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Thread: Anarchy Online, Funcom and the Potential Future of the IP

  1. #21
    Some basic history:
    Ogre was announced in 2008 (maybe late 2007). (version 1.6) started first with 1.4 with allot of issues, like texture and shader interpretation

    Engine was dished in 2009 for Dreamengine (there was also issue with amount of bones for animation not working )

    Beta client was "ready" (In doubt) in 2014


    Expansions:
    The Notum Wars (2002)
    The Shadowlands (2003)
    Alien Invasion (2004)
    Lost Eden (2006)
    The Legacy of the Xan (2009)
    Last edited by ByLogic; Aug 5th, 2017 at 13:41:23.

  2. #22
    I will make this short. This thread was started by me, based on a doc, written by me because I cared about AO and the community which I was a part of for over a decade. On occasion I will admit that I was an a-hole in-game and on the forums. However I did learn that baiting people was a low blow (even if camouflaged as a "point") and that taking someone else's bait only encouraged the other side to continue his/her negative stance.

    So I'd like to ask whom it may concern. Be civil. Disagreements will happen on most discussions, there is no need for outright name calling, camouflaged bait, or grand standing. There is always someone who know less than you, and someone who knows more than you. I would appreciate if a point was made based on fact, on what YOU know based on your life experience, and not make assumptions on the experiences of someone else's life... since you are living your life, and not theirs.

    God bless you all.
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  3. #23
    Vhax, hi boss, I apologize for not knowing your history with AO better, but I take it that you're a programmer and you have worked at Funcom for a while, possibly even on implementing the new engine? If so, I'm just curious, where do you work now? Don't take this the wrong way, I'm asking because I always thought the Funcom's programmers are [of poor quality] (well, to be honest, I thought all their departments except Art maybe are [of poor quality]) and would like to know if I was right. I mean I'm sure you lacked experience and education when you joined them, but maybe you're really good and eventually landed at a serious company. Thanx, boss!
    Last edited by Anarrina; Sep 13th, 2017 at 23:42:44. Reason: Removed obscenities

  4. #24
    Its going to be a very strange thread if everything is going to be considered as bait. When you have a discussion you leave out unanswered parts for the person to answer or fill in the blanks. Thats why we have "quotes" and not just speaking out in the blue. Now what is really no point is to patronize every single word a person saying and ignoring the facts pointed out. Also if you correct another person this is not considered as a bait but as Vhab said so correctly "knowledge is goal" . For me its facts and knowledge that counts, i have no other reason to post on a forum. If some one can't handle irony, then better stay of any public forums. For the most part i see your point Windguared and i know you only mean the best, and i totally agree that we should all sty civil. Comments like "stop posting" is not part of this, (not saying i am innocent, but i dont go that far with words). If you can't argue don't go personal is my tip (i have to much bad experience on this forum with that). If people get emotional because of something said on a forum then its really time to sty of the net.
    Last edited by ByLogic; Aug 5th, 2017 at 16:50:56.

  5. #25
    Just be civil guys, that is all I'm asking. And do please continue the discussion, it is very interesting to learn things that I had no idea about.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kesher View Post
    Vhax, hi boss, I apologize for not knowing your history with AO better, but I take it that you're a programmer and you have worked at Funcom for a while, possibly even on implementing the new engine? If so, I'm just curious, where do you work now? Don't take this the wrong way, I'm asking because I always thought the Funcom's programmers are shiiit (well, to be honest, I thought all their departments except Art maybe are shiiit) and would like to know if I was right. I mean I'm sure you lacked experience and education when you joined them, but maybe you're really good and eventually landed at a serious company. Thanx, boss!
    Well I'm not him obviously but if you have to work on code some other guys wrote more then 10 years ago you can be the best programmer the world has ever seen and you will probably suck anyway. for a time at least.
    There probably will be spaghetti code in there with no comment whatsoever.. so you will sit before the screen and think "what is this doing"/"why is this even working" etc pp. Its not much fun and every programmer in the world will probably tell you that he would prefer to do it new rather then to maintain code someone wrote a decade ago.
    I wouldn't doubt the qualification of the programmers on ao out of principle. I wouldn't want their job must have been hell..
    Behoernchen - Adventurer - SEMPER FIDELIS

