What happend?

[Saetos]

I do, though admittedly low level. I also had one who got to low TL6 before I quit, but I deleted quite a few of my characters upon coming back, for a fresh start. But trust me, I have indeed played Keepers before.

[Saetos]

Why is that silly, have you seen how marginal their bonuses are? Your "interesting element" is the only thing truly silly, people don't want keepers in their team as is why would you think they'd want more than one lol, especially for aruas that have negligible bonuses.

Yes, I realize the auras don't really buff or regenerate a lot. But the solution isn't "Bah, whatever, now every Keeper gets everything and then there's no point to having multiple Keepers!" The solution is to make the bonuses more relevant across all levels, taking into account that a Keeper will only be able to pick and chiose, and to adjust accordingly.

[Cratertina]

Buff keepas nou.

Combined auras idea is good' as is overall buffing aura stats, by roughly 3x. Just give keeper aura 1 point more AAO than crat has... boom instant pvp success.

[DarkerThanBlack]

Yes, I realize the auras don't really buff or regenerate a lot. But the solution isn't "Bah, whatever, now every Keeper gets everything and then there's no point to having multiple Keepers!" The solution is to make the bonuses more relevant across all levels, taking into account that a Keeper will only be able to pick and chiose, and to adjust accordingly.

The solution wasn't "bah, whatever, now every keeper gets everything". The problem is that keepers don't have a lot and don't offer the team a lot, by merging auras they'd actually bring more utility to their teams. I'm more fond of that idea than straight up buffing existing auras which wouldn't fix anything because the same problem would remain, 3 auras active and 4 that serve absolutely no purpose.

Edit: btw playing a keeper to low tl6 and intimately knowing the profession after playing it at 220 for 8 years are two completely different worlds.

[Saetos]

Thing is, Keepers are already pretty darn solid soloers with what they have now - smashing all their auras together would be freaking insane. Mitigating two normal attacks, gaining a small chunk of AAD to make attacks miss (so they don't hit your Ward shield), and then all damage you DO finally take reduced by 6%... ugh. If you're going to buff any of the auras buff the deroot and desnare so that they tick more than once a century, and the nanoregen so it isn't worse than what a 195 Trader can do, at 220. But don't smash them together.

[Xootch]

has any of you read the rebalance stuff? from what i can tell, keepers will be #@%()@ op. so why the argument?

[Le-Quack]

Thing is, Keepers are already pretty darn solid soloers with what they have now - smashing all their auras together would be freaking insane. Mitigating two normal attacks, gaining a small chunk of AAD to make attacks miss (so they don't hit your Ward shield), and then all damage you DO finally take reduced by 6%... ugh. If you're going to buff any of the auras buff the deroot and desnare so that they tick more than once a century, and the nanoregen so it isn't worse than what a 195 Trader can do, at 220. But don't smash them together.

saetos dont have a keep, but he used to. learn from him noob
he learnt keepers and knows em just from watching em, why he never needed a tl 7 keep becose he already knew evrything about their toolset for pvm and pvp.

btw i know allot about war, i seen war on tv and i am about to bring up a solution for world peace.

[Saetos]

It's a good thing you can just throw together 220s on Testlive then ain't it

Could near AFK solo Tarasque on a 220 Keeper I had there. But man, wouldn't it be nice if I also had Imminence of Extermination AND Barrier of the Righteous on top of my double Ward, then I wouldn't even have to play

[DarkerThanBlack]

It's a good thing you can just throw together 220s on Testlive then ain't it

Could near AFK solo Tarasque on a 220 Keeper I had there. But man, wouldn't it be nice if I also had Imminence of Extermination AND Barrier of the Righteous on top of my double Ward, then I wouldn't even have to play

Lmfao! AFK killing a lowbie mob that any 220 can solo without breaking a sweat is no argument regarding a profession's viability in actual endgame content, pvm or pvp. Stop trolling.

[Le-Quack]

lol saetos ftw.
your knowledge is so big.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Saetos is right.

We've discussed this several times, there's little value to just adding all keeper auras together... PVM wise, I don't even want to discuss it, it's just stupid OP, so since we're talking PVP, I'll give my 2c.

First of all, you cannot have a toon go all out defence BUT still have all out offense it's a cornerstone of AO mechanics, that, if you gear for offense you open yourself up slightly defensively (notably our LE research huds+alb huds+off/def merit boards+rings of power just as some obvious examples). So why would you think that FC would suddenly go back on all of the balancing mechanics that they've worked so hard for?

If you are not following me, let me explain one specific example of this.

Lets take the add dmg vs enervate line clash.

