for how loong does funcom think we can play without changes?

[Cratertina]

very simple put Aimedshot cap to 40seconds for all but agents. And be done with it.

[Psikie]

Of course, if you think about it logically, you'd realise this is a far cry from the truth.

The truth is, is that weapons, specials per weapon, and damage ranges were intricately thought out for vanilla AO.

Obviously, the original intent of the AO developer was that pistols were NEVER supposed to be supported by aimed shot specials. Pistoleros were supposed to be FLING shot users, and occasionally burst, and some daredevils could even try full auto.

Indeed, I would say that was not only the original intent of the developers, but what made AO unique.

Everything here, even what I clipped +1.

[Obtena]

Of course, if you think about it logically, you'd realise this is a far cry from the truth.

The truth is, is that weapons, specials per weapon, and damage ranges were intricately thought out for vanilla AO.

Luckily, FC has a very pragmatic development approach so logic isn't the most relevant application here.

I'm unsure how you think AO has a very well though out delineation for specials and weapons from the beginning. I think that position is quite a stretch of the imagination considering all the contradictions that exist ingame to it. What is more clear than anything is that weapons exist that have all sorts of weird combos of requirements on them. That broad application is a persuasive argument for the existence of AS pistol, not a restrictive one. Even if there is some delineation intended originally, I don't even think it matters frankly. As logical or academically correct as not having AS pistol might be, it's ignoring the practical prominance of AS in PVP for ranged users who have been pushed towards pistol use by their profession definition. AO isn't a mathematical theory, it's a game that people play and want to be competitive in. Removing AS pistol for these kinds of academic reasons isn't inline with the approach of providing players with the gear that allows them competitive options. It's as simply as I stated it previously ... inclusion of a supported weapon for PVP for profs that had access to none.

[Cratertina]

well, crowdsourcing should work epicly well for fixing AO balance.

Just take a look at threads... every thread pops up for few reasons AS is a problem, AS weapons are a problem, MR is a problem, 1hb/1he enfo perks.. and that's about it. 4 problems of AO balance that are most frequently recongised by the entire playerbase.

This is something funcom could fix in 20 minutes and then fix again with new patch until community agrees it's done well and finaly balanced.

I purpose, following fix.

AS cap at 40seconds for all nonagents.
MR nerf it to +500 AAO
1hb perks usable only if you have 1hb weapon in main hand.
1he perks usable only if you have 1he weapon in main hand.
(so even if you hotswap the weapon they will be locked like it is locked now unless you press them at the same time)

Then in 1-5 months when new patch comes we review changes and see was AS nerfed to much, did evades become a problem, did atroxes start buffing out AAO gear instead of AAD?... Review and patch again.

Slowley we will get it right as a community, all we need is support from game developers and a nice feedbackloop.

Also I'd like a question why was this not done before?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Luckily, FC has a very pragmatic development approach so logic isn't the most relevant application here.

I'm unsure how you think AO has a very well though out delineation for specials and weapons from the beginning.

AODB

do research, then post.

I think that position is quite a stretch of the imagination considering all the contradictions that exist ingame to it.

Contradictions- yes, with inherent flaws.

Like: onehander, for example - clearly a contradiction a one handed shotgun, with good special selection. However, with obvious flaws: poor damage range, poor range. Requires a lot of crit chance to make use of crit damage.

What is more clear than anything is that weapons exist that have all sorts of weird combos of requirements on them.

Things only seem "weird" if you do not understand them.

See original reply.

That broad application is a persuasive argument for the existence of AS pistol, not a restrictive one. Even if there is some delineation intended originally, I don't even think it matters frankly. As logical or academically correct as not having AS pistol might be, it's ignoring the practical prominance of AS in PVP for ranged users who have been pushed towards pistol use by their profession definition. AO isn't a mathematical theory, it's a game that people play and want to be competitive in. Removing AS pistol for these kinds of academic reasons isn't inline with the approach of providing players with the gear that allows them competitive options. It's as simply as I stated it previously ... inclusion of a supported weapon for PVP for profs that had access to none.