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Behoernchen View Post
    Well I'm not him obviously but if you have to work on code some other guys wrote more then 10 years ago you can be the best programmer the world has ever seen and you will probably suck anyway. for a time at least.
    There probably will be spaghetti code in there with no comment whatsoever.. so you will sit before the screen and think "what is this doing"/"why is this even working" etc pp. Its not much fun and every programmer in the world will probably tell you that he would prefer to do it new rather then to maintain code someone wrote a decade ago.
    I wouldn't doubt the qualification of the programmers on ao out of principle. I wouldn't want their job must have been hell..
    Are you a programmer? You don't sound like one. I'm pretty sure you aren't. You sound like someone who has heard some mediocre programmers whine and formed an opinion based soley on them. Let me tell you something. We're talking about a port to another engine which took, what, 7 years? I'm not a programmer either, but my is. She was a lead programmer for several Activision ports, AAA games ports. My could've ported this game in 1-2 years, by herbitchyself. She worked with engines that were created in 2001 and had no problems. Code is not perishable, if it's good, it's good. Spaghetti, no documentation, who cares, if you're a good programmer, you're a good programmer and not a current FC programmer. And by the quality of the overall AO vanilla, I'm guessing that the code was good enough. The reason why this port took so long was because years later after real programmers, real artists, real game designers created this game, some fake GDs, some impostors like Means, hired poopy, unexperienced and probably uneducated programmers, which couldn't handle this port. But sure, let's all believe programming is some sort of magic, and that AO's code was out of tune, that magician programmers were unable to tap in to it. Also, let's have Vhax tell us where he works now.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Jan 28th, 2018 at 23:00:58. Reason: edited for obesenities

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kesher View Post
    Are you a programmer? You don't sound like one. I'm pretty sure you aren't. You sound like someone who has heard some mediocre programmers whine and formed an opinion based soley on them. Let me tell you something. We're talking about a port to another engine which took, what, 7 years? I'm not a programmer either, but my is. She was a lead programmer for several Activision ports, AAA games ports. My could've ported this game in 1-2 years, by herbitchyself. She worked with engines that were created in 2001 and had no problems. Code is not perishable, if it's good, it's good. Spaghetti, no documentation, who cares, if you're a good programmer, you're a good programmer and not a current FC programmer. And by the quality of the overall AO vanilla, I'm guessing that the code was good enough. The reason why this port took so long was because years later after real programmers, real artists, real game designers created this game, some fake GDs, some impostors like Means, hired poopy, unexperienced and probably uneducated programmers, which couldn't handle this port. But sure, let's all believe programming is some sort of magic, and that AO's code was out o tune, that magician programmers were unable to tap in to it. Let's have Vhax tel us how it really was, we are all amateurs.
    You seem like a very pleasant person.

    Keep in mind that AO only came out in 2001, development started in 1995. And that it originally was intended to look like this. Since you yourself claim you're not a programmer, maybe you should ask your lady if there would be any problems she might encounter in the code of a game from over 20 years ago that looked like that, then show her how it looks now, and porting it from DX7 to DX9. Something tells me she won't be as condescending as you are.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Jan 28th, 2018 at 23:01:31. Reason: edited quoted material

  9. #29
    Again, very relevant info you have there, sure, the port must be very complicated because the game was different in the original concepts from what has been actually developed, makes total sense. I've asked my before posting, she said "less than a year", I wrote 1-2 years to be sure. )

    But you see, she's one of those reeeeeal programmers. She actually studied programming with professors, not on youtube, got a real programming job, and then got better at it. She wasn't picked up from a forum, she went to a job interview, got it, went through a trial period, then proved she was good, then became lead programmer. For FC and for you guys, real programmers are like White Walkers in GoT, you don't believe they exist because you've never seen one, but trust me, they're real.

    I know it's difficult to accept you've been taken for fools by a bunch of incompetents, keep finding excuses for them.

