Taking advantage of a design flaw == exploit!

[Snuble]

It happened again.

Clan takes down a omni tower, waits 20 minutes so the participating attackers can place a controller, and woha, a Omni Control Tower is standing there

And further the base goes straight into 100%. Thats not how it was supposed to work huh? GMs that arrive confirm its a design flaw. Won't do anything, and scutters of faster then a fixer with too much attention.

This is not right. The Omni org involved know that. And won't do anything about it. Sorry, but that sucks!

[silars]

According to the Notum Wars website (at one point, can't find the info anymore...probably removed)...that is EXACTLY how it is supposed to work. Pretty sucky, huh?

What I understand the rules to be:
1. The org that destroys the controller can plant immediately.
2. 20 Mins later, any org other than the original owner can plant.
3. 1 hour later, anyone can plant a controller.

Yes, it is an oversight or design flaw. Omni/Clan/Mom/Dad have petitioned FC to fix this flaw. We've asked them to make it an exploit. We've asked them to say something. FC has been completely silent on this issue. So, what would you propose we do? If you wanna bring up "Honor", I have a thread you should read. "Honor" has been discussed.

The current version of the QB/EQB is a design flaw as well...is using that an exploit? FC has already said the QB/EQB is performing beyond what they wanted...but it is performing within the current rule set. This would be a dangerous precedent to set when using design flaws to catagorize exploits.

I would prefer to see only bugs in the strictest sense...performing against the rule set...held to the exploit test. Like, the org bank credit scandal of 2002. Or something crazy like making it to level 220. Something that goes outside the known rules.

The rules for planting controllers are well-known and were posted on AO's own website. I don't see the case for exploit. I've even heard that FC knew about this during Beta and Test. I think that goes a long way to show how much they cared about it.

The only true bug I've seen with controller planting was when Omni watched Clan plant several controllers only seconds after Omni downed the original. By FC's rules, that should not be possible. FC never said anything about those incidents either.

[Snuble]

Perhaps thats why I'm so carefull in the way I express myself on this? Thrust me, our org channel werent a place for minor when that Omni org ninjad the base...

[____________Fakonamo]

What I understand the rules to be:
1. The org that destroys the controller can plant immediately.
2. 20 Mins later, any org other than the original owner can plant.
3. 1 hour later, anyone can plant a controller.

Maybe they should add in:

after 10 min any org on the same side as the side that destroyed the tower can place a tower.

After all, if one side destroys a base, they deserve to claim it.

[silars]

Actually, I've petitioned and emailed to have this:

1) Org that DOWNS the shields gets immediate rights.
2) 20 mins later...same side winning FACTION gets rights.
3) 1 Hour later, same side losing FACTION can plant.

If you think your org channel was a veritable cacophony of curse words, you should hear the omni ones under the same circumstances.

Please, keep in mind....Rimor Omni learned this trick from the Rimor Clans. We still don't know how the Clans were able to plant immediately after we took a few controllers down. I'm sure some day Omni will learn.

Also, Rimor Omni aren't doing this to return the favor...Omni are doing this to stay alive. Seems our best hope right now is to win the timing battle for the 20 min mark. At least in that case, we have a 50/50 chance of getting the land. Those are the odds we are asking for in the first place.

[__________Armaklaesy]

Originally posted by Silars
Actually, I've petitioned and emailed to have this:

1) Org that DOWNS the shields gets immediate rights.
2) 20 mins later...same side winning FACTION gets rights.
3) 1 Hour later, same side losing FACTION can plant.

I like that. No point in whining about omni building a controller after losing to save a spot for another guild. Omni has been getting whoopass for a while and are fighting for their lives.

I don't agree that ninja taking a spot after clan destroys it is an exploit, because the winning guild had the opportuinty.

BUT!!...

Self terminating a base so that another Omni guild can make a placeholder, when the clanners are stuck getting "Land is not at peace" messages certainly is an exploit!! IMHO.