Don't be obtuse. You're making conclusions based on false arguments and non-logic. In fact, you said it yourself: logic isn't the most relevant application here.

Pray tell, wise Obtena, if we don't use logic..... what should we use?

Do you have klingon philosophy that will answer this puzzling tale?

[smokex]

Here's some research on pistols with Aimed Shot:

Here's what you're comaplaining about:
Patch 18.01
Troa'Ler Pistol: http://www.xyphos.com/ao/aodb.php?id=281506

According to you pistols with aimed shot didn't exist before that ^.

I'm only going to list the highest quality of each of these weapon lines to save space:

Patch 11.00.00 A.K.A. the beginning of the game.
Premium Aero Borealis Corona: http://www.xyphos.com/ao/aodb.php?id=122633
OT 0125 Machine Pistol: http://www.xyphos.com/ao/aodb.php?id=123908 This one ends at a low ql and has pretty crap damage but when the game started was probably pretty decent and is Pistol, Aimed Shot, Fling Shot, Burst

These were viable guns when the game started but maybe not so much after SL. When AO started, it was intended to be highly customizable with options for people to do whatever they wanted with their characters. The intention was for there to be no cookie cutter best option, not even a best option for a single profession or breed. I learned that by reading interviews with the original game developers. I'm not sure if those interviews exist any more.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Here's some research on pistols with Aimed Shot:

Here's what you're comaplaining about:
Patch 18.01
Troa'Ler Pistol: http://www.xyphos.com/ao/aodb.php?id=281506

According to you pistols with aimed shot didn't exist before that ^.

I'm only going to list the highest quality of each of these weapon lines to save space:

Patch 11.00.00 A.K.A. the beginning of the game.
Premium Aero Borealis Corona: http://www.xyphos.com/ao/aodb.php?id=122633
OT 0125 Machine Pistol: http://www.xyphos.com/ao/aodb.php?id=123908 This one ends at a low ql and has pretty crap damage but when the game started was probably pretty decent and is Pistol, Aimed Shot, Fling Shot, Burst

These were viable guns when the game started but maybe not so much after SL. When AO started, it was intended to be highly customizable with options for people to do whatever they wanted with their characters. The intention was for there to be no cookie cutter best option, not even a best option for a single profession or breed. I learned that by reading interviews with the original game developers. I'm not sure if those interviews exist any more.

Precisely my point.

Note the drawbacks of each of these compared with other weapons available at the time.

[Psikie]

Precisely my point.

Note the drawbacks of each of these compared with other weapons available at the time.

He gotcha there. Those weapons had glaringly obvious drawbacks. There is no drawback to offhand Tro pistols use for a nasty AS with good reg dmg hits.

[Obtena]

Pray tell, wise Obtena, if we don't use logic..... what should we use?

Do you have klingon philosophy that will answer this puzzling tale?

No, it's simply a practical approach to filling a gap for pistol users in PVP. I don't need logic to tell me it's reasonable for pistol users to have a supported PVP weapon do I? I'm sure you will find some math or refer me to a database to tell me that's wrong. Seems to be your M.O. anymore.

[Obtena]

He gotcha there. Those weapons had glaringly obvious drawbacks. There is no drawback to offhand Tro pistols use for a nasty AS with good reg dmg hits.

Really? So let's be clear. PVP pistols sucked in the past. So the logic to removing or nerfing the current one is that it should also suck or not exist? Sorry, that's just nonsense. No other profession has drawbacks to using their PVP weapons. Why that should be different for pistol users is just a fabrication in people's mind. The history of what weapons did or didn't do isn't relevant here. The fact that professions should have access to PVP weapons supported by their toolset is way more important to the competitiveness in PVP than some comparison to throwback relics. AS pistol is completely relevant to the PVP of AO today because of the prominence of AS and the support and predisposition that certain professions have for pistols. The litmus test is pretty simple here ... what other professions don't have weapons for PVP that are supported by their perks? Every single profession should have access to a competitive weapon their toolset supports. It's simply a travesty that pistol users were deficient for so long.