    And yes, I am a very pleasant person, bashing FC and its employees doesn't count.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Jan 28th, 2018 at 23:03:05.

  10. #30
    1. "But you see, she's one of those reeeeeal programmers. She actually studied programming, got a real programming job and got good at it." Well me too...
    2. It is completey irrelavant in what timeframe she can do it now. You know why? Because she has years of experience on the job. The people who worked on it didn't. Your would have had a hard time with that too at the start of her career. But yeah only she got good and all who worked or are working at fc are idiots.
    3. So if you want to blame someone blame fc managers and not the programmers.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Jan 28th, 2018 at 23:02:04. Reason: edited for obscenities
    Behoernchen - Adventurer - SEMPER FIDELIS

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Behoernchen View Post
    2. It is completey irrelavant in what timeframe she can do it now. You know why? Because she has years of experience on the job. The people who worked on it didn't. Your would have had a hard time with that too at the start of her career. But yeah only she got good and all who worked or are working at fc are idiots.
    3. So if you want to blame someone blame fc managers and not the programmers.
    Well, that was my point, that they should've assigned someone experienced to do the port, not nubs that spend 7 years for a beta, that the port was not as difficult as we were misslead to believe for years or, for some, to this day. Don't worry, I blame the game directors in the first place, what nub programmer wouldn't have accepted working on the game they loved, I'm not blaming them. And maybe vhax wasn't a nub in the first place, who knows? Even if he was, maybe he did excellent on the application tests and someone saw his potential through his lack of experience. So what I'm interested in is where does he work now.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Jan 28th, 2018 at 23:02:15.

  12. #32
    In that case we are probably on the same side
    I just couldn't let your sentence "I'm asking because I always thought the Funcom's programmers are shiiit " stand without us knowing much about the actual code base they had to deal with.

    I only said my parts because of what vhax said.
    "It also didn't help nobody had done a deep dive into AO's rendering internals in half a decade at that point.
    The original AO devs are a wonderful mix of brilliant and insane. They pulled off amazing feats with the resources they had.
    Unfortunately many of these amazing feats made porting a ton more difficult."

    That doesn't sound to me like good, easy changeable code one bit. More like something that is hell to rewrite or change without breaking something else along the line.
    Behoernchen - Adventurer - SEMPER FIDELIS

  13. #33
    Allot of people seems to mix game with game render engine. They are not really the same thing. A game is a mix of logic structure, mechanics (like physics) and windows rendering output. Anarchy Online is based on c++ almost at the same time World of Warcraft was build (also on c++) September 2001.. Look at at wow today, the rendering has changed, but the core structure is almost the same. Thats why other game engine have separation from logic code and renderingpipline. The fact that Ao was built on c++ back in does days, does not mean drawback for what i can be it today. The problem is the lack of building skill with the newer developers.

    Example, when you work on the engine it self, you work with windows API functionality, shaders, memory management etc.
    When you work with the game it self, its basically logic and structure. Example skill class, item class. buff class. The engine deals
    with displaying things and physics. And then you have the network socket code. etc etc.

    And the fact the Anarchy had big expansions in the passed, means that the prime code structure is well designed. Else it would be
    a nightmare to make any type of scale. Yes there been some technical limits with the database size (outsourced license) but the core of Anarchy Online might just be in a very good shape (minus the new implemented mess)..

    I tried to draw out information from Vhab i the passed about what types of code pattern that was been used without success. But
    i am pretty sure, there are Factory instantiateon classes (to example create objects based on a template, example summoning a pet/monsters.. Abstract class for inheritance logic. etc. but other than that i just have to guess. If there really is no use of patterns
    in the game code, then it would be a real mess.
    Last edited by ByLogic; Aug 9th, 2017 at 12:58:33.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kesher View Post
    Again, very relevant info you have there, sure, the port must be very complicated because the game was different in the original concepts from what has been actually developed, makes total sense. I've asked my before posting, she said "less than a year", I wrote 1-2 years to be sure. )

    But you see, she's one of those reeeeeal programmers. She actually studied programming with professors, not on youtube, got a real programming job, and then got better at it. She wasn't picked up from a forum, she went to a job interview, got it, went through a trial period, then proved she was good, then became lead programmer. For FC and for you guys, real programmers are like White Walkers in GoT, you don't believe they exist because you've never seen one, but trust me, they're real.
    "Again"? I've never spoken to you. Do you believe the original concepts are just there because their artists like to draw and model things? The game was being developed to look like that. Then it changed directions to look like what we have now. Either they scrapped all the code from the original concept or there is/was still some code in there from over 20 years ago.