Yes - this one is a royal pain and sometimes I wish it weren't the way it is, but it actually does make sense in some ways. Here's why, when you have an extra 150 add dmg running, your entire alpha will do 1800 more damage than without that 150 add dmg buff running. That 1800 damage equates to getting close to a kill, vs only significantly damaging someone. Now, the keeper with enervate running has a better chance to escape and come back in 60s when his perks are back up than the keeper who has 150 add dmg running. The keeper who has 150 add dmg running will have a greater risk of attempting to flee since he has less snare/root resist, but makes up for it with slightly greater kill power.

So what you're asking for is not only greater kill power, but better escape potential WITH greater kill power.

The same goes for defence, only, you're asking for blockers, AND reflects, AND enhanced defence AND enhanced offense.

I mean, I know this is captain obvious stuff, but what you're failing to recognize here is that this stuff makes a substantial difference. Keeper's already have some pretty ballsy defence. A well played keeper can soak a buttload of damage, significantly boost his teammates play, put significant pressure on an opponent, support his team with buffs and debuffs, heal in a pinch and generally do a hell of a lot of good.

Yes, keeper's need "something" but your argument to just give all auras their own line so they are all buffable at once is a cheap trick that won't really do it. You'll be crying that it wasn't enough a month after you get it.


Imo, Keeper's don't need much. here's what I think they need, some of which has already been mentioned:

1. HM line needs lower checks (mentioned before)
2. Dodge+duck brought up to same level as evade close across the board
3. enervate ticks way faster - i.e. ticks every second at the appropriate rate to remove snares/roots
4. lowered nanoskill costs on all endgame nanos, with CLEAR value on why sets should be able to cast them without swaps (i.e. 15-25s aura boosts like in original nano docs)
5. ward boosted throughout entire level range
6. reflect boosted throughout entire level range
7. 10s self add damage boost of 220@level 220 on successfully landed wrath

[DarkerThanBlack]

Saetos is right.

Ofc the knowledge of someone who casualed his way to low tl6 and never got to actually play the game at endgame level to learn the profession is undeniable.

We've discussed this several times, there's little value to just adding all keeper auras together... PVM wise, I don't even want to discuss it, it's just stupid OP

Wait, what? 280 nano every 10 seconds is OP in pvm? Root/snare resist on top of add dmg is OP in pvm? 210 AAD against mobs with 5k+ attack rating and 6% reflect against 2-10k hits is OP?

so since we're talking PVP, I'll give my 2c. First of all, you cannot have a toon go all out defence BUT still have all out offense it's a cornerstone of AO mechanics, that, if you gear for offense you open yourself up slightly defensively (notably our LE research huds+alb huds+off/def merit boards+rings of power just as some obvious examples). So why would you think that FC would suddenly go back on all of the balancing mechanics that they've worked so hard for?

First of all, players have been going all out defense while retaining full out offensive capability forever. >>>Click here to find out how.<<< Now that we've determined it's not a profession issue lets continue.
Secondly, you yourself said there's little value to just adding keeper auras together which is true but at least it's something. It's also contradicting with your previous part I quoted where you claimed it would somehow turn keepers into full defensive killing machines (make up your mind, atm it just looks like you're arguing with me just for the sake of disagreeing). Small steps is how you balance professions the correct way. And yes I would love to see FC ditch their idea of introducing hundreds of profession changes with a single patch. Especially knowing FC and their lack of knowledge of this game I'm not exactly expecting good things to come of it.

If you are not following me, let me explain one specific example of this.

Lets take the add dmg vs enervate line clash.

Yes - this one is a royal pain and sometimes I wish it weren't the way it is, but it actually does make sense in some ways. Here's why, when you have an extra 150 add dmg running, your entire alpha will do 1800 more damage than without that 150 add dmg buff running. That 1800 damage equates to getting close to a kill, vs only significantly damaging someone. Now, the keeper with enervate running has a better chance to escape and come back in 60s when his perks are back up than the keeper who has 150 add dmg running. The keeper who has 150 add dmg running will have a greater risk of attempting to flee since he has less snare/root resist, but makes up for it with slightly greater kill power.

Several mistakes you made here. First of all I don't know how you got to 1800 damage, then again when you look at it 1800 damage endgame is nothing. But back to reality. 150 add dmg translates to 75 add dmg since damage is, as we all know (or not), halved in pvp. In order for 150 add dmg to do 1800 bonus damage in pvp your target would have to have 0 ACs, 0 reflect and get hit 24 times. I'm guessing you estimated a keeper alpha is 12 hits (1800/150), which reduced by ACs alone is less than half of what you proposed. Add reflects (rrfe most common) to the equation and you have an alpha boost of some 500 damage. Truly devastating.