[Khamuk]

coming from the same faction that abused CC to take down Omni Bases live with it and learn it

[silars]

Arma,

When you terminate a controller, it automatically starts the 20 min timer. Omni and Clan had to wait for the timer. And, at 20 mins, Omni put down the controller. Omni was also getting "the land is not at peace" message too. This worked exactly as FC intended and stated in petitions I have made. If they intended otherwise, I would hope they would say something.

By terminating, the base was never guaranteed to be omni. It is still a 20 min wait and see game. We felt we had a better chance there rather than fighting for the rest. The 20 min game is 50/50. You guys had the same chance to win it as we did. I would hope that is your desire...to make the odds as 50/50 as possible. In some respect, given how many clan members you had there...you probably still had an advantage. We only had one person trying to plant. I would assume you had several.

But, I will repeat myself. This shouldn't even be an issue. The reason for the assault was "to teach Omni a lesson" for attacking AC's meager base (QL200 with 10 towers). If the clans are intending to just obliterate Omni, then be upset and call us exploiters.

I was previously reading the Clans as wanting the Omni forces to show up and play. You can't steamroll all the top level bases...then take them for yourself...then ask them to come back to play. People are smarter than that.

You ask us to come play...we play. You then kick our teeth in. Then want us to come back and play. I would really appreciate you guys making up your minds.

[_____________Meurgen]

Originally posted by Snublefot
Thrust me,

*giggle*

[__________LoveThyBot]

Hello all...

The main point of the matter is that The aggressors side (clan or omni) should have the oppotunity to place their base before the Unfortunate losing side (clan or omni) by taking down the base that has give the aggressors rights to the land no ifs ands or buts...

Of course it seems that is not the way it is... and there really should be some further thought put into the whole base wars etc etc....

[_____________Isoldei]

I feel I need to answer this thread since the guild who placed a tower was Last Hope. What happened within knowlege of LH members was we say Eden was under attack...joined chat and were just trying to get people there to assemble for defense. Tium and I were there and I was just waiting at a location waiting to join defense. Tium was scouting and sent me a tell that controller was down. I wandered in to the area and remember getting tell from Armaklaesy something like "here to ninja?" to which I replied no. At that time I disagreed with something happening in chat and left it, moved from area and gridded. LH as well as some other guilds had gone on full defensive again and so I was not going to be involved in any counter attack plans. I had NO IDEA Teuf had terminated tower, I do not think Tium did either, report was plenty of clan there, I assumed they managed to take it down fast. THERE WAS NO PLAN TO EXPLOIT. Also Tium was also getting messages that land was not in state of peace so had same opportunity clan did. As far as I know it is within rules for ANY org to place at that time. And so yes I will do it every chance I get, done it before, and will do it again, until I am told it is against the rules. This is WAR, Omni is fighting just to keep people awake, online, and active. I didn't want base for myself as I know we could not defend it so I held it until I could allow another to place. This is an issue you should have against FC not Omni, it's what the rules are...not even a bug.

[Snuble]

Isoldei:

Wrong dimension. The dimension we are talking about here is Atlantean.

The tower was taken down by force. The omni replacing the tower was helping on the defense, that means that they did not get PvP flaged (like the aggressors would) and the controller would got to 100% once placed.

Silars: Using a flaw in a game mechanism to gain an advantage you've just lost is fitting perfectly in the definition of an exploit.

A while ago there was funcom poll asking "Do you mind beeing on the loosing side of the war". Most answered No, I doesnt matter. Even with 20% of the population, it shouldn't be hard to get 30 people together of offensive or defensive operations. If your solution is to take advantage of every game mechanism and showing poor ethics, then you Sir got a problem.

DO NOT HIDE BEHIND RP, when its plain simply greed that drives you! I couldn't care less if it was Omni did that or Clan did that, but i my Org did use a tactic like this, it would be the controller down, or me leaving. Simple as that.