[Psikie]

Really? So let's be clear. PVP pistols sucked in the past. Every single profession should have access to a competitive weapon their toolset supports.

I think that pistol users are by and far support profs. Which have other toolsets for pvp. All profs should NOT be pure firepower weapon heavy for pvp. With AS pistols it puts support profs on similar ground to combat profs for pvp weaponry wise. That should never be the case, AS pistols = all support profs are now turned into fp agents with better nano skills.

[Obtena]

I think that pistol users are by and far support profs. Which have other toolsets for pvp. All profs should NOT be pure firepower weapon heavy for pvp. With AS pistols it puts support profs on similar ground to combat profs for pvp weaponry wise. That should never be the case, AS pistols = all support profs are now turned into fp agents with better nano skills.

Again, I see that as just more mental fabrication; "YOU are a support prof, so you can't have good weapons in PVP". Why not? Just because the existence and use of AS pistol by certain professions offends some player-determined segregation of those professions doesn't mean the pistol is wrong. There is no reason ANY profession shouldn't be competitive with weapons that are supported by their toolset, regardless of their player-decided category. There is also no reason that any profession shouldn't be competitive with any other profession in PVP.

I agree it would be nice if not every prof had to rely on pure firepower. The practical reality is that if they want to compete, they have to. You can't ignore what the practical limitations of PVP are for the profession because of idealistic themes and concepts. AS is king, let's acknowledge that now.

Remove these silly perceptions of what players think AO should be and what you are left with is more professions with better supported weapons in PVP. That's an improvement in the practical approach to the game.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Sorry Obtena. Your argument is completely nullified by one simple statement:

Aimed shot is not the precedent of PVP. Meaning, one cannot assume that PVP is impossible without aimed shot.

Your arguments seem to avoid this controversial concept, but realistically, pistol users don't actually need aimed shot to PVP. If they did, prior to the arrival of the TRoaler, they would use weapons with drawbacks, because the power of the special made up for the drawbacks of the weapon. (Of particular note here, is the onehander).

Obviously, prior to the troaler, the game had better balance. Post troaler, the game has worse balance. It's not difficult to see. Balance can be seen in numbers: the number of people searching for a lust pistol at any time exceeds that for any other weapon in game. The number of people USING the troaler, is greater than any other weapon, at any point previously. Therefore, by frequency of use, we can conclude that troaler is by far the most imbalanced weapon in game and the ONLY method to balance it is by use of it, itself.

This self perpetuating cycle of using imbalanced weapons and specials is only detrimental to game mechanics, experience and causes homogenization of equipment, setups and professions.

Please stop being so damn bull headed and start being productive with your posts.

[Psikie]

I agree it would be nice if not every prof had to rely on pure firepower. The practical reality is that if they want to compete, they have to. You can't ignore what the practical limitations of PVP are for the profession because of idealistic themes and concepts. AS is king, let's acknowledge that now.

I would only agree to this IF, you can agree to a natural progression of your theory.

Since you say it's natural progression that ALL profs be able to wield AS weapons for pvp. Then shouldn't all profs now have access to limber, blockers, and CH? Since "You can't ignore what the practical limitations of PVP are for the profession because of idealistic themes and concepts. CH is king, let's acknowledge that now. "

Or perhaps AO should be a no prof game where anyone can take and choose any 40/30 perks mixing the lines at will? Since "You can't ignore what the practical limitations of PVP are for the profession because of idealistic themes and concepts. Everyone would take the exact same perklines, let's acknowledge that now. "

Maybe even give players the choice to pick what skills they want to be green at character creation. Since "You can't ignore what the practical limitations of PVP are for the profession because of idealistic themes and concepts. Everyone would have the same green skills, let's acknowledge that now. "

At what point does this line of thinking stop? Who decides what's too far or not far enough? Do you not see how far this line of thinking could go? If you think those are ridiculous I feel opening AS up for basically any and all profs is pure folly. You are literally agreeing that everyone needs AS in pvp. I would think there should be less AS or more sacrifice to using it. If your idea of pvp is simply who has the best AS weapon + heals..... I say that sucks.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I would only agree to this IF, you can agree to a natural progression of your theory.