So what you're asking for is not only greater kill power, but better escape potential WITH greater kill power.

Yes, keepers most definitely need improvements in both regards. Clumping auras of the same nanoline together would only provide small bonuses far from making the profession overpowered.

The same goes for defence, only, you're asking for blockers, AND reflects, AND enhanced defence AND enhanced offense.

2 basic attack blockers have the same stopping power as enf/nt layers buff which we all know aren't that spectacular either. 6% reflect isn't a big deal, even adventurers which have been THE top pvp profession since SL have a 4% reflect buff that I don't remember seeing anyone complain about. But 6% on a keeper, a profession with significantly less damage, healing, evades and cc mitigation is a problem... how exactly? As for enhanced offense we've already covered that part.

I mean, I know this is captain obvious stuff, but what you're failing to recognize here is that this stuff makes a substantial difference. Keeper's already have some pretty ballsy defence. A well played keeper can soak a buttload of damage, significantly boost his teammates play, put significant pressure on an opponent, support his team with buffs and debuffs, heal in a pinch and generally do a hell of a lot of good.

More like captain clueless stuff. All your theorycraft is based around ideal situations. In the "real" pvp world a keeper's defense can be shattered in seconds. Agent AS or fixer/soldier specials will rip through bio cocoon in an instant, not only that but keepers are basically defenseless against ranged professions, crowd control and various crippling debuffs (such as UBT). Keeper defense consists of cocoon, a 20s uptime/120s downtime 32% reflect buff and an 8k heal with 2 minute cooldown, and if you build for it decent static evades against gimp melees (other endgame melees will perk you regardless). I don't know why there's widespread belief that keepers have good def when they're in fact one of the easiest professions to kill lol. I guess you haven't done much pvp recently but rely on gossip that stuck around since 2004.

Yes, keeper's need "something" but your argument to just give all auras their own line so they are all buffable at once is a cheap trick that won't really do it. You'll be crying that it wasn't enough a month after you get it.

Nobody said it's the be all end all change for keepers, but a small and very welcome step. What's the point in having nanos that can never be used?

[Le-Quack]

i agree with dark, there is absolut no way i can find a keep overpowerd or near to be 100% balanced even to stack auras.
you can already stack auras before duels for example and it doesnt rly do much, you will still loose more than you win, but yes your chanses is a little better.
to stack em you cast reflect and delete aura, then cast aad and delete aura and then in the end cast blocker and accept duel, then you have auras running for 2-3 mins wich is longer than a avrege duel actualy last.
i done this many times but i actualy stopped doing it becose i didnt realy notice much diffrence and it was annoying to buff evrytime i wanted to duel.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Ofc the knowledge of someone who casualed his way to low tl6 and never got to actually play the game at endgame level to learn the profession is undeniable.


Wait, what? 280 nano every 10 seconds is OP in pvm? Root/snare resist on top of add dmg is OP in pvm? 210 AAD against mobs with 5k+ attack rating and 6% reflect against 2-10k hits is OP?


First of all, players have been going all out defense while retaining full out offensive capability forever. >>>Click here to find out how.<<< Now that we've determined it's not a profession issue lets continue.
Secondly, you yourself said there's little value to just adding keeper auras together which is true but at least it's something. It's also contradicting with your previous part I quoted where you claimed it would somehow turn keepers into full defensive killing machines (make up your mind, atm it just looks like you're arguing with me just for the sake of disagreeing). Small steps is how you balance professions the correct way. And yes I would love to see FC ditch their idea of introducing hundreds of profession changes with a single patch. Especially knowing FC and their lack of knowledge of this game I'm not exactly expecting good things to come of it.


Several mistakes you made here. First of all I don't know how you got to 1800 damage, then again when you look at it 1800 damage endgame is nothing. But back to reality. 150 add dmg translates to 75 add dmg since damage is, as we all know (or not), halved in pvp. In order for 150 add dmg to do 1800 bonus damage in pvp your target would have to have 0 ACs, 0 reflect and get hit 24 times. I'm guessing you estimated a keeper alpha is 12 hits (1800/150), which reduced by ACs alone is less than half of what you proposed. Add reflects (rrfe most common) to the equation and you have an alpha boost of some 500 damage. Truly devastating.


Yes, keepers most definitely need improvements in both regards. Clumping auras of the same nanoline together would only provide small bonuses far from making the profession overpowered.