[_____________Isoldei]

my mistake then, saw posts from rimor, dont keep up on who is who on BB.

[ntrox1]

Just to add: the bughunter who showed stated that this is indeed a flaw in the design, and that it (the gas going to 100% after the defenders' tower was replaced) was indeed NOT working as intended.

Bearing the above in mind, we still did not win the base. The omni defenders took it, and FC refuses to move on it. We are not happy with this precedence.

[Scorse]

Originally posted by Armaklaesy


BUT!!...

Self terminating a base so that another Omni guild can make a placeholder, when the clanners are stuck getting "Land is not at peace" messages certainly is an exploit!! IMHO.

Not an exploit it is built into the game mechanics, call Norway and complain.

"Land not in a State of Peace" is just that...

I have learned alot from the Clan, most of it ways to not loose. Survival at any cost.

/tower terminate is costly with 30 Turrets and Guardians still standing and Controller still at 100% (Costly in Credits that is...)

However as I have learned from Sun Tzu:
"Which ruler is wise and more able? Which commander is more talented? He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious!"

Ohh and one final note on your Omni spies have been figured out, and are slowly being banned from any Channels that we own.

-S

[Aqua]

Originally posted by Scorse


Ohh and one final note on your Omni spies have been figured out, and are slowly being banned from any Channels that we own.

-S

Anyway to get this list from you so they can also be banned on the PE Bots?

~aqua

[silars]

Snuble,

I wish it was easy to take the high road all the time. However, what do you do when your opponent uses the tactics repeatedly to beat you? Do you change your rules too? Or, do you allow them to use the game mechanics to slow whittle you down?

Although I don't play Atlantean, what happened on Rimor was a result of Omni deciding to use the same tactics the Clans were using. Keep the base at all costs. Even some in the Clan Alliance on Rimor have been guilty of using similar tactics to maintain control of an LC area.

If a game design flaw is an exploit, then you must also promote the banning of all players that use the EQB or QB. FC has already announced this weapon as performing outside what the game was designed...thus a design flaw. I also believe the Manex falls into this web. Thus, by drawing your line here...you have essentially banned 15-20% of the servers. If FC wants to make this an exploit, then they need to come out and say otherwise. Until now, GMs/ARKs/Exploit Team have refused to call this an exploit.

Snuble, btw, we did have 30 omni...it just so happened that there were 80 clan players in the area. I'm sure I don't have to explain to you what happened.

Although I don't think I have a problem, I might. I'm only trying to play on a fair battlefield. I would ask you...if you kept losing bases because of a particular game mechanism tactic...would you start to use the same tactic? Or, would you rather just watch your piece of the pie get smaller each day? Maybe we showed a sign of weakness and succumbed to the easy path...or maybe we just grew so frustrated...it just doesn't matter anymore. I hope you read all the threads pertaining to the situation on Rimor...I think my statements my have some more meaning that I haven't represented here.

I will always agree these rules are broke and unfair. I have even spent time trying to change them. However, at some point, you have to just call them the rules and move on. I could list a ton of examples in sports and games in which people don't like the rules...but they play by them anyways. I believe this is just another such case.

[Krabbus]

may I ask why the omni guy who placed the towers was there in the first place? Shouldn't you clean the area for people as well as towers?

[____________Shiseiji]

The way I see it, if Funcom isn't going to bother fixing it, might as well do it.

And that includes the Higher level buffing, the griefing, and what not.

Sure, the person you do it to isn't going to like it, but all's fair in war. And the winners get to write the rules.

Yeah, it sucks, but until Funcom fixes it, might as well take advantage of the situation.

[ntrox1]

Originally posted by Krabbus
may I ask why the omni guy who placed the towers was there in the first place? Shouldn't you clean the area for people as well as towers?

The problem is, at low level you have a very small PvP range. Everyone defending was out of range of the attackers, and the defenders were still able to place a tower.