Hear hear.

Well played Sir.

[Obtena]

Aimed shot is not the precedent of PVP. Meaning, one cannot assume that PVP is impossible without aimed shot.

No it's not impossible, but it's certainly not competitive. From a practical perspective, almost every ranged user (and even at points, some melee users) went out of their way to use AS, even if the weapons themselves sucked and weren't supported by their skills. If that's not a case for how prevalent AS is (and it's relative strength to other offensive attacks), then nothing is. Bottom line is that if AS is so unnecessary to compete as you claim, why do most ranged players use it? There is only one answer to that ... because AS is broken. When ANY class can pick up an AS weapon and plug you for thousands of damage, there is something wrong with that. It only gets worse the more capable a profession is when using AS. That has NOTHING to do with the existence of an AS pistol. This has been a problem ever since doctors were picking up caterwauls. The fact that FC has allowed this to persist is something of a forced acceptance of what AS means to many professions. I can't even imagine how poor some professions offensive capability would be in PVP without AS. I don't even get how something like that can be debated at this point in AO. It borders ridiculous.

but realistically, pistol users don't actually need aimed shot to PVP. If they did, prior to the arrival of the TRoaler, they would use weapons with drawbacks, because the power of the special made up for the drawbacks of the weapon. (Of particular note here, is the onehander).

Are you serious? Pistol users DID use weapons with drawbacks before TRO ... namely, weapons that weren't part of their perklines. I know I didn't imagine doctors with Tigers, Engi's with onehanders, people with Snakemaster, KEC 3, etc ... So yes, AS is THAT good that they equipped weapons not part of their toolset so they could PVP effectively. Hell, even MA's used bows, have a bow perkline and didn't even perk it!!! I can only shake my head at this point. It's like you didn't PVP in AO for like 8 years or something.

I think if your going to ignore this collective experience of the playerbase dependences on AS in PVP and persist with the idea many professions don't need AS to be competitive in PVP, I will simply leave you to read math texts and sift through databases to convince yourself you are right.

[Obtena]

At what point does this line of thinking stop? Who decides what's too far or not far enough? Do you not see how far this line of thinking could go? If you think those are ridiculous I feel opening AS up for basically any and all profs is pure folly. You are literally agreeing that everyone needs AS in pvp. I would think there should be less AS or more sacrifice to using it. If your idea of pvp is simply who has the best AS weapon + heals..... I say that sucks.

You deserve honesty. If I could use AS to some degree on EVERY profession I played in PVP with no risk (like not being able to swap back to my other weapons due to drains for instance) and not have it affect my PVM performance, I would in a second. It's THAT F'N good. Swap times don't make that practical anymore but there was a time when people did exactly that with no consequence and they were proclaimed as innovators of PVP. Again, testament to how awesome AS is as an offensive PVP attack.

Dont' get me wrong, I agree that the scenario you talk about sucks but removing AS pistol is not even close to a solution to that problem. Allowing AS to persist as it is now without the AS pistol ingame leads to the exact same situation (I shouldn't need to remind you that the professions that use AS pistol now were using some sort of really good AS weapons prior to it, or in the case of Advy's, already had more than capable PVP alternative with 1HE). If you want less AS or more sacrifice to using AS, removing select weapons doesn't do that.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

No it's not impossible, but it's certainly not competitive. From a practical perspective, almost every ranged user (and even at points, some melee users) went out of their way to use AS, even if the weapons themselves sucked and weren't supported by their skills. If that's not a case for how prevalent AS is (and it's relative strength to other offensive attacks), then nothing is. Bottom line is that if AS is so unnecessary to compete as you claim, why do most ranged players use it? There is only one answer to that ... because AS is broken. When ANY class can pick up an AS weapon and plug you for thousands of damage, there is something wrong with that. It only gets worse the more capable a profession is when using AS. That has NOTHING to do with the existence of an AS pistol. This has been a problem ever since doctors were picking up caterwauls. The fact that FC has allowed this to persist is something of a forced acceptance of what AS means to many professions. I can't even imagine how poor some professions offensive capability would be in PVP without AS. I don't even get how something like that can be debated at this point in AO. It borders ridiculous.