2 basic attack blockers have the same stopping power as enf/nt layers buff which we all know aren't that spectacular either. 6% reflect isn't a big deal, even adventurers which have been THE top pvp profession since SL have a 4% reflect buff that I don't remember seeing anyone complain about. But 6% on a keeper, a profession with significantly less damage, healing, evades and cc mitigation is a problem... how exactly? As for enhanced offense we've already covered that part.


More like captain clueless stuff. All your theorycraft is based around ideal situations. In the "real" pvp world a keeper's defense can be shattered in seconds. Agent AS or fixer/soldier specials will rip through bio cocoon in an instant, not only that but keepers are basically defenseless against ranged professions, crowd control and various crippling debuffs (such as UBT). Keeper defense consists of cocoon, a 20s uptime/120s downtime 32% reflect buff and an 8k heal with 2 minute cooldown, and if you build for it decent static evades against gimp melees (other endgame melees will perk you regardless). I don't know why there's widespread belief that keepers have good def when they're in fact one of the easiest professions to kill lol. I guess you haven't done much pvp recently but rely on gossip that stuck around since 2004.


Nobody said it's the be all end all change for keepers, but a small and very welcome step. What's the point in having nanos that can never be used?

Sounds like you don't know how to play keeper.

At least in 18.7.0.20 you got ward stacking with immi. imo thats just going to make PVM easier and not do a whole lot for PVP.. but it is something.

Anyone who says keeper is one of the "easiest" profs to kill, and says "one" AS from agent or FA from soldier rips cocoon...
Bro, you got mad skills in crying, but I suggest learning how to play keeper. I'm not going to tell you how to do it because that's an insult to your capability, but I'll give you a hint: try stacking your defences.

[Poko]

Sounds like you don't know how to play keeper.

At least in 18.7.0.20 you got ward stacking with immi. imo thats just going to make PVM easier and not do a whole lot for PVP.. but it is something.

Anyone who says keeper is one of the "easiest" profs to kill, and says "one" AS from agent or FA from soldier rips cocoon...
Bro, you got mad skills in crying, but I suggest learning how to play keeper. I'm not going to tell you how to do it because that's an insult to your capability, but I'll give you a hint: try stacking your defences.

Well..will do alot in pvm, but keepers have gotten a crapton of stuff for pvp..from Root/snare break, Stun nano, Deflect, stacking auras, more hp/evades (20 is better than nothing), and 30 extra ar, with perk checks going to 90_95%. Im gonna be quite scared of a keeper in pvp..seeing as how op some of them already are hehe

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Well..will do alot in pvm, but keepers have gotten a crapton of stuff for pvp..from Root/snare break, Stun nano, Deflect, stacking auras, more hp/evades (20 is better than nothing), and 30 extra ar, with perk checks going to 90_95%. Im gonna be quite scared of a keeper in pvp..seeing as how op some of them already are hehe

ya that's right actually, there's a lot of tools added for keepers in 18.7 already...

It'll be interesting to see how the melee energy AR stacks up against 2HE.

I got a feeling 2HE should be 3500-3700ish with spike AR (utilizing swaps/procs) to around 3900 while melee energy hovers around 3100-3300 but that's just speculation.

I'm also excited to see what perk actions will go into the cyber samurai or whatever it's called, line.

[Tehevolz]

Sounds like you don't know how to play keeper.


Anyone who says keeper is one of the "easiest" profs to kill, and says "one" AS from agent or FA from soldier rips cocoon....

Do you play keeper?

This happens a lot.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Do you play keeper?

This happens a lot.

so?

It doesn't matter if it happens a lot... people get killed a lot by commutable diseases in Africa.... because they don't wash their hands. Doesn't mean you need to die of it.

without being snarky, I'll just say that if you don't want your coon to disappear in one hit... DON'T LET IT.

And maybe even more importantly, if one of your defences eats an entire capping hit... you've just bought yourself 11.5ish seconds in the fight, but probably closer to 20s since you got to consider all the recharge/healing you can do in that period divided by the damage rate and for soldier the reload time as well.

I'm not saying keeper vs soldier is an easy fight - soldiers have ALWAYS been the hardcounter for keepers. If the OP is whining about the hardcounter - toughen up princess.

As for agents, try these:
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=265453
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267913
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=223028


In open PVP, ya, you'll have problems, Agent is a handful.. but 18.7 also has tools to deal with gap closing

[Tehevolz]

Arguing with a paper pvper is a waste of time, coon gets destroyed in 1 hit more than you would believe...just telling you facts.

[Aiken]

He doesn't like facts if he disagrees with them tho, we're all aware of this by now.