issue is you not wanting to change your preconceived views on what works.

Somehow, in your psyche, you have placed a value on what works, and any change to that will result in a chance that you may have to deal with an unknown.

There are many quotes about change, but this is one of my favourites:

All great changes are preceded by chaos. - Deepak Chopra

It's not particularly profound, but you realize that fear of chaos, and being unwilling to step into chaos will leave us in the same position we've been in for the last 10 years?

[jorricane]

Psikie, you may be able to outheal TNH with a doctor and advy but that's not the issue. The issue is you not wanting to change your preconceived views on what works.

Somehow, in your psyche, you have placed a value on what works, and any change to that will result in a chance that you may have to deal with an unknown.

There are many quotes about change, but this is one of my favourites:

All great changes are preceded by chaos. - Deepak Chopra

It's not particularly profound, but you realize that fear of chaos, and being unwilling to step into chaos will leave us in the same position we've been in for the last 10 years?

To be fair, Psikie is correct that it would cause some unbalance.

However, the game is so out of whack when you compare some content to current power levels, and just general balance, a few patch cycles of some wacka$$ gameplay wouldn't really impact the overall game all that much. And just because 2 average players could duo TBH, I don't think we'd see a huge surge in people duo'ing TBH - the people who would bother to farm high end mobs already farm high end mobs. Making is easier is the same as leaving it the way it is.

If we were dealing with 2006 population numbers, imbalances could (and did) really skew things, but as it is right now, the same people who take advantage of old broken mechanics will take advantage of new broken mechanics, and the people who play AO straight (are there any of those left?) will still play it straight. And, like I said, if the game gets absurdly easy for several patch cycles, so be it, as long as once the balance is done, encounters and mobs are retuned to realistic difficulty.

[DigitalBath]

This branch of the discussion is interesting in a few ways.

Two inexperienced (in the matter of duo'ing tnh) 220/30 non-geared people can join raid bots to get a feel for the fight.

The same two people playing most of the duos mentioned above or something with an equivalent toolset with some more experience and "average" gear.. let's say DB armor and betas apart from ear/leg which will be lower symbs, since anyone can get that with ease nowadays.. can do tnh with some wipes involved at first.

Experience is built up after said wipes and things pick up from there.

AO's content is mostly easy tank/spank stuff. Saying the "avg player" cannot duo tnh depends on what you see as the average player. Are we talking only 220/30/50+'s? If so, it's definitely doable. If we're including lower levels we're also being a bit unreasonable.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I honestly don't understand the significance of this. Who cares if PVM "balance" is easier/harder for a bit?

The reality is that AO will continue to be a 10 year old game, with 4-10 year old content dominating 99% of gameplay, UNLESS patches start rolling in and replacing some of the underlying assumptions/mechanics that people have grown so accustomed to that they find more confidence in AO than they do in the relationships with their wives.

Lets blow that sh*t open, and Lets embrace the possibility that upsetting the status quo might, MIGHT result in a new challenge for a little while.

Seriously, when was the last time you had a challenge in AO?

[jorricane]

I honestly don't understand the significance of this. Who cares if PVM "balance" is easier/harder for a bit?

The reality is that AO will continue to be a 10 year old game, with 4-10 year old content dominating 99% of gameplay, UNLESS patches start rolling in and replacing some of the underlying assumptions/mechanics that people have grown so accustomed to that they find more confidence in AO than they do in the relationships with their wives.

Lets blow that sh*t open, and Lets embrace the possibility that upsetting the status quo might, MIGHT result in a new challenge for a little while.

Seriously, when was the last time you had a challenge in AO?

Basically exactly what I was trying to get at.

Who care if it's unbalanced? It's already stupidly unbalanced. AO has reached the point where change purely for the sake of change can me nothing BUT an improvement.

It's stale and stagnant. If the changes get anyone thinking for more than two seconds about something, it's good, whether its a feasible and reasonable change or not.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

AO has reached the point where change purely for the sake of change can me nothing BUT an improvement.

It's stale and stagnant. If the changes get anyone thinking for more than two seconds about something, it's good, whether its a feasible and reasonable change or not.

Exactly my feeling.