    Also, this doesn't sound like she's a "real programmer". This sounds like she's got some experience and a god-complex, which is weird, because she's not a surgeon. "These programmers that had jobs programming were obviously just bad, I could have done it by myself in 2 days, even without seeing any of the code first!" Maybe both you and her should learn some humility. But then again, since she's a "real programmer", I'm sure there's absolutely no way her hubris could come back to haunt her one day.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Jan 28th, 2018 at 23:02:44.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I could have done it by myself in 2 days, even without seeing any of the code first!".
    2+ "bait"

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    "Again"? I've never spoken to you.
    I believe he is talking about your post, not a conversation you had with him. But you are smart enough to determine that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    Do you believe the original concepts are just there because their artists like to draw and model things? The game was being developed to look like that. Then it changed directions to look like what we have now. Either they scrapped all the code from the original concept or there is/was still some code in there from over 20 years ago.
    It is likely that the original concept, screenshots could have been "mockups" of the original ideas and thoughts, which over time were redefined BEFORE the code was even in beta, I was part of the beta test before the game was released and it certainly was nothing like the original concept art.


    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    Also, this doesn't sound like she's a "real programmer". This sounds like she's got some experience and a god-complex, which is weird, because she's not a surgeon. "These programmers that had jobs programming were obviously just bad, I could have done it by myself in 2 days, even without seeing any of the code first!" Maybe both you and her should learn some humility. But then again, since she's a "real programmer", I'm sure there's absolutely no way her hubris could come back to haunt her one day.
    Have you spoken with either of them in person, Skype, on the phone, in-game extensively? have you seen her work? have you looked at her degrees/diplomas/achievements to even get somewhat of a solid ground for you to even consider making such a horrible statement? because IT IS a pretty crude, insulting and demeaning way to attempt to make a point. There is a civil way to disagree with someone's argument/statement without being insulting. Try it.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    I believe he is talking about your post, not a conversation you had with him. But you are smart enough to determine that.
    Saying "again" implies that you are repeating something to that person. He has never spoken to me, but I thought you were smart enough to notice that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    It is likely that the original concept, screenshots could have been "mockups" of the original ideas and thoughts, which over time were redefined BEFORE the code was even in beta, I was part of the beta test before the game was released and it certainly was nothing like the original concept art.
    How do you know Windguaerd was in the beta for Anarchy Online? Don't worry, he'll mention it.

    The beta was nothing like the alpha, but I bet your next excuse will be that obviously the alpha was just a mockup since you didn't personally experience it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    Have you spoken with either of them in person, Skype, on the phone, in-game extensively? have you seen her work? have you looked at her degrees/diplomas/achievements to even get somewhat of a solid ground for you to even consider making such a horrible statement? because IT IS a pretty crude, insulting and demeaning way to attempt to make a point. There is a civil way to disagree with someone's argument/statement without being insulting. Try it.
    Have you even read his posts? It doesn't seem like it. Go read them again and tell me how cocky he sounds and how he makes his life partner sound.

    As for being civil, I will reiterate that I suggest you go re-read his posts. I never called into question her abilities, only her (apparent, since all I have his this person's posts to go off) hubris. Perhaps people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

  18. #38
    Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because someone's opinion of themselves, or their work is not to your liking, does that mean you can get on a pedestal and point down at them? Are they so influential in your life that you need to do that? Your mockery is weak at best if not childish.