Good point. I agree. But the Troaler does nothing to LESSEN the impact. Practically speaking, it only worsens it, which I think is fundamentally what we're discussing - the overall impact and OP'ness of the Troaler.

Are you serious? Pistol users DID use weapons with drawbacks ... namely, weapons that weren't part of their perklines. I know I didn't imagine doctors with Tigers, Engi's with onehanders, people with Snakemaster, KEC 3, etc ... So yes, AS is THAT good that they equipped weapons not part of their toolset so they could PVP effectively. Hell, even MA's used bows, have a bow perkline and didn't even perk it!!! I can only shake my head at this point. It's like you didn't PVP in AO for like 8 years or something.

I think if your going to ignore this collective experience of the playerbase dependences on AS in PVP and persist with the idea many professions don't need AS to be competitive in PVP, I will simply leave you to read math texts and sift through databases to convince yourself you are right.

Aha, but you're making an huge unspoken assumption: You're comparing today's PVP with yesteryears PVP.

Yes, many professions DID use an unsupported Weapon with aimedshot to "excel" at PVP. But is this really the truth? Certainly some professions were capable of utilizing it - specifically those who had a substantial toolset unrelated to weapons.

Some that come to mind are:

* Doctors: equip an AS weap, and your entire nano/healing toolset is unchanged
* Traders: equip an AS weap, and your entire nano/debuff toolset is unchanged
* MPs: equip an AS weap, and your entire nano/debuff/pet toolset is unchanged
* Engineers: equip an AS weap, and your entire nano/debuff/pet toolset is unchanged
* crats: same thing

But, do not forget, Obtena, that many profs were very strong without AS weapons, and, weren't out of balance because the AS weapons used by (for example) the profs just listed were unsupported. In otherwords, the lack of support is what made it balanced.

Add to the mix a highly potent AS weapon that is completely supported by the toolset, and you have the problem we have today.

I'm not going to try to argue that AS isn't a highly effective means of doing damage. It is, and it so because the special is reliable. It was balanced becuase the special was powerful paired with weak weapons. It is imbalanced now because it's a powerful special paired with an insanely powerful weapon, AND the peripheral toolset is not ONLY not diminished by the use of it, but it is in fact bolstered by it.

These points I've raised do not even take into account pistol perks, normals, and potential for procs. Adding all of these to the mix is just like saying: if you don't roll a supprot prof and use troaler, you will fail.

[Ciex]

He gotcha there. Those weapons had glaringly obvious drawbacks. There is no drawback to offhand Tro pistols use for a nasty AS with good reg dmg hits.

Troller pistol cant be used as an offhand so actually there is a serious drawaback. Thats why so many people still use craphander - mainly solds, fixers, some engis.

[Obtena]

It is imbalanced now because it's a powerful special paired with an insanely powerful weapon, AND the peripheral toolset is not ONLY not diminished by the use of it, but it is in fact bolstered by it.

I don't think that is different than before TRO-era. Professions had insanely power AS weapons before the TRO existed ... better if my memory serves me correctly. The key difference here isn't the weapon itself, it's access to perks and there is nothing unreasonable about getting offensive perks in PVP. Not sure what peripheral toolset you are referring to that is bolstered by using Tro pistol. I can't honestly think of anyway the Tro bolsters any particular toolset these profesions have. No more so than any other typical PVP weapon bolsters the toolsets of the professions that use them. The only problem I have with pistol users in PVP is the 80% checks on the perks. It's not logical OR practical. Not even sure if it's effective for most of those professions anyways.

There really isn't anything exceptional here. You have a profession, they have a weapon with a good special for PVP. That weapon is inline with their perks. They still get access to their other tools like nanos and such. This describes almost every profession ingame. Why is that completely unreasonable that pistol users can't be under that umbrella too? It's just double standard BS.