    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    How do you know Windguaerd was in the beta for Anarchy Online? Don't worry, he'll mention it.
    I spoke from the experience during that aspect of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    The beta was nothing like the alpha, but I bet your next excuse will be that obviously the alpha was just a mockup since you didn't personally experience it.
    Next excuse? so a simple statement based on my experience turned into an excuse? And then you go on to read my mind and predict my next "excuse". It must be quite a feat to be able to predict what someone else is going to do. So I'm sure you already predicted my next line.

    God bless you and have a nice day Esssch.
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  19. #39
    i am waiting for full AO code base in 2 days, else i consider it a civil insult. It tok me 7 years to get close to it..2 days doesn't even cut for perk system.

    Windguaerd you don't need to defend your self just let it go, and hope ADHD medicines never expire.
    Last edited by ByLogic; Aug 13th, 2017 at 20:49:57.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because someone's opinion of themselves, or their work is not to your liking, does that mean you can get on a pedestal and point down at them? Are they so influential in your life that you need to do that? Your mockery is weak at best if not childish.




    I spoke from the experience during that aspect of the game.



    Next excuse? so a simple statement based on my experience turned into an excuse? And then you go on to read my mind and predict my next "excuse". It must be quite a feat to be able to predict what someone else is going to do. So I'm sure you already predicted my next line.

    God bless you and have a nice day Esssch.
    It's remarkable how defensive you're getting. Let's consider the fact that I'm not the one siding with someone disparaging Funcom's programmers with no evidence whatsoever.

    Did you get the chance to go back and read his posts like I suggested? It's okay, we're not talking in real-time, I won't notice the extra time it takes to do so.

    I don't care one way or the other about his opinion of himself or his girlfriend's work. But to take that opinion and use it to put down people who have put in years of work on a project that they've seen very little gratification from seems, to me, to be the childish parts here. Do you agree, or do you think it's acceptable to post things like this (look, I even quoted it for your convenience):

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesher View Post
    I always thought the Funcom's programmers are shiiit (well, to be honest, I thought all their departments except Art maybe are shiiit) and would like to know if I was right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kesher View Post
    The reason why this port took so long was because years later after real programmers, real artists, real game designers created this game, some fake GDs, some impostors like Means, hired poopy, unexperienced and probably uneducated programmers, which couldn't handle this port. But sure, let's all believe programming is some sort of magic, and that AO's code was out of tune, that magician programmers were unable to tap in to it. Also, let's have Vhax tell us where he works now.
    Now, I don't know about you, Wind, but those posts seem quite childish. Especially when he keeps asking where Vhab works now, it almost makes it seem like he's trying to imply that Vhab couldn't get a "real" programming job like his girlfriend, or that if he did then he might start saying the company he now works for is bad. Sure, "2 wrongs don't make a right", but arguing with someone isn't wrong in my eyes, especially when I have been trying to keep it civil (even if you don't see it that way due to my sarcastic nature).

    Honestly, I've never liked you and have often gotten annoyed by you. Part of that is something I mocked in my last post, you like to mention that you were in the beta every chance you get. For instance, even in the document this thread is about you start it by saying that exact thing ("I have played Anarchy Online since it's BETA days back in the year 2000") and then again when I mentioned concept art (notice I didn't bring up the beta, you did). However, I know that you've also been very good for the community and I harbor no ill will towards you. If you honestly believe that Kesher is correct in his assessments, then I'm not sure why you're even here. The game is dead, no one works on it anymore, and according to him no "real" programmers have worked on it for the better part of 2 decades. If you don't agree with him, on the other hand, then I'm not sure why you're attacking me over providing possible reasons the engine may have taken so much longer than it should have.

    Quote Originally Posted by ByLogic View Post
    i am waiting for full AO code base in 2 days, else i consider it a civil insult. It tok me 7 years to get close to it..2 days doesn't even cut for perk system.

    Windguaerd you don't need to defend your self just let it go, and hope ADHD medicines never expire.
    Wait, are these both directed at me? You know my 2 days thing was satirical, right? I was being facetious about the way that other guy described his girlfriend's coding abilities. As for the ADHD thing, you can do better, champ.

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